# Ohio 2004 election records illegally destroyed/missing **URL:** \ **Category:** The BBQ Pit\ **Created:** [July 31, 2007, 7:31pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/ohio-2004-election-records-illegally-destroyed-missing/413860 "2007-07-31T19:31:17Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 1
**Author:** ![BrainGlutton](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/82dd89/32.png) [@BrainGlutton](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/BrainGlutton)\ **Post date:** [July 31, 2007, 7:31pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/ohio-2004-election-records-illegally-destroyed-missing/413860/1 "2007-07-31T19:31:17Z")
Story [here.](http://www.alternet.org/story/58328) The 2004 election results, having been accepted, cannot be overturned, of course. Is this pure carelessness, or is somebody trying to frustrate future historians? ---
**Author:** ![BrainGlutton](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/82dd89/32.png) [@BrainGlutton](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/BrainGlutton)\ **Post date:** [July 31, 2007, 8:24pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/ohio-2004-election-records-illegally-destroyed-missing/413860/2 "2007-07-31T20:24:18Z")
[Some background on the story.](http://www.commondreams.org/views06/0904-27.htm) ---
**Author:** ![Evil\_Captor](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/f17d59/32.png) [@Evil\_Captor](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Evil_Captor)\ **Post date:** [August 1, 2007, 2:04am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/ohio-2004-election-records-illegally-destroyed-missing/413860/3 "2007-08-01T02:04:36Z")
It’s the usual Republican coverup of a criminal conspiracy. I’m sure they had a grand shredding party before the Dems took over after the 2006 election. It would be nice to see some scumbags go to jail over this, but apparently IINIIYAR. (It Is Not Illegal If You Are Republican). ---
**Author:** ![Evil\_Captor](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/f17d59/32.png) [@Evil\_Captor](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Evil_Captor)\ **Post date:** [August 1, 2007, 2:08am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/ohio-2004-election-records-illegally-destroyed-missing/413860/4 "2007-08-01T02:08:17Z")
I’d REALLY like to hear some of the moderates and conservatives who dismissed Dem complaints about the way the 2004 election was conducted in Ohio try to explain this … ---
**Author:** ![BrainGlutton](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/82dd89/32.png) [@BrainGlutton](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/BrainGlutton)\ **Post date:** [August 1, 2007, 2:49am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/ohio-2004-election-records-illegally-destroyed-missing/413860/5 "2007-08-01T02:49:49Z")
[QUOTE=Evil Captor] I’d REALLY like to hear some of the moderates and conservatives who dismissed Dem complaints about the way the 2004 election was conducted in Ohio try to explain this … [/QUOTE] The “LA! LA! LA!” form of denial has worked for them up to now – why change, just because some essential records were accidentally destroyed in contravention of express federal court orders and Ohio law in 56 of Ohio’s 88 counties? Nobody’s perfect, you know. Mistakes were made. ---
**Author:** ![Frank](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/f/3d9bf3/32.png) [@Frank](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Frank)\ **Post date:** [August 1, 2007, 2:52am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/ohio-2004-election-records-illegally-destroyed-missing/413860/6 "2007-08-01T02:52:05Z")
[QUOTE=BrainGlutton] The “LA! LA! LA!” form of denial has worked for them up to now – why change, just because some essential records were accidentally destroyed in contravention of express federal court orders and Ohio law in 56 of Ohio’s 88 counties? [/QUOTE] You did notice that the court order was not issued until some eight days after the records could be legally destroyed? ---
**Author:** ![BrainGlutton](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/82dd89/32.png) [@BrainGlutton](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/BrainGlutton)\ **Post date:** [August 1, 2007, 3:11am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/ohio-2004-election-records-illegally-destroyed-missing/413860/7 "2007-08-01T03:11:41Z")
[QUOTE=Frank] You did notice that the court order was not issued until some eight days after the records could be legally destroyed? [/QUOTE] Irrelevant unless the records were destroyed during that eight-day period. And it would be **very** interesting if they were. ---
**Author:** ![Squink](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/b5e925/32.png) [@Squink](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Squink)\ **Post date:** [August 1, 2007, 3:11am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/ohio-2004-election-records-illegally-destroyed-missing/413860/8 "2007-08-01T03:11:52Z")
[QUOTE=Frank] You did notice that the court order was not issued until some eight days after the records could be legally destroyed? [/QUOTE] Was there an eager crowd waiting outside the ballot sites, antsy to get in and burn? I find such efficiency on the part of election officials _highly_ suspicious. ---
**Author:** ![Tuckerfan](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/eada6e/32.png) [@Tuckerfan](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Tuckerfan)\ **Post date:** [August 1, 2007, 3:32am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/ohio-2004-election-records-illegally-destroyed-missing/413860/9 "2007-08-01T03:32:28Z")
Meh. This changes _nothing._ If it had been discovered in 2004 and prevented Shrub from taking office, it would be something, but even if the records _do_ turn up, and they prove that Kerry should have won, it can’t undo the damage that Shrub has done, nor would it get him out of office sooner, since I’m sure the trail of guilty folks would stop long _before_ it got back to him. Also, I think he could legitimately argue that he’s too stupid to concieve of such a plan. ---
**Author:** ![Frank](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/f/3d9bf3/32.png) [@Frank](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Frank)\ **Post date:** [August 1, 2007, 3:34am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/ohio-2004-election-records-illegally-destroyed-missing/413860/10 "2007-08-01T03:34:42Z")
[QUOTE=BrainGlutton] Irrelevant unless the records were destroyed during that eight-day period. And it would be **very** interesting if they were. [/QUOTE] Ohio appears to have a governor, secretary of state and attorney general who are all Democrats. If criminal charges are appropriate against those who may or may not have illegally destroyed the records, I’ll rely on them to act appropriately. If conspiracy theories are appropriate, I’ll rely on you. ---
**Author:** ![Hung\_Mung](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/h/a88e4f/32.png) [@Hung\_Mung](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Hung_Mung)\ **Post date:** [August 1, 2007, 3:53am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/ohio-2004-election-records-illegally-destroyed-missing/413860/11 "2007-08-01T03:53:42Z")
[QUOTE=Tuckerfan] Meh. This changes _nothing._ If it had been discovered in 2004 and prevented Shrub from taking office, it would be something, but even if the records _do_ turn up, and they prove that Kerry should have won, it can’t undo the damage that Shrub has done, nor would it get him out of office sooner, since I’m sure the trail of guilty folks would stop long _before_ it got back to him. Also, I think he could legitimately argue that he’s too stupid to concieve of such a plan. [/QUOTE] Yeah, on preview, you said it better. I only disagree with you in that I think the trail of guilty folks stops somewhere in the neighborhood of, almost certainly not at the feet of, Karl Rove. He’s the Boy Wonder, the master manipulator. ---
**Author:** ![samclem](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/a9a28c/32.png) [@samclem](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/samclem)\ **Post date:** [August 1, 2007, 4:12am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/ohio-2004-election-records-illegally-destroyed-missing/413860/12 "2007-08-01T04:12:17Z")
[QUOTE=Frank] Ohio appears to have a governor, secretary of state and attorney general who are all Democrats. If criminal charges are appropriate against those who may or may not have illegally destroyed the records, I’ll rely on them to act appropriately. [/QUOTE] Heh! If you’re rely on any politician in Ohio, whether Dem or Pub, to get anything positive accomplished, you’re betting on the wrong horse, my friend. Why, you might as well make plans to move to Canada…[sub]what. really?[/sub]. Never mind. ---
**Author:** ![Evil\_Captor](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/f17d59/32.png) [@Evil\_Captor](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Evil_Captor)\ **Post date:** [August 1, 2007, 4:28am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/ohio-2004-election-records-illegally-destroyed-missing/413860/13 "2007-08-01T04:28:20Z")
[QUOTE=Tuckerfan] Meh. This changes _nothing._ If it had been discovered in 2004 and prevented Shrub from taking office, it would be something, but even if the records _do_ turn up, and they prove that Kerry should have won, it can’t undo the damage that Shrub has done, nor would it get him out of office sooner, since I’m sure the trail of guilty folks would stop long _before_ it got back to him. Also, I think he could legitimately argue that he’s too stupid to concieve of such a plan. [/QUOTE] It’s another piece in the puzzle demonstrating that the whole Republican election machine is crooked and corrupt, something certain foks even on this board don’t seem to want to learn. ---
**Author:** ![Tuckerfan](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/eada6e/32.png) [@Tuckerfan](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Tuckerfan)\ **Post date:** [August 1, 2007, 5:19am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/ohio-2004-election-records-illegally-destroyed-missing/413860/14 "2007-08-01T05:19:04Z")
[QUOTE=Evil Captor] It’s another piece in the puzzle demonstrating that the whole Republican election machine is crooked and corrupt, something certain foks even on this board don’t seem to want to learn. [/QUOTE] Hell, do you think that certain folks here wouldn’t find anything wrong with Shrub going on national TV, confessing to rigging elections and then declaring himself President for Life? Cause, I’m willing to bet that at least a couple of them would be waving the flag and cheering on our Chimp-in-Chief. Until someone comes up with a smoking gun, all the claims about election rigging are no different than the folks swearing that Lee Harvey Oswald _didn’t_ pull the trigger. ---
**Author:** ![kaylasdad99](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/kaylasdad99/32/3398_2.png) [@kaylasdad99](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/kaylasdad99)\ **Post date:** [August 1, 2007, 5:50am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/ohio-2004-election-records-illegally-destroyed-missing/413860/15 "2007-08-01T05:50:53Z")
_Lee Harvey Oswald was responsible for rigging the 2004 presidential race in Ohio?_ :eek: ---
**Author:** ![marshmallow](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/df705f/32.png) [@marshmallow](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/marshmallow)\ **Post date:** [August 1, 2007, 8:10am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/ohio-2004-election-records-illegally-destroyed-missing/413860/16 "2007-08-01T08:10:09Z")
It was actually a pretty bad conspiracy, which is why it’s believable – there’s too much evidence lying around already. Usually, things like this take years to become declassified. See: Gonzogate, Palast. The point I always bring up is that it’s the fault of the American people, really. The way the GOP massaged the system is smart, but ultimately it only works if elections are extremely close. They have to work at the margins. The fact that Americans have buyer’s remorse over Bush _now_ is funny, because he was the same guy back in 2004, with basically the same scandals going on then as now, except now we just have more examples and evidence. ---
**Author:** ![BrainGlutton](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/82dd89/32.png) [@BrainGlutton](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/BrainGlutton)\ **Post date:** [August 1, 2007, 1:19pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/ohio-2004-election-records-illegally-destroyed-missing/413860/17 "2007-08-01T13:19:01Z")
[QUOTE=marshmallow] The point I always bring up is that it’s the fault of the American people, really. [/QUOTE] Yeh, I know . . . and I beat my wife because she’s asking for it . . . ---
**Author:** ![Sublight](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/439d5e/32.png) [@Sublight](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Sublight)\ **Post date:** [August 1, 2007, 1:30pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/ohio-2004-election-records-illegally-destroyed-missing/413860/18 "2007-08-01T13:30:31Z")
[QUOTE=BrainGlutton] Yeh, I know . . . and I beat my wife because she’s asking for it . . . [/QUOTE] What do you say to country that’s had two terms of W? Nothing, you already told it twice. ---
**Author:** ![Bill\_Door](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/50afbb/32.png) [@Bill\_Door](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Bill_Door)\ **Post date:** [August 1, 2007, 3:14pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/ohio-2004-election-records-illegally-destroyed-missing/413860/19 "2007-08-01T15:14:34Z")
[QUOTE=marshmallow] (snip) The fact that Americans have buyer’s remorse over Bush _now_ is funny, because he was the same guy back in 2004, with basically the same scandals going on then as now, except now we just have more examples and evidence. [/QUOTE] I know, my neighbor was a big Bush supporter in 2004. Every time I see him now I give him a big smile and say “Is he every bit the President you thought he would be? Because he’s exactly what I expected.” It’s driving him crazy. ---
**Author:** ![Shodan](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/9f8e36/32.png) [@Shodan](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Shodan)\ **Post date:** [August 1, 2007, 5:47pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/ohio-2004-election-records-illegally-destroyed-missing/413860/20 "2007-08-01T17:47:37Z")
**BG** - The Whiningly Obsessive Sore Loser Society of America called. They’re revoking your membership for embarassing them. Regards, Shodan [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/ohio-2004-election-records-illegally-destroyed-missing/413860.md?page=2)