# Oh, you "poor" Americans **URL:** \ **Category:** The BBQ Pit\ **Created:** [July 11, 2006, 9:26am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/oh-you-poor-americans/363995 "2006-07-11T09:26:58Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 3
**Author:** ![Malthus](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/85f322/32.png) [@Malthus](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Malthus)\ **Post date:** [July 11, 2006, 3:24pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/oh-you-poor-americans/363995/41 "2006-07-11T15:24:44Z")
[QUOTE=MrDibble] Of course, no-one’s ever pitted an aspect of human nature before. [/QUOTE] But is this particular one Pit-worthy? That is the question. I’m not sure what is so bad about having a purely subjective idea of poverty. ---
**Author:** ![MrDibble](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/mrdibble/32/114_2.png) [@MrDibble](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/MrDibble)\ **Post date:** [July 11, 2006, 3:26pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/oh-you-poor-americans/363995/42 "2006-07-11T15:26:37Z")
[QUOTE=bump] Yeah, really! I was thinking that if you only make $10 a day at “hard, physical graft”, then you must be one sorry-ass crook! [/QUOTE] Here, one meaning of “grafting” is “working”. ---
**Author:** ![monstro](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/ba9def/32.png) [@monstro](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/monstro)\ **Post date:** [July 11, 2006, 3:27pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/oh-you-poor-americans/363995/43 "2006-07-11T15:27:19Z")
[QUOTE=MrDibble] (my bolding) Oh, but they can. Just because they are sheeple doesn’t absolve them from getting a sense of perspective. [/QUOTE] Right, but that involves education. And sheeple, by definition, don’t educate themselves. Oooh, Lawdy, I don’t wanna be one of them sheeples! They get blamed for everything! ---
**Author:** ![MrDibble](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/mrdibble/32/114_2.png) [@MrDibble](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/MrDibble)\ **Post date:** [July 11, 2006, 3:30pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/oh-you-poor-americans/363995/44 "2006-07-11T15:30:48Z")
[QUOTE=Malthus] But is this particular one Pit-worthy? That is the question. [/QUOTE] Obviously, I think it is. Sometimes, I think Westerners need reminding what it’s like in the 3rd World. Just to keep you on your toes. [QUOTE=Malthus] I’m not sure what is so bad about having a purely subjective idea of poverty. [/QUOTE] Ask Marie Antoinette. 😉 ---
**Author:** ![MrDibble](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/mrdibble/32/114_2.png) [@MrDibble](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/MrDibble)\ **Post date:** [July 11, 2006, 3:35pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/oh-you-poor-americans/363995/45 "2006-07-11T15:35:33Z")
[QUOTE=monstro] Right, but that involves education. And sheeple, by definition, don’t educate themselves. [/QUOTE] Hence this thread. ---
**Author:** ![Malthus](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/85f322/32.png) [@Malthus](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Malthus)\ **Post date:** [July 11, 2006, 3:45pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/oh-you-poor-americans/363995/46 "2006-07-11T15:45:34Z")
[QUOTE=MrDibble] Obviously, I think it is. Sometimes, I think Westerners need reminding what it’s like in the 3rd World. Just to keep you on your toes. Ask Marie Antoinette. 😉 [/QUOTE] Heh. Let then eat Doritos. 😃 This reminds me of a family anecdote. My grandmother, when _she_ was a little girl, used to be told by her mom to eat all the veggies on her plate every day. If she complained, she was told to “remember the starving Armenians!”. She had no clue who the Armenians were, or why they were starving, or how eating her veggies could help them (she asked once, reasonably, if the veggies could not be _shipped_ to the Armenians to address their hunger, and was told not to be a smart-ass). It became a bit of a family saying, even working its way into print (my aunt is an author). This thread and the saying have a certain resemblance. 😉 ---
**Author:** ![MrDibble](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/mrdibble/32/114_2.png) [@MrDibble](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/MrDibble)\ **Post date:** [July 11, 2006, 3:56pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/oh-you-poor-americans/363995/47 "2006-07-11T15:56:19Z")
[QUOTE=Malthus] This thread and the saying have a certain resemblance. [/QUOTE] Well, I’m not as unreasonable as your great-grandmother. If you did want to ship your extra, unwanted dollars to starving Africans… …did I menmtion it’s been many hours since lunchtime? ---
**Author:** ![Malthus](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/85f322/32.png) [@Malthus](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Malthus)\ **Post date:** [July 11, 2006, 3:58pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/oh-you-poor-americans/363995/48 "2006-07-11T15:58:08Z")
[QUOTE=MrDibble] Well, I’m not as unreasonable as your great-grandmother. If you did want to ship your extra, unwanted dollars to starving Africans… …did I menmtion it’s been many hours since lunchtime? [/QUOTE] 😃 The offer is limited to vegitables I don’t like on my plate. 😉 ---
**Author:** ![NinetyWt](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/n/cc9497/32.png) [@NinetyWt](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/NinetyWt)\ **Post date:** [July 11, 2006, 3:58pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/oh-you-poor-americans/363995/49 "2006-07-11T15:58:16Z")
[QUOTE=MrDibble] I’m not saying there are no real poor in USA, for instance. I just doubt anyone posting to the Dope are it. [/QUOTE] I read the other thread, and I honestly don’t see anyone making that assertion - that they are poor. My perception is that it is a discussion of whether the “poverty limit” of $18,000 is valild. And leave Mississippi out of it. We gots shoes ! 😛 ---
**Author:** ![monstro](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/ba9def/32.png) [@monstro](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/monstro)\ **Post date:** [July 11, 2006, 3:59pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/oh-you-poor-americans/363995/50 "2006-07-11T15:59:44Z")
[QUOTE=MrDibble] My inspiration was my general impression, not any one person. I’ve already said that . [/quote] And I’m questioning the validity of your general impression. It seems to me that the very notion of Americans discussing poverty is what rose your ire, not _how_ they were definining it. There were people who ranted about their guzzling gas machines, but that was a hijack; none of those people were saying the cost of gas should determine who’s poor. > [@](#): > > No, it’s emotional rhetoric. Did you mistake this forum for GD? Being in the Pit does not mean you can be inconsistent and get away with it. You told us foolish Westerners all what poverty is and is not, and then you backtracked and said that’s not what you were doing at all. Are you too full of emotions to discuss whether or not you might be seeing this topic a bid narrow-mindedly? Or do you just want to rant unimpeded? > [@](#): > > I just disagree with the level people in that thread were setting it at. I was choosing to disagree rather more forcefully than I felt GD would allow. Hence this thread. I don’t understand why you can’t just post your opinion in GD. If you disagree what was said, why not construct an argument and defend it? It doesn’t have to be backed up by cites. Just post a rebuttal to what you believe was wrong. It’s not that hard. I don’t find anything objectional in that thread, and that includes the posts by **Sam Stone** , who I usually do not agree with. I wish you’d be brave enough to post something specific rather than hiding behind that “general impressions” bit. Because it seems to me you’re picking on that thread rather unfairly. > [@](#): > > I could factor in a lot of outside influences like Oprah shows on poor Americans and other previous threads on the Dope where people were all “woe is me 'cus gas is, like, $3.50”, but that thread was the one that finally motivated me. If people are seriously saying they are poor because they can’t drive they’re SUVs anymore, then I agree that that’s ridiculous. If people are saying that they are feeling a major squeeze because of high gas prices, then I don’t think that’s all that bad. People should feel free to complain without worrying about who has it worse. I’ll tell you: I factored out my budget and realized that I really can’t afford to fly up to Maryland to visit my sister this summer, as I had planned. This doesn’t make me poor in an absolute sense, but I’m not going to avoid saying “I’m too poor to visit my sister” just because someone in Calcutta is dying of malnutrition in a trash-strewn gutter. Yeah, I know you never said I should censor myself like this. But that was the _general impression_ I got from your OP. (But I do agree with you overall: People whine too much about what they don’t have. We often forget how fortunate we are, and I do think Americans do this way more than we should. I just disagree that the Dopers in that thread deserve your lecturing. I’m not trying to give you a hard time; I’m simply defending a thread that I felt had some value.) ---
**Author:** ![Malthus](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/85f322/32.png) [@Malthus](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Malthus)\ **Post date:** [July 11, 2006, 4:00pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/oh-you-poor-americans/363995/51 "2006-07-11T16:00:36Z")
[QUOTE=NinetyWt] And leave Mississippi out of it. We gots shoes ! 😛 [/QUOTE] Yes, but most states possess more than a single pair per state. 😛 ---
**Author:** ![Odesio](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/odesio/32/20003_2.png) [@Odesio](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Odesio)\ **Post date:** [July 11, 2006, 4:16pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/oh-you-poor-americans/363995/52 "2006-07-11T16:16:31Z")
[QUOTE=MrDibble] Hey, I’m all about the bitching, no problem with that. But you wouldn’t call it _poverty_, would you? [/QUOTE] Depends on what neighborhood I’m living in. Relative to some other nations and the Mississipi Delta I’ll never be living in poverty (knock on wood). Relative to other people in the United States, maybe. Marc ---
**Author:** ![saoirse](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/5daacb/32.png) [@saoirse](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/saoirse)\ **Post date:** [July 11, 2006, 4:32pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/oh-you-poor-americans/363995/53 "2006-07-11T16:32:26Z")
I think you’re missing a couple things, though. There are people who eat once a day and still have three-bedroom apartments, or have cars that get 15 mpg (or less, if you’ve got a real POS). If you want a steady job in this country, you almost need a postal address. There are a few jobs you can get without one, that don’t involve standing on a corner waiting for someone in truck to drive up, but not many. And 7 miles to get to work? I used to walk that far to work to save the busfare (which was $1.25. If it had been 20 cents, I wouldn’t have). I still have a can of government beef from those days. Anyway, it’s probably been 30 years since the mean distance from work in America was under 7 miles. No, I’m not saying Americans have it as tough as third-world shantytown residents. We have a welfare state precisely to prevent that. But it’s still tough, tougher perhaps than an ordinary poster on the internet might imagine. ---
**Author:** ![MrDibble](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/mrdibble/32/114_2.png) [@MrDibble](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/MrDibble)\ **Post date:** [July 11, 2006, 4:33pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/oh-you-poor-americans/363995/54 "2006-07-11T16:33:56Z")
[QUOTE=monstro] And I’m questioning the validity of your general impression. It seems to me that the very notion of Americans discussing poverty is what rose your ire, not _how_ they were definining it. [/QUOTE] Say not just “Americans”, but “not really poor Americans”, and you’d be right. Look, I’m not going off on a rant about Ugly Americans here, just saying : “Do you know what you sound like to me? Get some perspective.” Only with invective. [QUOTE=monstro] There were people who ranted about their guzzling gas machines, but that was a hijack; none of those people were saying the cost of gas should determine who’s poor. [/QUOTE] That’s not how I read it. It didn’t seem like a hijack, but a line of reasoning within the general trend of the thread. [QUOTE=monstro] Being in the Pit does not mean you can be inconsistent and get away with it. You told us foolish Westerners all what poverty is and is not, and then you backtracked and said that’s not what you were doing at all. [/QUOTE] Where’s the inconsistency? I didn’t say that’s not what I was doing, just that the statements in my OP in no way constituted an inclusive “definition” of poverty, as you would have it serve. Poverty can be worse than that, or better than that, but it certainly, in my opinion, doesn’t include the “BooHoo!” lines in the OP. Now where did I say “foolish Westerners”? I forget. [QUOTE=monstro] Are you too full of emotions to discuss whether or not you might be seeing this topic a bid narrow-mindedly? Or do you just want to rant unimpeded? [/QUOTE] You’d let me do that? That’s be peachy. [QUOTE=monstro] I don’t understand why you can’t just post your opinion in GD. If you disagree what was said, why not construct an argument and defend it? It doesn’t have to be backed up by cites. Just post a rebuttal to what you believe was wrong. It’s not that hard. [/QUOTE] Because dragging real poverty in that walking-to-school-uphill mileage comparison would really have been a hijack. I didn’t disagree with anything factual said there. Plus I wanted to get a little insulting. Possibly with “Fuck”. [QUOTE=monstro] I don’t find anything objectional in that thread, and that includes the posts by **Sam Stone** , who I usually do not agree with. I wish you’d be brave enough to post something specific rather than hiding behind that “general impressions” bit. Because it seems to me you’re picking on that thread rather unfairly. [/QUOTE] It’s a thread, for fuck’s sake. How can I “pick on it”? I didn’t call out the OP, I didn’t single any poster out by name. It’s the whole thread in its entirety that annoyed me. I doubt anyone there is losing any sleep about my opinion of their 1337 poverty-level-setting skillz. That thread was just a final nudge. [QUOTE=monstro] If people are seriously saying they are poor because they can’t drive they’re SUVs anymore, then I agree that that’s ridiculous. If people are saying that they are feeling a major squeeze because of high gas prices, then I don’t think that’s all that bad. People should feel free to complain without worrying about who has it worse. [/QUOTE] Which is why I don’t piss all over threads dedicated to bitching about high gas prices. I think I’ve given one factual answer in one, about local prices. That’s it, even though I chuckle everytime I read one. [QUOTE=monstro] I’ll tell you: I factored out my budget and realized that I really can’t afford to fly up to Maryland to visit my sister this summer, as I had planned. This doesn’t make me poor in an absolute sense, but I’m not going to avoid saying “I’m too poor to visit my sister” just because someone in Calcutta is dying of malnutrition in a trash-strewn gutter. Yeah, I know you never said I should censor myself like this. But that was the _general impression_ I got from your OP. [/QUOTE] You can call it what you like. It’s a figure of speech. But if you used “Oh, I was once so poor I couldn’t fly to Maryland” as an example in a thread about poverty , I’d call you on it then, too. [QUOTE=monstro] (But I do agree with you overall: People whine too much about what they don’t have. We often forget how fortunate we are, and I do think Americans do this way more than we should. I just disagree that the Dopers in that thread deserve your lecturing. I’m not trying to give you a hard time; I’m simply defending a thread that I felt had some value.) [/QUOTE] That thread has some value, I’m not questioning it. That’s one reason I didn’t try to hijack it. Some good citing going on there. Maybe this should just have gone into one of the “minor rants” threads, but the “Post New Thread” button was easier. Plus I haven’t posted a Pit OP in a while, and I was feeling ornery this morning. You’re basically saying you don’t think this was Pitworthy. I can respect that, but I disagree. If a Pit Mod feels different, they could always close the thread, now couldn’t they? Until then, here it is. ---
**Author:** ![Odesio](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/odesio/32/20003_2.png) [@Odesio](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Odesio)\ **Post date:** [July 11, 2006, 4:34pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/oh-you-poor-americans/363995/55 "2006-07-11T16:34:30Z")
[QUOTE=Pjen] 1/ The poorest folk in the USA are the homeless and roofless. Their conditions are not disimilar to the poverty experienced by people in the third world, but with the added disadvantage of limited family and community ties. Average age of death in the mid forties- hardly better than Africa. [/quote] While the homeless might be the poorest I don’t know if it’s fair to lump them with the rest of the poor. Most people who are habitually homeless are also addicted to drugs or alcohol and are likely suffering from mental illness which probably contributes to their homelessness and their low life expectency. > [@](#): > > 2/ The Poor but housed: I still stand by my statement that “for the most part” the poverty stricken in the United States fare better then the poverty stricken in many other nations. The first time I went to the Mississippi Delta region I saw grinding poverty I had always associated with 3rd world countries. Are Indian Reservations even counted among our statistics? They’ve got some degree of soverignty, right? Marc ---
**Author:** ![MrDibble](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/mrdibble/32/114_2.png) [@MrDibble](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/MrDibble)\ **Post date:** [July 11, 2006, 4:47pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/oh-you-poor-americans/363995/56 "2006-07-11T16:47:07Z")
Why can I see this becoming a meme? “Well, things are pretty bad in the 3rd World - you know, Bangladesh, Darfur…Mississippi!” I keed, I keed! \I can remember when it used to be Liverpool.\ ---
**Author:** ![uglybeech](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/u/82dd89/32.png) [@uglybeech](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/uglybeech)\ **Post date:** [July 11, 2006, 5:41pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/oh-you-poor-americans/363995/57 "2006-07-11T17:41:52Z")
[QUOTE=MrDibble] False dichotomy. I do my share and more of working for local equitable access to facilities. Doesn’t mean I can’t point out that some Americans are false martyrs. [/QUOTE] Bullshit. By painting abject concentration-camp like deprivation as the only thing that qualifies as “poverty” (and everything else as whiny luxury) you’re just normalizing your own country’s total failure to provide the basic infrastructure to its poor that the “whiny” Western countries looked to decades ago. The American poor still have serious problems. Acting like because they have running water and sewage they should STFU because the South Africans have not gotten their shit together enough to provide the most basic infrastructure to its poor? If everyone thought like you the whole planet would be a shantytown. I recognize that there are historical complexities to why South Africa’s in the situation it is. But this sort of monumental social failure should be a cause for national shame, not arrogance. ---
**Author:** ![you\_with\_the\_face](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/y/ecccb3/32.png) [@you\_with\_the\_face](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/you_with_the_face)\ **Post date:** [July 11, 2006, 6:14pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/oh-you-poor-americans/363995/58 "2006-07-11T18:14:17Z")
This thread would have a bit more substance to it if the OP’s ire was directed to a specific person or group of people. Instead, he’s railing against a “general impression” that really is a product of his slightly knee-jerkified imagination. No one in the aforementioned thread was playing martyr as far I can tell. The only purpose of this thread is to pit, in general, anyone who lacks a sense of perspective and is too self-centered to recognize it. Well done. Except there remains a question that remains unanswered: _Who_ has shown this lack of perspective? On this board or else where? I’m sure they exist, just like I’m sure people who kill cats for sport exist. But I don’t start pit threads about unrepentant cat murderers unless I’ve encountered an unrepentant cat murderer. I don’t just break out in a rant about some nebulous group of nameless, faceless people, just because the idea of them offends me. That’s just foolishness. But hey, maybe I should start such a thread. I have some stuff to get off my chest about those scumbags. They don’t deserve to live and stuff. ---
**Author:** ![MrDibble](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/mrdibble/32/114_2.png) [@MrDibble](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/MrDibble)\ **Post date:** [July 11, 2006, 6:39pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/oh-you-poor-americans/363995/59 "2006-07-11T18:39:33Z")
My bolding [QUOTE=uglybeech] Bullshit. By painting abject concentration-camp like deprivation as **the only thing** that qualifies as “poverty” (and everything else as whiny luxury) you’re just normalizing your own country’s total failure to provide the basic infrastructure to its poor that the “whiny” Western countries looked to decades ago. . [/QUOTE] Of course, you can show where I said it was “the only thing” that qualifies, right? No? Thought so. [QUOTE=uglybeech] The American poor still have serious problems. Acting like because they have running water and sewage \*\*they should STFU \*\*because the South Africans have not gotten their shit together enough to provide the most basic infrastructure to its poor? If everyone thought like you the whole planet would be a shantytown. . [/QUOTE] Of course, you can show where I told the _real_ American poor “they should STFU”, right? No? Thought so. [QUOTE=uglybeech] I recognize that there are historical complexities to why South Africa’s in the situation it is. But this sort of monumental social failure should be a cause for national shame, not arrogance. [/QUOTE] Of course, you can show where i held my country up as some sort of great example, right? No? Thought so. Of course, it also never said anywhere in my OP that I was talking about South Africa. I could just as well have been speaking about Zimbabwe or India _(or Mississippi)_. You really think I’m so invested in my country that I can’t see its faults? That’s an American failing, idiot, not mine. I am just amused that you think I can’t point out your faults because my country has its own. That’s monumentally stupid. ---
**Author:** ![Lionne](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/l/8e8cbc/32.png) [@Lionne](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Lionne)\ **Post date:** [July 11, 2006, 6:44pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/oh-you-poor-americans/363995/60 "2006-07-11T18:44:32Z")
[QUOTE=Left Hand of Dorkness] Crap. That previous **burundi** post was me. Sorry! Daniel [/QUOTE] Thanks for clearing that up; I was wondering why you’d changed your ever-so-appealing username. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/oh-you-poor-americans/363995.md?page=2) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/oh-you-poor-americans/363995.md?page=4)