# Ohio Holocaust Memorial **URL:** \ **Category:** Great Debates\ **Created:** [August 6, 2013, 5:58pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/ohio-holocaust-memorial/665507 "2013-08-06T17:58:39Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 4
**Author:** ![Happy\_Scrappy\_Hero\_Pup](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/h/ea5d25/32.png) [@Happy\_Scrappy\_Hero\_Pup](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Happy_Scrappy_Hero_Pup)\ **Post date:** [August 6, 2013, 10:10pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/ohio-holocaust-memorial/665507/61 "2013-08-06T22:10:36Z")
Der Trihs is right. The National Reich Church was undoubtedly Christian. Hans Kerrl specifically endorsed the Apostle’s Creed as necessary for Christianity, rather than the Fuhrer. Allan Bullock and Michael Phayer have both done significant research demonstrating the link between Naziism and the establishment of unified Christianity. Even the OSS was aware of a Nazi plot to subsume all other religions in the name of Christ. In fact, the Reich placed a special barracks at Dachau to allow clergy to watch the systematic extermination of all others except them. The Reich also ordained thousands of Catholic priests in Poland. Hitler himself said that Catholic teachings, taken to their ultimate conclusion, would mean “the systematic cultivation of human excellence.” …oh wait. The exact OPPOSITE of all those things are true. The OPPOSITE. Sorry to have wasted everybody’s time. ---
**Author:** ![Ibn\_Warraq](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/i/e19b73/32.png) [@Ibn\_Warraq](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Ibn_Warraq)\ **Post date:** [August 6, 2013, 10:11pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/ohio-holocaust-memorial/665507/62 "2013-08-06T22:11:54Z")
NM ---
**Author:** ![Malthus](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/85f322/32.png) [@Malthus](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Malthus)\ **Post date:** [August 6, 2013, 10:30pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/ohio-holocaust-memorial/665507/63 "2013-08-06T22:30:15Z")
> [@Czarcasm](#): > > I have presented facts and links to facts. What you give here is nothing more than speculation based on…what? What cites do you have that Jews that are atheists will overwhelmingly choose Judaism when asked by the military? Where do you get the idea that choosing to put down “atheist” on the form represents a direct rejection of their tribe in the mind of the person that does so? As long as we’re working on blind speculation, why couldn’t the person filling out the paperwork be thinking to herself, "It’s asking for my current religion, not my tribal identity. Since I no longer believe, I’ll go ahead and check the box marked “atheist”.? Because I’m a Jew and an atheist myself, and I know what I’d do? And I know lots of people just like me? ---
**Author:** ![Miller](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/miller/32/481_2.png) [@Miller](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Miller)\ **Post date:** [August 6, 2013, 10:33pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/ohio-holocaust-memorial/665507/64 "2013-08-06T22:33:42Z")
> [@Czarcasm](#): > > I have presented facts and links to facts. No, you haven’t. You’ve presented a list of possible tombstone decorations that includes multiple purely secular symbols, and some collar tabs. Neither of those are anything \*like \*evidence for your position. ---
**Author:** ![Malthus](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/85f322/32.png) [@Malthus](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Malthus)\ **Post date:** [August 6, 2013, 10:37pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/ohio-holocaust-memorial/665507/65 "2013-08-06T22:37:58Z")
> [@Czarcasm](#): > > The atheism symbol is for those that do not believe and do not wish to hide that fact. It is a symbol, but not a religious symbol. This little diversion is as silly as the argument in another thread about how wanting to have an atheist “Chaplain” is an admission that atheism is a religion. Similarly, the Star of David is a symbol, but not a religious symbol. The silliness is all on your side, citing this list of symbols as “evidence” that the symbols on the list are “religious symbols”. I’m merely pointing out that it isn’t evidence of anything. It isn’t a “diversion”, as I (like you!) think that arguing atheism is “a religion” is nonsense. However, you are committing a similar form of nonsense in this thread, using exactly the same types of arguments as those who would argue that having athiest chaplains means athiests think atheism is a religion! Just think about it for a second. If you had atheist chaplains, they would presumably have insignia, and that insignia presumably would have a symbol on it. The atheist symbol, no doubt. The irony of you bringing up that “athiest chaplain” thread to _support_ your argument that having a star of david of a chaplain’s insignia is “proof” that the star is a “religious symbol”, is overwhelming. By your own logic, that would make the atheist symbol a “religious symbol” and atheism a “religion”, which we both agree is silly. ---
**Author:** ![FinnAgain](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/finnagain/32/12500_2.png) [@FinnAgain](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/FinnAgain)\ **Post date:** [August 6, 2013, 10:47pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/ohio-holocaust-memorial/665507/66 "2013-08-06T22:47:27Z")
This is a freakin’ weird thread. If I’m reading it correctly, Czar is actually arguing that Jewish tradition and practice are irrelevant in the face of the US government making a list and calling the Magen David a religious symbol. Evidently the US government overrules Jews and Judaism when it comes to what we believe, practice, and what symbolism we use? Of course, the list doesn’t say that the Magen David is a religious symbol, after all, and it’s got atheists on it, which Czar has zero cogent responses to. Weird. ---
**Author:** ![Chronos](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/chronos/32/134_2.png) [@Chronos](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Chronos)\ **Post date:** [August 6, 2013, 11:10pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/ohio-holocaust-memorial/665507/67 "2013-08-06T23:10:58Z")
When we buried my father in a military cemetery a couple of years ago, they asked us which symbol we wanted on his gravestone, as well as for a short saying or quote (there was some character limit). We chose one of the variants of the cross and the words “Thank You Jesus”, because that’s what he undoubtedly would have wanted. But we could have instead chosen the Star of David, or a menorah, or anything else on that list, even though Dad never had any particular connection to Judaism. The symbols aren’t tied inextricably to the soldier’s faith; they’re just tied to what the next of kin chooses. Now, it happens that in our culture, a lot of people happen to like having religious symbols on grave monuments, and so the VA provides a lot of those among the options to choose from, but if you don’t want a religious symbol, they offer a few options of non-religious symbols, too. ---
**Author:** ![ITR\_champion](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/i/c67d28/32.png) [@ITR\_champion](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/ITR_champion)\ **Post date:** [August 6, 2013, 11:19pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/ohio-holocaust-memorial/665507/68 "2013-08-06T23:19:47Z")
> [@FinnAgain](#): > > This is a freakin’ weird thread. I agree, since I started with a question about whether the Holocaust Memorial is constitutional, and immediately exploded into a completely different debate. What I said at the start was that I don’t think religious symbols on government property are unconstitutional, but if they are then the Holocaust Memorial in Ohio is clearly unconstitutional, and so are many others. Of course, among those who have made it their purpose in life to harass state and local governments because on religious symbols, statues, and so forth, most would shy away from attacking a Holocaust Memorial. Hence the claim that the Star of David is both a cultural and a religious symbol. But obviously that excuse would not convince the judges who have outlawed other religious symbols on government property. Images that involve a cross or other Christian imagery have cultural significance for many ethnic groups, and doubtlessly imagery from other religions has cultural significance for many groups. ---
**Author:** ![Terr](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/839c29/32.png) [@Terr](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Terr)\ **Post date:** [August 6, 2013, 11:24pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/ohio-holocaust-memorial/665507/69 "2013-08-06T23:24:21Z")
> [@ITR\_champion](#): > > I agree, since I started with a question about whether the Holocaust Memorial is constitutional, and immediately exploded into a completely different debate. What I said at the start was that I don’t think religious symbols on government property are unconstitutional, but if they are then the Holocaust Memorial in Ohio is clearly unconstitutional, and so are many others. Except, as was pointed out, the Holocaust Memorial has nothing to do with religion. Or religious symbols. > [@](#): > > Hence the claim that the Star of David is both a cultural and a religious symbol. But obviously that excuse would not convince the judges who have outlawed other religious symbols on government property. It would convince any judge who did even a modicum of research into whether Magen David is a religious symbol. ---
**Author:** ![FinnAgain](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/finnagain/32/12500_2.png) [@FinnAgain](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/FinnAgain)\ **Post date:** [August 6, 2013, 11:36pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/ohio-holocaust-memorial/665507/70 "2013-08-06T23:36:34Z")
And simply for the record, I’ve been an atheist since I was 8 years old, and I self-identify as a Jew and had a pretty nifty golden Magen David necklace when I was a teen. Yes, there were options like Torah scroll necklaces, but _I didn’t want a religious symbol._ ---
**Author:** ![YogSothoth](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/y/8edcca/32.png) [@YogSothoth](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/YogSothoth)\ **Post date:** [August 6, 2013, 11:37pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/ohio-holocaust-memorial/665507/71 "2013-08-06T23:37:18Z")
Even if it is religious, in this case, as an atheist, let them have it. The Jewish people have suffered enough, no point quibbling over this little detail ---
**Author:** ![Guinastasia](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/guinastasia/32/5751_2.png) [@Guinastasia](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Guinastasia)\ **Post date:** [August 7, 2013, 12:13am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/ohio-holocaust-memorial/665507/72 "2013-08-07T00:13:48Z")
> [@Der\_Trihs](#): > > Of course they did; the Nazi slaughter of the Jews was just one more chapter in the long persecution of Jews by Christians. If that Christian hatred hadn’t been a part of the Nazi worldview, there’d probably have been no particular effort towards the killing of Jews. The eugenics aspects were just their particular handwave as to why the extermination of Jews was “necessary”; not really any different than the claim used as an excuse by others that Jews use the blood of children in their religious rituals. Oh yeah? Let’s see a cite for this claim. :dubious: AGAIN, the Nazis were after the Jews based on _race_. You didn’t have to be a practicing Jew, indeed, you didn’t have to actually be “Jewish” necessarily – if you had Jewish ancestry, that’s all that mattered. Hell, you could be the frigging Pope, but if you had a Jewish grandparent, that was enough, as far as the Nazis were concerned. Look up Edith Stein. ---
**Author:** ![Jackmannii](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/jackmannii/32/311_2.png) [@Jackmannii](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Jackmannii)\ **Post date:** [August 7, 2013, 12:39am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/ohio-holocaust-memorial/665507/73 "2013-08-07T00:39:39Z")
> [@Spoke](#): > > And paid for by tax dollars? And commemorating a European event? The Ohio Holocaust Memorial’s $1.8 million cost is [privately funded](http://bigstory.ap.org/article/ohio-holocaust-memorial-approved-statehouse). The state is paying only for site preparation. As for commemorating a “European event”, a lot of Americans were involved in “events” in Europe in WWII, including [this man](http://www.dispatch.com/content/stories/local/2013/08/06/vet-shares-photos-shot-at-nazi-camp.html). And the Holocaust is far from the only “European event” to be the subject of memorials in the United States. For example, there are multiple U.S. memorials recognizing the Armenian genocide, which I think is also a good thing. ---
**Author:** ![Czarcasm](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/czarcasm/32/4050_2.png) [@Czarcasm](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Czarcasm)\ **Post date:** [August 7, 2013, 2:17am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/ohio-holocaust-memorial/665507/74 "2013-08-07T02:17:12Z")
> [@Miller](#): > > No, you haven’t. You’ve presented a list of possible tombstone decorations that includes multiple purely secular symbols, and some collar tabs. Neither of those are anything \*like \*evidence for your position. And again I ask, what _would_ be considered evidence for my position that the Star of David is both a tribal symbol for some and a religious symbol for others(which seem to include the U.S. Government-the ones that supposedly shouldn’t allow religious symbols to be used this way.)? I’m tired of playing the “No-_that’s_ not it” game-Just tell me what would qualify. ---
**Author:** ![FinnAgain](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/finnagain/32/12500_2.png) [@FinnAgain](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/FinnAgain)\ **Post date:** [August 7, 2013, 3:08am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/ohio-holocaust-memorial/665507/75 "2013-08-07T03:08:14Z")
… Jewish scholars. I mean, seriously, did you really think that the U.S. government is not just an authority on Jewish culture and religion, but that it speaks for Jews on matters of culture and religion? I would wager that Telushkin would be a good jumping off point for you, if you can’t accept the unanimous position of pretty much every Jew who posted in this thread. You might also have noticed that the old saw, “two Jews, three opinions,” and ideally you comprehend what it means that we’re all in agreement. Or you can continue to be difficult about it. ---
**Author:** ![Spoke](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/a88e57/32.png) [@Spoke](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Spoke)\ **Post date:** [August 7, 2013, 3:20am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/ohio-holocaust-memorial/665507/76 "2013-08-07T03:20:55Z")
> [@Jackmannii](#): > > For example, there are multiple U.S. memorials recognizing the Armenian genocide, which I think is also a good thing. Yeah? Any on statehouse grounds? ---
**Author:** ![ITR\_champion](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/i/c67d28/32.png) [@ITR\_champion](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/ITR_champion)\ **Post date:** [August 7, 2013, 3:24am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/ohio-holocaust-memorial/665507/77 "2013-08-07T03:24:24Z")
> [@Terr](#): > > It would convince any judge who did even a modicum of research into whether Magen David is a religious symbol. If you read the FFRF complaint, you’ll see that they can point to several court rulings saying that the Star of David is a religious symbol. ---
**Author:** ![Terr](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/839c29/32.png) [@Terr](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Terr)\ **Post date:** [August 7, 2013, 3:48am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/ohio-holocaust-memorial/665507/78 "2013-08-07T03:48:45Z")
> [@ITR\_champion](#): > > If you read the FFRF complaint, you’ll see that they can point to several court rulings saying that the Star of David is a religious symbol. Again, just because some courts repeat the silliness doesn’t make it less silly. Yes, Magen David is a Jewish symbol. No, Magen David is not a “sacred (LOL) religious symbol”. That’s just stupid. One of the reasons that Magen David was chosen by the Zionist movement and is on the flag of Israel is that it is explicitly NOT a religious symbol. Zionists at the time were overwhelmingly secular. ---
**Author:** ![Czarcasm](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/czarcasm/32/4050_2.png) [@Czarcasm](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Czarcasm)\ **Post date:** [August 7, 2013, 3:57am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/ohio-holocaust-memorial/665507/79 "2013-08-07T03:57:55Z")
> [@Terr](#): > > Again, just because some courts repeat the silliness doesn’t make it less silly. > > Yes, Magen David is a Jewish symbol. No, Magen David is not a “sacred (LOL) religious symbol”. That’s just stupid. One of the reasons that Magen David was chosen by the Zionist movement and is on the flag of Israel is that it is explicitly NOT a religious symbol. Zionists at the time were overwhelmingly secular. For the purpose of this exercise, if the courts decide that it is a religious symbol, then it is legally a religious symbol when it comes to using it on public land _even if every freakin’ rabbi in the whole world thinks otherwise._ ---
**Author:** ![Captain\_Amazing](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/6de8d8/32.png) [@Captain\_Amazing](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Captain_Amazing)\ **Post date:** [August 7, 2013, 3:58am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/ohio-holocaust-memorial/665507/80 "2013-08-07T03:58:45Z")
> [@Spoke](#): > > Yeah? Any on statehouse grounds? There’s a plaque recognizing the Armenian Genocide at the Colorado Capitol building. Has an Armenian cross on it too. [http://www.colorado.gov/cs/Satellite?c=Media\_C&childpagename=ColoradoCapitolArt%2FMedia\_C%2FCBONDisplayImage&cid=1251611214144&pagename=CBONWrapper](http://www.colorado.gov/cs/Satellite?c=Media_C&childpagename=ColoradoCapitolArt%2FMedia_C%2FCBONDisplayImage&cid=1251611214144&pagename=CBONWrapper) [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/ohio-holocaust-memorial/665507.md?page=3) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/ohio-holocaust-memorial/665507.md?page=5)