# Oh those wacky Mormons! **URL:** \ **Category:** The BBQ Pit\ **Created:** [November 11, 2008, 3:54am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/oh-those-wacky-mormons/472158 "2008-11-11T03:54:45Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 5
**Author:** ![DanBlather](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/f4b2a3/32.png) [@DanBlather](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/DanBlather)\ **Post date:** [November 11, 2008, 11:26pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/oh-those-wacky-mormons/472158/81 "2008-11-11T23:26:50Z")
I just grabbed some recent LDS obituaries. In my capacity as an atheist I hereby enroll the following people: Herald Mickey Quigley Dirk J. Roothoff Lois Vida Mayoh Sweat as official atheists. I’m sure neither they nor their families will mind. ---
**Author:** ![Inner\_Stickler](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/inner_stickler/32/318_2.png) [@Inner\_Stickler](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Inner_Stickler)\ **Post date:** [November 12, 2008, 12:57am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/oh-those-wacky-mormons/472158/82 "2008-11-12T00:57:28Z")
> [@Kyla](#): > > My understanding of LDS Heaven, which comes from studying with a couple of missionaries when I was in high school (I had some good LDS friends and wanted to know more about their beliefs), is that there are three levels of heaven. I forget the actual names, but basically there’s Awesome Heaven, Really Awesome Heaven, and Super Duper Awesome Heaven. Pretty much everyone gets to go to one of the heavens. Only if you’re a complete jerk do you go to Outer Darkness. Telestial, Terrestrial, and Celestial? ---
**Author:** ![Snowboarder\_Bo](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/snowboarder_bo/32/229_2.png) [@Snowboarder\_Bo](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Snowboarder_Bo)\ **Post date:** [November 12, 2008, 1:06am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/oh-those-wacky-mormons/472158/83 "2008-11-12T01:06:49Z")
> [@DanBlather](#): > > When people say they’ll pray for me I say I’ll think for them. I’m totally going to steal this line. TYVM. 😃 ---
**Author:** ![Jodi](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/j/7feea3/32.png) [@Jodi](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Jodi)\ **Post date:** [November 12, 2008, 1:17am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/oh-those-wacky-mormons/472158/84 "2008-11-12T01:17:36Z")
> [@Kyla](#): > > My understanding of LDS Heaven, which comes from studying with a couple of missionaries when I was in high school (I had some good LDS friends and wanted to know more about their beliefs), is that there are three levels of heaven. I forget the actual names, but basically there’s Awesome Heaven, Really Awesome Heaven, and Super Duper Awesome Heaven. Pretty much everyone gets to go to one of the heavens. Only if you’re a complete jerk do you go to Outer Darkness. I think this is correct and would therefore call attention to your correction. The three LDS levels of heaven are (from least to greatest) the “Telestial,” the “Terrestial,” and the “Celestial.” I _think_ now, based on no more authority that reasonable Google-fu, that LDS baptism is only necessary for the Celestial Kingdom. I apologize for having misrepresented this before. ---
**Author:** ![Q.E.D](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/q/51bf81/32.png) [@Q.E.D](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Q.E.D)\ **Post date:** [November 12, 2008, 1:19am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/oh-those-wacky-mormons/472158/85 "2008-11-12T01:19:45Z")
> [@DanBlather](#): > > I’m sure neither they nor their families will mind. I can’t speak for the families, but I’m quite certain the deceased won’t mind a bit. ---
**Author:** ![Jackmannii](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/jackmannii/32/311_2.png) [@Jackmannii](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Jackmannii)\ **Post date:** [November 12, 2008, 1:21am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/oh-those-wacky-mormons/472158/86 "2008-11-12T01:21:23Z")
> [@CalMeacham](#): > > Nope, since I wasn’t making the argument that “gee, it;'s been done so long it _can’t_ be offensive”. No parallel. Thou forgettest thine own words from earlier in this thread. > [@Cal Meacham](#): > > The LDS have been at this for over 150 years, and it hasn’t exactly been a Big Secret for qute a while now. I’m a bit surprised everyone’s getting upset over it at the same time, just now. > [@Cal](#): > > Of course, as I’ve stated before, I _don’t_ see anything offensive about the practice. The ability to recognize and respect the feelings of others is a common, but not universal human trait. > [@Cal](#): > > Finally, comnsidering that they do this pretty much in secret, how can you know if they’re doing it or not? Refer to the original article linked to in the OP. They keep a database of this foolishness, and an independent Salt Lake City-based researcher found abundant evidence that Mormons were resubmitting names of posthumously baptised Jews that they had earlier removed, plus adding new ones. > [@Cal](#): > > More to the point, how do you know that other religious groups aren’t doing something you’ll find equally offensive? When I was growing up Catholic, the nuns used to pray for the Conversion of the Jews. Hate to burst your “they’re picking on the Mormons” bubble, but this type of thing has been the source of discussions between Jews and the Catholic hierarchy in recent years. It is not appreciated, but is not as bad as pretending that Holocaust victims are a willing sub-genre of Mormons. ---
**Author:** ![coffeecat](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/coffeecat/32/3405_2.png) [@coffeecat](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/coffeecat)\ **Post date:** [November 12, 2008, 1:46am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/oh-those-wacky-mormons/472158/87 "2008-11-12T01:46:03Z")
Where is it written that you can’t go to heaven if you’re not baptized, anyway? ---
**Author:** ![CairoCarol](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/cairocarol/32/3825_2.png) [@CairoCarol](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/CairoCarol)\ **Post date:** [November 12, 2008, 1:46am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/oh-those-wacky-mormons/472158/88 "2008-11-12T01:46:44Z")
> [@](#): > > originally posted by **Malthus** : > Doesn’t offend me personally, but I can certainly understand why it would offend others - even if it is effectively meaningless (unless you are a Mormon). It is disrespectful of the living to monkey with the memory of their dead ancestors, even if it is only in symbolic ways. I misread this as “It is disrespectful of the living monkey…” and was very curious to see where THAT sentence was going to end up. Damn it. ---
**Author:** ![E-Sabbath](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/e19adc/32.png) [@E-Sabbath](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/E-Sabbath)\ **Post date:** [November 12, 2008, 2:55am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/oh-those-wacky-mormons/472158/89 "2008-11-12T02:55:20Z")
You know, this really isn’t any big deal. Who cares if Fred Phelps protests at your grandmother’s funeral. She’s dead, it’s only symbolic. I really don’t see any major difference between Fred’s shitting on people’s memories and this. It’s also a lot like people coming over to your house and having sex in your bed when you’re not home. You may never see the evidence, but just knowing it happens is a very deep and personal violation. It’s extending something very personal into someone else’s family without their acceptance or even consent. Like a family of nudists deciding to walk around the normal beach. Oh, it’s natural. It doesn’t harm anyone. But, by goodness, it’s a breach of privacy and a breach of civility. It’s in bad taste, and it usurps the choice of other people to deal with a flaky-ass religion. ---
**Author:** ![vison](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/v/e47774/32.png) [@vison](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/vison)\ **Post date:** [November 12, 2008, 4:03am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/oh-those-wacky-mormons/472158/90 "2008-11-12T04:03:47Z")
I would have thought that god could manage to sort it all out but I guess I was wrong. It’s very, very hard to take this nonsense seriously but evidently some people are offended and their offense is sufficient reason for the LDS to stop doing it. Tell me something, though. Why do Mormons all have such big, white, shiny teeth? All the Mormons I know have them. Is the “D” in LDS for “Dentist”? ---
**Author:** ![Polycarp](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/p/82dd89/32.png) [@Polycarp](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Polycarp)\ **Post date:** [November 12, 2008, 4:25am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/oh-those-wacky-mormons/472158/91 "2008-11-12T04:25:20Z")
> [@Q.E.D](#): > > I can’t speak for the families, but I’m quite certain the deceased won’t mind a bit. You have communication with the dead? Or it’s your firm conviction that your opinion is true? It’s a distinction I always try to keep in mind in discussing matters of religion – it would be courteous if those coing from other points of view were to do so, as well. ---
**Author:** ![chorpler](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/chorpler/32/2888_2.png) [@chorpler](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/chorpler)\ **Post date:** [November 12, 2008, 4:52am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/oh-those-wacky-mormons/472158/92 "2008-11-12T04:52:10Z")
> [@Jodi](#): > > I think this is correct and would therefore call attention to your correction. The three LDS levels of heaven are (from least to greatest) the “Telestial,” the “Terrestial,” and the “Celestial.” I _think_ now, based on no more authority that reasonable Google-fu, that LDS baptism is only necessary for the Celestial Kingdom. I apologize for having misrepresented this before. Yeah, the correction is pretty much correct. In Mormon doctrine: Right after death, our spirits go to either “Spirit Prison” or “Paradise,” a temporary holding zone. That’s where Jesus went to preach and organize the dead into a hierarchy of leaders and missionaries and the like when he was dead before he was resurrected. The people in Paradise preach to the people in Spirit Prison, trying to convert them. If the spirits do choose to join up, they still need to have baptism performed for them on earth, so just to be safe, the still-living Mormons baptize everybody they find out about. (And yes, I have heard speculation many times that this is necessary because there isn’t any water in the spirit realm. But usually it’s just said to be an ordinance of the flesh rather than of the spirit.) Eventually, Jesus will come back, reign on earth for a thousand years, and finally all the spirits will be gathered up and resurrected, which involves joining them forever to their physical bodies again. Everybody will then be immortal. Then we’ll have the final judgment and get assigned to our final destinations. Almost everybody goes to the telestial kindom, the least glorious of the three kingdoms of glory, comparable to the brightness of the stars. Murderers, adulterers, liars, and the majority of humanity go here. They’ll have the presence of the Holy Ghost, but not Jesus or the Father. Really good people, including good Mormons who didn’t undergo temple ordinances or who didn’t keep their temple covenants, go to the terrestrial kingdom. This kingdom of glory is comparable to the brightness of the moon. Also, lots of Mormons believe this is where there orthodox Christian idea of “heaven” comes from. They’ll be with Jesus and the Holy Ghost, but not the Father. Mormons who have gone through the temple ordinances and have lived their lives in the right way go to the celestial kingdom. If they were eternally married in the temple, they are “exalted” in highest level of the celestial kingdom and become gods themselves, creating new spirit children and helping them along the same process. Otherwise, they go to a lower level of the celestial kingdom and end up as ministering angels helping those who were exalted. Also, they’ll be able to be in the presence of the Father, Jesus, and the Holy Ghost. You don’t just have to be baptized to get to the celestial kingdom; you have to have the temple ordinances, such as endowment and eternal marriage, performed for you as well. Mormons also do those ordinances for the dead in their temples, but baptism for the dead gets a lot more attention because it’s faster, so lots more people get baptized, and because baptism is more familiar to the people who object to this whole practice. Only Lucifer and his angels, and a few really bad people who lived on earth (people who knew “denied the holy ghost,” which doesn’t have an official meaning but has been applied to apostate Mormons by at least a few beliving Mormons), will end up in Outer Darkness, which is not one of the kingdoms of glory and will be really bad. Of course, there’s a whole other part about where Lucifer and his angels came from involving where we were before we were born, but that’s not relevant to the baptism-for-the-dead doctrine. ---
**Author:** ![Snowboarder\_Bo](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/snowboarder_bo/32/229_2.png) [@Snowboarder\_Bo](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Snowboarder_Bo)\ **Post date:** [November 12, 2008, 4:57am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/oh-those-wacky-mormons/472158/93 "2008-11-12T04:57:45Z")
TYVM, **chorpler**. That was an excellent post. ---
**Author:** ![Great\_Dave](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/g/46a35a/32.png) [@Great\_Dave](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Great_Dave)\ **Post date:** [November 12, 2008, 6:14am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/oh-those-wacky-mormons/472158/94 "2008-11-12T06:14:39Z")
I thought Mormons got their own planet after death, and that you had to populate it, hence the need for multiple wives. ---
**Author:** ![anya\_marie](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/ebca7d/32.png) [@anya\_marie](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/anya_marie)\ **Post date:** [November 12, 2008, 7:40am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/oh-those-wacky-mormons/472158/95 "2008-11-12T07:40:51Z")
I don’t think that a prayer for anyone is as offensive as this performance of a ritual on behalf of another,\*\* without prior knowledge of the family of the deceased. \*\* The geneology work is laudable PROVIDED that there are no distortions of any facts or religions of the deceased. Anything else should be unacceptable. I know my grandmother’s parents were Jehovahs’ Witnesses, I was saved in a baptist chuch but am currently agnostic. I haven’t been back in that church since 1994, wouldn’t go back to being a baptist even for a large pile of money. And if i was in a bad mood, and had to hear this from someone I’ve never met before, i would probably, cuss them out and tell them that i’d rather burn in hell than go to Mormon Heaven. ---
**Author:** ![TwistofFate](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/cdc98d/32.png) [@TwistofFate](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/TwistofFate)\ **Post date:** [November 12, 2008, 12:16pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/oh-those-wacky-mormons/472158/96 "2008-11-12T12:16:06Z")
How do the mormons know if the Soul rejected the chance to be Mormon? Does god call them up and tell them to amend their records? ---
**Author:** ![Subway\_Prophet](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/ecb155/32.png) [@Subway\_Prophet](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Subway_Prophet)\ **Post date:** [November 12, 2008, 1:39pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/oh-those-wacky-mormons/472158/97 "2008-11-12T13:39:02Z")
> [@TwistofFate](#): > > How do the mormons know if the Soul rejected the chance to be Mormon? > > Does god call them up and tell them to amend their records? No. See post #19. Do try to keep up. The practice merely gives the deceased the availability to receive the ordinance posthumously if the deceased so chooses. I know it’s fun to kick and poke at religious types here, but I think far too many people are attributing malice where stupidity occurred. The real issue here is that the church has officially declared that they will no longer do Baptisms for the Dead for Jewish persons (particularly those who were involved with the Holocaust and other widespread acts of antisemitism), then eventually started to do them anyway. The church, by actions of a small number of its members, broke a promise. The problem is, that the records are submitted by ordinary members of the LDS church, and the ordinances are performed by ordinary members of the LDS church… and like any large group members don’t always follow the dictates of the organization. Not to mention that the set of data we’re talking about is enormous (we’re talking about the largest genealogical database in the world), and the methods to prevent ordinances done for people whose families object to it are never sufficient. And there will always be members who submit names just to be a smartass. By way of example, I understand that Elvis Presley has had this ordinance more than once. George Washington has had enough proxy baptisms to start his own Olympic swim team. Personally, as a member of the LDS church and as someone who has performed this ordinance, I would much prefer to keep the activity within the realm of members’ ancestors and their families. If someone else objects, it should be between the families involved. ---
**Author:** ![Shrinking\_Violet](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/df705f/32.png) [@Shrinking\_Violet](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Shrinking_Violet)\ **Post date:** [November 12, 2008, 1:58pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/oh-those-wacky-mormons/472158/98 "2008-11-12T13:58:08Z")
> [@ntucker](#): > > Out of curiosity, should atheists be similarly offended that good Christians pray for their eternal souls? As a lifelong atheist I used to \*cringe \*if someone said they would ‘pray’ for me … but as I’ve got older I’ve realised it’s just their way of wishing me well in terms which mean something to them - and I appreciate that. However … > [@DanBlather](#): > > When people say they’ll pray for me I say I’ll think for them. This gets another vote from me. 😃 ---
**Author:** ![TwistofFate](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/cdc98d/32.png) [@TwistofFate](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/TwistofFate)\ **Post date:** [November 12, 2008, 2:06pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/oh-those-wacky-mormons/472158/99 "2008-11-12T14:06:12Z")
> [@Subway\_Prophet](#): > > No. See post #19. Do try to keep up. > > The practice merely gives the deceased the availability to receive the ordinance posthumously if the deceased so chooses. What happens to the LDS records? After a baptism ceremony, are the decendants now marked as “mormon”? Nothing in post 19 mentions this. while CalMeacham does say there are no attempts to alter history, In the eyes of the LDS and their records, are the descendants now mormon? ---
**Author:** ![CalMeacham](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/calmeacham/32/35_2.png) [@CalMeacham](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/CalMeacham)\ **Post date:** [November 12, 2008, 2:08pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/oh-those-wacky-mormons/472158/100 "2008-11-12T14:08:37Z")
> [@](#): > > Thou forgettest thine own words from earlier in this thread. Thou must read for comprehension – I said, again, that this was not an argument for allowing the practice. I’m still surprised that it’s only become an issue now. I don’t see the contradiction. > [@](#): > > Hate to burst your “they’re picking on the Mormons” bubble, but this type of thing has been the source of discussions between Jews and the Catholic hierarchy in recent years. I haven’t got a “they’re picking on the Mormons” bubble. I’m just saying that people of various religions are doing this sort of thing all the time. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/oh-those-wacky-mormons/472158.md?page=4) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/oh-those-wacky-mormons/472158.md?page=6)