# Ohio 2004 election records illegally destroyed/missing **URL:** \ **Category:** The BBQ Pit\ **Created:** [July 31, 2007, 7:31pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/ohio-2004-election-records-illegally-destroyed-missing/413860 "2007-07-31T19:31:17Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 18\ **Page:** 6
**Author:** ![Sarahfeena](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/sarahfeena/32/519_2.png) [@Sarahfeena](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Sarahfeena)\ **Post date:** [August 9, 2007, 5:25pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/ohio-2004-election-records-illegally-destroyed-missing/413860/101 "2007-08-09T17:25:42Z")
[QUOTE=elucidator] Given the Pubbies unblemished record of civic virtue and and electoral purity? [/QUOTE] Given the evidence or lack thereof in this specific situation. ---
**Author:** ![Squink](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/b5e925/32.png) [@Squink](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Squink)\ **Post date:** [August 9, 2007, 5:31pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/ohio-2004-election-records-illegally-destroyed-missing/413860/102 "2007-08-09T17:31:22Z")
[The Dog Ate Our Ballots](http://www.freetimes.com/stories/15/14/the-dog-ate-our-ballots) > [@](#): > > “In Allen County, [BoE director] Mr. [Keith] Cunningham informed [Brunner] that the basement where the ballots were had been leaking for six years,” says Fitrakis. “He said the 2004 ballots had to be moved to the floor because they needed stuff on a higher shelf. He provided papers to the Free Press that said they had to throw them out because they were moldy. If you put ballots in a vault that’s been leaking for six years by Mr. Cunningham’s own admission and you put them on the floor, that’s an intentional destruction of public records from my perspective.” > > One explanation verged on the comical. In rural Holmes County, the board claimed a shelving unit containing ballots and other material from the 2004 election collapsed onto a table containing a working coffeemaker, shattering its filled carafe and soaking the material with coffee. “Many of the stored items had to be destroyed due to broken glass and hot coffee,” their letter states. ---
**Author:** ![elucidator](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/8edcca/32.png) [@elucidator](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/elucidator)\ **Post date:** [August 9, 2007, 5:33pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/ohio-2004-election-records-illegally-destroyed-missing/413860/103 "2007-08-09T17:33:41Z")
And the question I posed earlier remains unanswered: why destroy the records? Do they present some health hazard? Is there any compelling reason why they _must_ be destroyed, at the earliest legal opportunity? To what end? Who benefits? ---
**Author:** ![elucidator](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/8edcca/32.png) [@elucidator](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/elucidator)\ **Post date:** [August 9, 2007, 5:36pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/ohio-2004-election-records-illegally-destroyed-missing/413860/104 "2007-08-09T17:36:43Z")
Well, that certainly settles that! I had no idea they were all, like, moldy. And stuff. ---
**Author:** ![Shodan](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/9f8e36/32.png) [@Shodan](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Shodan)\ **Post date:** [August 9, 2007, 6:31pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/ohio-2004-election-records-illegally-destroyed-missing/413860/105 "2007-08-09T18:31:10Z")
[QUOTE=kaylasdad99] > [@Shodan](#): > > As far as has been determined, this is exactly what has happened. **The ballots were destroyed, twenty two months after the election** , and all possible legal contestations should have run their course. But the court order contravening Ohio state law was not issued until eight days after that. Absent documentation of the date[s] of the destruction, this assertion (the bolded portion) still contains a non-zero component of conjecture. To the extent to which you insist that the conjectural component _is_ zero (or of a value so small as to be unworthy of concern), you will find your disagreement with several here to be irreconcilable. [/QUOTE] The component is not zero; it is undetermined. That is why I keep requesting evidence, so as to make a reasonable estimate of the amount. And I keep pointing out that the conjecture that this was done to cover-up a massive conspiracy that actually threw the election to Bush approaches unity as a limit. I repeat - on what evidence do you base _your_ conjecture that there was a criminal conspiracy and voter fraud in Ohio? And, if you are just trying to be sure there wasn’t, and have no partisan basis for your investigation, why are the Usual Suspects concerned solely and only in a state that Bush won? I hear nothing about election challenges in any blue state. If you are so concerned with a fair vote, why don’t you sue somebody in Illinois? Why is voter fraud so important in Ohio, but not in [Washington and Mississippi?](http://polipundit.com/index.php?p=18362) Regards, Shodan ---
**Author:** ![elucidator](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/8edcca/32.png) [@elucidator](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/elucidator)\ **Post date:** [August 9, 2007, 6:56pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/ohio-2004-election-records-illegally-destroyed-missing/413860/106 "2007-08-09T18:56:34Z")
Adn I ask again, why was it needful that the records be destroyed? You keep insisting that there’s nothing wrong with it, ok, what’s\* right \* with it? Even if a suspicion is unfounded, wouldn’t you want clear sunlight to prevail? Since you are entirely convinced that there is no risk involved, why would you want the records destroyed? Except for all that mold, and stuff… ---
**Author:** ![Sarahfeena](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/sarahfeena/32/519_2.png) [@Sarahfeena](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Sarahfeena)\ **Post date:** [August 9, 2007, 7:14pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/ohio-2004-election-records-illegally-destroyed-missing/413860/107 "2007-08-09T19:14:46Z")
[QUOTE=elucidator] Adn I ask again, why was it needful that the records be destroyed? You keep insisting that there’s nothing wrong with it, ok, what’s\* right \* with it? Even if a suspicion is unfounded, wouldn’t you want clear sunlight to prevail? Since you are entirely convinced that there is no risk involved, why would you want the records destroyed? Except for all that mold, and stuff… [/QUOTE] Speaking on a broader level than just Ohio, Is it typical that voting records are destroyed after a certain period of time, or is it typical that they are retained indefinitely? And if the former, do you believe records _should_ be retained indefinitely? If not, what do you think is a reasonable period of time? ---
**Author:** ![Sarahfeena](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/sarahfeena/32/519_2.png) [@Sarahfeena](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Sarahfeena)\ **Post date:** [August 9, 2007, 7:23pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/ohio-2004-election-records-illegally-destroyed-missing/413860/108 "2007-08-09T19:23:10Z")
Oh, and I have one more question. Let’s say that a business has a legal obligation to hold onto tax records for 10 years (I’m making this up). The business has a policy that every year on April 16, they purge the record that just had its 10th birthday. Would you assume that the business was trying to hide something? Or do you think that they may have some other explanation for why they might have such a policy? ---
**Author:** ![kaylasdad99](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/kaylasdad99/32/3398_2.png) [@kaylasdad99](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/kaylasdad99)\ **Post date:** [August 9, 2007, 7:46pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/ohio-2004-election-records-illegally-destroyed-missing/413860/109 "2007-08-09T19:46:08Z")
[QUOTE=Shodan] I repeat - on what evidence do you base _your_ conjecture that there was a criminal conspiracy and voter fraud in Ohio? [/QUOTE] You disappoint me, **Shodan** ; you’re usually more careful than this. I offered no conjecture as to the presence or absence of a criminal conspiracy and voter fraud in Ohio, or anywhere else. That I have not chosen to join you in your derision of such conjectures as have been offered by others does not give you the right to assume that I have supported them. I will say, that (IMHO\*) being Republicans makes such people worthy of extra scrutiny by default, and I am rarely sorry to have the opportunity to watch them squirm under it. 😛 \*It is also the case that MHO is so often coincident with objective fact, that I hardly ever feel the need to mention that an assertion is MHO. 😛 😛 ---
**Author:** ![Shodan](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/9f8e36/32.png) [@Shodan](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Shodan)\ **Post date:** [August 9, 2007, 8:41pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/ohio-2004-election-records-illegally-destroyed-missing/413860/110 "2007-08-09T20:41:45Z")
[QUOTE=kaylasdad99] I offered no conjecture as to the presence or absence of a criminal conspiracy and voter fraud in Ohio, or anywhere else. That I have not chosen to join you in your derision of such conjectures as have been offered by others does not give you the right to assume that I have supported them. I will say, that (IMHO\*) being Republicans makes such people worthy of extra scrutiny by default, and I am rarely sorry to have the opportunity to watch them squirm under it. 😛 [/QUOTE] IOW, as far as the voting in Ohio goes, you are a troll. You’re not even pretending that you think there might be some criminal activity. You just want to cause trouble for the other party. I rather suspect that your motives are the same as those filing the lawsuit. Mere partisanship, as I have mentioned elsewhere, and a concern for fairness plays no part. No surprise there. Regards, Shodan ---
**Author:** ![elucidator](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/8edcca/32.png) [@elucidator](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/elucidator)\ **Post date:** [August 9, 2007, 9:46pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/ohio-2004-election-records-illegally-destroyed-missing/413860/111 "2007-08-09T21:46:36Z")
[QUOTE=Shodan] ..I rather suspect that your motives are the same as those filing the lawsuit. Mere partisanship, as I have mentioned elsewhere, and a concern for fairness plays no part… [/QUOTE] Who knows what evil lurks in the hearts of men? The **Shodan** does! ---
**Author:** ![elucidator](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/8edcca/32.png) [@elucidator](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/elucidator)\ **Post date:** [August 10, 2007, 5:06am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/ohio-2004-election-records-illegally-destroyed-missing/413860/112 "2007-08-10T05:06:04Z")
[QUOTE=Sarahfeena] …If not, what do you think is a reasonable period of time? [/QUOTE] The amount of time, reasonable or no, isn’t the point. If there is controversy over the issue, the records should be retained until such time as they are thoroughly examined. Any such suspicions ought to be intolerable, in a democracy there is nothing so important as a fair election. Absent a compelling reason, it raises more doubts than it clarifies. Who benefits? > [@](#): > > …Oh, and I have one more question. Let’s say that a business has a legal obligation to hold onto tax records for 10 years (I’m making this up). The business has a policy that every year on April 16, they purge the record that just had its 10th birthday. Would you assume that the business was trying to hide something? Or do you think that they may have some other explanation for why they might have such a policy?.. I have no idea why you think this is relevent. Its not about legality, its about our ability to have faith and trust in our elections. ---
**Author:** ![Evil\_Captor](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/f17d59/32.png) [@Evil\_Captor](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Evil_Captor)\ **Post date:** [August 10, 2007, 5:59pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/ohio-2004-election-records-illegally-destroyed-missing/413860/113 "2007-08-10T17:59:22Z")
[QUOTE=elucidator] I have no idea why you think this is relevent. Its not about legality, its about our ability to have faith and trust in our elections. [/QUOTE] If you can’t trust our elected officials who can you trust? Especially if they’s Republicans! ---
**Author:** ![elucidator](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/8edcca/32.png) [@elucidator](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/elucidator)\ **Post date:** [August 10, 2007, 6:07pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/ohio-2004-election-records-illegally-destroyed-missing/413860/114 "2007-08-10T18:07:49Z")
They’s people, and they’s not to be trusted, Pubbie, Dem, Indy or Libby. The temptations of power are too great. ---
**Author:** ![kaylasdad99](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/kaylasdad99/32/3398_2.png) [@kaylasdad99](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/kaylasdad99)\ **Post date:** [August 10, 2007, 8:15pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/ohio-2004-election-records-illegally-destroyed-missing/413860/115 "2007-08-10T20:15:47Z")
[QUOTE=Shodan] IOW, as far as the voting in Ohio goes, you are a troll. You’re not even pretending that you think there might be some criminal activity. You just want to cause trouble for the other party. I rather suspect that your motives are the same as those filing the lawsuit. Mere partisanship, as I have mentioned elsewhere, and a concern for fairness plays no part. No surprise there. Regards, Shodan [/QUOTE] Bite me. 🙂 Up to now, I have four posts in this thread. [Here’s one that’s a joke.](http://boards.straightdope.com/sdmb/showpost.php?p=8837721&postcount=15) [This one is an observation that a specific piece of documentation appears to be unavailable, and questions whether such unavailability is unusual.](http://boards.straightdope.com/sdmb/showpost.php?p=8855504&postcount=55) [Here, I point out that such unavailability renders a specific portion of one of your assertions less than 100% certain, and that the significance of such such uncertainty will remain a point of disagreement between you and others [until the uncertainty itself is eliminated].](http://boards.straightdope.com/sdmb/showpost.php?p=8864706&postcount=97) [Here, I decline to accept the mantle of conjecture-offerer that you tried to place upon me. I also proclaim (by implication) my dislike of Republicans, and my general equanimity with the prospect of their discomfiture.](http://boards.straightdope.com/sdmb/showpost.php?p=8866293&postcount=109) It is difficult to see how the preceding can be fairly extrapolated to a desire on my part to _cause_ anything at all, any more than your posts amount to effective action to _prevent_ trouble for the [Republican] party. A willingness to watch it unfold, sure, and a desire to obtain information that will enable me to gauge the likelihood of such trouble unfolding. As for my motivation, it is the same as my motivation for everything I do here: my own entertainment. ---
**Author:** ![Blalron](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/35a633/32.png) [@Blalron](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Blalron)\ **Post date:** [August 11, 2007, 4:13am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/ohio-2004-election-records-illegally-destroyed-missing/413860/116 "2007-08-11T04:13:51Z")
[QUOTE=Shodan] So the fact that there was a law stipulating a minimum period for which vote records should be retained makes you suspicious that a conspiracy has been at work? [/QUOTE] Frankly, I don’t even care anymore about whether a conspiracy happened. If it did, those who did it have effectively covered their tracks. I just want to prevent any possible vote stealing from happening again. A democracy can’t function effectively if the results are constantly being called into question. This isn’t just a matter of Democrats whining about losing either. Look at the recent election for Washington Governor… a Democrat won by the very narrowest of margins. The Federal Prosecutor in that particular district was asked by his superiors to drum up some prosecutions for “voter fraud”… he refused, believing there wasn’t any credible evidence… that prosecutor was subsequently fired. Sour grapes indeed. I’d love for there to be a bipartisan dialogue about how to better improve our electoral system. But it just seems like we’re talking AT each other instead of with each other. And it makes me sad. ---
**Author:** ![elucidator](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/8edcca/32.png) [@elucidator](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/elucidator)\ **Post date:** [August 11, 2007, 5:06am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/ohio-2004-election-records-illegally-destroyed-missing/413860/117 "2007-08-11T05:06:29Z")
Well, someday somebody will do an interesting study, about how all those people who lied to the exit pollers. I guess I can understand it, if I had voted for Bush I sure as hell wouldn’t admit it. Its kinda like one of those multiplex movie theaters, somebody asks you coming out, what you saw, you say that new movie about Jane Austen, not _Sorority Stewardess Sluts Do Dallas…_ ---
**Author:** ![dropzone](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/dropzone/32/7515_2.png) [@dropzone](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/dropzone)\ **Post date:** [August 11, 2007, 6:36am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/ohio-2004-election-records-illegally-destroyed-missing/413860/118 "2007-08-11T06:36:52Z")
You pinkos in Minnesota get to see those things in your local multiplexes. Here, all they’re showing is _Underdog._ BTW, my church just showed a movie, _Sweet Land_, in which the pastor was appalled, in 1920 or so Minnesota, that the heroine was a registered Socialist. This, in a state where the Democratic Party exists only as the Minnesota Democratic-Farmer-Labor Party. Maybe if the pastor had explained to her the shades of pink differences between the four cadres… [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/ohio-2004-election-records-illegally-destroyed-missing/413860.md?page=5)