# Ohio Holocaust Memorial **URL:** \ **Category:** Great Debates\ **Created:** [August 6, 2013, 5:58pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/ohio-holocaust-memorial/665507 "2013-08-06T17:58:39Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 5
**Author:** ![Czarcasm](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/czarcasm/32/4050_2.png) [@Czarcasm](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Czarcasm)\ **Post date:** [August 7, 2013, 3:59am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/ohio-holocaust-memorial/665507/81 "2013-08-07T03:59:40Z")
> [@FinnAgain](#): > > … Jewish scholars. > > I mean, seriously, did you really think that the U.S. government is not just an authority on Jewish culture and religion, but that it speaks for Jews on matters of culture and religion? > > I would wager that Telushkin would be a good jumping off point for you, if you can’t accept the unanimous position of pretty much every Jew who posted in this thread. You might also have noticed that the old saw, “two Jews, three opinions,” and ideally you comprehend what it means that we’re all in agreement. > > Or you can continue to be difficult about it. You seem to totally misunderstand how this works legally. ---
**Author:** ![Terr](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/839c29/32.png) [@Terr](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Terr)\ **Post date:** [August 7, 2013, 4:04am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/ohio-holocaust-memorial/665507/82 "2013-08-07T04:04:34Z")
> [@Czarcasm](#): > > For the purpose of this exercise, if the courts decide that it is a religious symbol, then it is legally a religious symbol when it comes to using it on public land _even if every freakin’ rabbi in the whole world thinks otherwise._ I know that courts believe as many as six impossible things before breakfast. Still doesn’t make it less silly. And one may hope that once in a while sudden sanity strikes a particular judge. ---
**Author:** ![Captain\_Amazing](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/6de8d8/32.png) [@Captain\_Amazing](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Captain_Amazing)\ **Post date:** [August 7, 2013, 4:08am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/ohio-holocaust-memorial/665507/83 "2013-08-07T04:08:55Z")
There’s also apparently a memorial to the Armenian Genocide (as well as the Holocaust) at the Bergen County Courthouse in New Jersey. ---
**Author:** ![FinnAgain](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/finnagain/32/12500_2.png) [@FinnAgain](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/FinnAgain)\ **Post date:** [August 7, 2013, 4:11am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/ohio-holocaust-memorial/665507/84 "2013-08-07T04:11:37Z")
Ah, so you’ve abandoned your earlier claims (or Just Asking Questions, whatever term you prefer) and confusion and agree that any judges who said it’s a religious symbol were mistaken? Or are you going to argue, in public no less, that the Magen David became a religious symbol to the Jews, despite the Jews’ actual beliefs… because a judge said so? Are you just painting yourself into a corner, and you aren’t going to bring yourself to admit error? "I’m not sure what the facts are, but I’m prepared to be difficult about them. " ---
**Author:** ![Captain\_Amazing](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/6de8d8/32.png) [@Captain\_Amazing](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Captain_Amazing)\ **Post date:** [August 7, 2013, 4:19am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/ohio-holocaust-memorial/665507/85 "2013-08-07T04:19:28Z")
> [@FinnAgain](#): > > Ah, so you’ve abandoned your earlier claims (or Just Asking Questions, whatever term you prefer) and confusion and agree that any judges who said it’s a religious symbol were mistaken? Or are you going to argue, in public no less, that the Magen David became a religious symbol to the Jews, despite the Jews’ actual beliefs… because a judge said so? Are you just painting yourself into a corner, and you aren’t going to bring yourself to admit error? I think what he’s trying to argue (and I don’t express an opinion as to whether he’s doing a good job) is that, notwithstanding what actual Jews think about the Magen David, the US government considers the Magen David a religious symbol for the purposes of laws about religious symbols. So whether or not it really is is irrelevant. The government hath so decreed it. ---
**Author:** ![Czarcasm](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/czarcasm/32/4050_2.png) [@Czarcasm](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Czarcasm)\ **Post date:** [August 7, 2013, 4:20am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/ohio-holocaust-memorial/665507/86 "2013-08-07T04:20:54Z")
> [@FinnAgain](#): > > Ah, so you’ve abandoned your earlier claims (or Just Asking Questions, whatever term you prefer) and confusion and agree that any judges who said it’s a religious symbol were mistaken? Or are you going to argue, in public no less, that the Magen David became a religious symbol to the Jews, despite the Jews’ actual beliefs… because a judge said so? Are you just painting yourself into a corner, and you aren’t going to bring yourself to admit error? > > "I’m not sure what the facts are, but I’m prepared to be difficult about them. " If you are trying to create a pretzel with your statements, you’ve succeeded. It’s really very simple here: Out of three possible designs for a Holocaust memorial, they picked one that prominently displays the Star of David. Several people have come forth with evidence that they think shows that the Star of David has been used as a religious symbol by others that include the U.S. Government itself on occasion. If the courts\*(a U.S. court of law that is, not a gathering of rabbis) decides that, besides being a tribal symbol, it is also a religious symbol, then they might have to go back and look at the possibility of using one of the other two designs previously considered. This doesn’t have jack to do with the U.S. courts deciding on the personal beliefs of Jews-it has to do with how the symbol has been used by various groups (including, once again, the U.S. Government itself). ---
**Author:** ![Captain\_Amazing](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/6de8d8/32.png) [@Captain\_Amazing](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Captain_Amazing)\ **Post date:** [August 7, 2013, 4:27am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/ohio-holocaust-memorial/665507/87 "2013-08-07T04:27:26Z")
> [@Czarcasm](#): > > This doesn’t have jack to do with the U.S. courts deciding on the personal beliefs of Jews-it has to do with how the symbol has been used by various groups (including, once again, the U.S. Government itself). The big problem with that, though, is that it’s, once again, the majority deciding to define a minority without paying any attention to what the minority group actually believes or thinks. The majority is appropriating a Jewish symbol and defining what it means for Jews without actually caring what Jews think. ---
**Author:** ![Czarcasm](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/czarcasm/32/4050_2.png) [@Czarcasm](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Czarcasm)\ **Post date:** [August 7, 2013, 4:37am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/ohio-holocaust-memorial/665507/88 "2013-08-07T04:37:32Z")
> [@Captain\_Amazing](#): > > The big problem with that, though, is that it’s, once again, the majority deciding to define a minority without paying any attention to what the minority group actually believes or thinks. The majority is appropriating a Jewish symbol and defining what it means for Jews without actually caring what Jews think. Mr. Libeskind himself(the designer of the proposed monument) told the Ohio Statehouse Holocaust Memorial Artist Selection Committee that he himself was concerned whether the Star of David constituted a religious symbol. Various court cases over the years declared it to be a religious symbol-my cite is page two of the first link in the OP. edited to add: This isn’t about the majority defining a minority’s beliefs-this is about consistency of law. ---
**Author:** ![Captain\_Amazing](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/6de8d8/32.png) [@Captain\_Amazing](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Captain_Amazing)\ **Post date:** [August 7, 2013, 4:47am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/ohio-holocaust-memorial/665507/89 "2013-08-07T04:47:15Z")
Ever since the first court case said that the Star of David constituted a religious symbol, it’s been about the majority defining a minority’s beliefs. Even if the court says that the Star of David is a religious symbol, it’s factually not one. And if the law is consistently wrong, then maybe they should fix the law so that it doesn’t say false things. ---
**Author:** ![Terr](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/839c29/32.png) [@Terr](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Terr)\ **Post date:** [August 7, 2013, 4:47am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/ohio-holocaust-memorial/665507/90 "2013-08-07T04:47:44Z")
> [@Czarcasm](#): > > Mr. Libeskind himself(the designer of the proposed monument) told the Ohio Statehouse Holocaust Memorial Artist Selection Committee that he himself was concerned whether the Star of David constituted a religious symbol. FFRF (and you) misrepresented what Libeskind said. Here it is from the cite that they provided: Mr. Libeskind told the panel he, too, deliberated on whether the star was a religious symbol and concluded in discussions with other experts that, in the memorial’s instance, it is a reference to the star used by the Nazis to label Jews. There is no indication that Libeskind thinks that it is a religious symbol. ---
**Author:** ![Czarcasm](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/czarcasm/32/4050_2.png) [@Czarcasm](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Czarcasm)\ **Post date:** [August 7, 2013, 5:09am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/ohio-holocaust-memorial/665507/91 "2013-08-07T05:09:26Z")
> [@Terr](#): > > FFRF (and you) misrepresented what Libeskind said. Here it is from the cite that they provided: > > Mr. Libeskind told the panel he, too, deliberated on whether the star was a religious symbol and concluded in discussions with other experts that, in the memorial’s instance, it is a reference to the star used by the Nazis to label Jews. > > There is no indication that Libeskind thinks that it is a religious symbol. In what possible way does that differ from what I quoted? ---
**Author:** ![Terr](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/839c29/32.png) [@Terr](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Terr)\ **Post date:** [August 7, 2013, 5:11am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/ohio-holocaust-memorial/665507/92 "2013-08-07T05:11:18Z")
> [@Czarcasm](#): > > In what possible way does that differ from what I quoted? You said he was “concerned whether the Star of David constituted a religious symbol”. The quote shows no such “concern”. He “deliberated” - which is what all the posters on this thread do as well, including those that reject the idea that it is a religious symbol. Think why FFRF changed the word to the “concern” instead of quoting their source exactly. That may explain to you the difference. ---
**Author:** ![Dissonance](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/85f322/32.png) [@Dissonance](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Dissonance)\ **Post date:** [August 7, 2013, 5:24am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/ohio-holocaust-memorial/665507/93 "2013-08-07T05:24:33Z")
> [@Czarcasm](#): > > [From their website:](http://ffrf.org/news/news-releases/item/18172-ffrf-objects-to-religious-symbol-at-ohio-capitol) > > > [@](#): > > > > FFRF’s letter urges: “The monument could resemble numerous powerful war memorials across the U.S. which do not use any sectarian images, including the national World War II Memorial, the Vietnam Veterans Memorial and the Korean War Veterans Memorial. Each is secular in nature and without religious reference, which offends no one and is respected by all. The lack of religious imagery within those memorial designs neither diminishes their significance nor detracts from the respect and honor shown for the victims of those conflicts.” > > and points out that > > > [@](#): > > > > there were at least five million non-Jewish victims of the Holocaust, including gays, Jehovah’s Witnesses, Roma Gypsies, the disabled and many others who are excluded by use of the symbol. The FFRF really sounds like it has no idea what the holocaust was about based on those statement for two reasons: Jews were the primary victims of the holocaust, and of the five million non-Jewish victims they didn’t even mention the second largest group of victims by far, something that the inscription for the monument provided by **Jackmannii** - ``` Inspired by the Ohio soldiers who were part of the American liberation and survivors who made Ohio their home. ``` If you save one life, it is as if you have saved the world. In remembrance the six million Jews who perished in the Holocaust and millions more including prisoners of war, ethnic and religious minorities, homosexuals, the mentally ill, the disabled, and political dissidents who suffered under Nazi Germany. \* not only includes, it’s the first of the millions of others mentioned: prisoners of war, more specifically the millions of Soviet prisoners murdered by deliberate neglect by the Nazis. Slavic peoples were only slightly above Jews as subhumans to the Nazis. From the [US Holocaust Memorial Museum](http://www.ushmm.org/wlc/en/article.php?ModuleId=10007178): > [@](#): > > SOVIETS VIEWED AS SUBHUMAN ENEMIES > > Yet for Nazi Germany this attack was not an “ordinary” military operation. The war against the Soviet Union was a war of annihilation between German fascism and Soviet communism; a racial war between German “Aryans” and subhuman Slavs and Jews. From the very beginning this war of annihilation against the Soviet Union included the killing of prisoners of war (POWs) on a massive scale. German authorities viewed Soviet POWs as a particular threat, regarding them not only as Slavic subhumans but as part of the “Bolshevik menace” linked in their minds to a Jewish conspiracy. > > SECOND LARGEST GROUP OF NAZI VICTIMS > > The brutal treatment of Soviet POWs by the Germans violated every standard of warfare. Existing sources suggest that some 5.7 million Soviet army personnel fell into German hands during World War II. As of January 1945, the German army reported that only about 930,000 Soviet POWs remained in German custody. The German army released about one million Soviet POWs as auxiliaries of the German army and the SS. About half a million Soviet POWs had escaped German custody or had been liberated by the Soviet army as it advanced westward through eastern Europe into Germany. The remaining 3.3 million, or about 57 percent of those taken prisoner, were dead by the end of the war. Second only to the Jews, Soviet prisoners of war were the largest group of victims of Nazi racial policy. The Nazis weren’t killing Jews because of their religion, they were killing them because of their race. They didn’t care one whit if you were a practicing Jew or not when they forced them to wear a Star of David or when they committed mass murder against them. ---
**Author:** ![Czarcasm](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/czarcasm/32/4050_2.png) [@Czarcasm](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Czarcasm)\ **Post date:** [August 7, 2013, 5:27am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/ohio-holocaust-memorial/665507/94 "2013-08-07T05:27:44Z")
> [@Terr](#): > > You said he was “concerned whether the Star of David constituted a religious symbol”. The quote shows no such “concern”. He “deliberated” - which is what all the posters on this thread do as well, including those that reject the idea that it is a religious symbol. > > Think why FFRF changed the word to the “concern” instead of quoting their source exactly. That may explain to you the difference. Your mountain-my molehill. ---
**Author:** ![Czarcasm](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/czarcasm/32/4050_2.png) [@Czarcasm](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Czarcasm)\ **Post date:** [August 7, 2013, 5:32am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/ohio-holocaust-memorial/665507/95 "2013-08-07T05:32:20Z")
> [@Dissonance](#): > > The FFRF really sounds like it has no idea what the holocaust was about based on those statement for two reasons: Jews were the primary victims of the holocaust, and of the five million non-Jewish victims they didn’t even mention the second largest group of victims by far, something that the inscription for the monument provided by **Jackmannii** > > - > > ``` > Inspired by the Ohio soldiers who were part of the American liberation and survivors who made Ohio their home. > > ``` > > If you save one life, it is as if you have saved the world. > > In remembrance the six million Jews who perished in the Holocaust and millions more including prisoners of war, ethnic and religious minorities, homosexuals, the mentally ill, the disabled, and political dissidents who suffered under Nazi Germany. \* > > not only includes, it’s the first of the millions of others mentioned: prisoners of war, more specifically the millions of Soviet prisoners murdered by deliberate neglect by the Nazis. Slavic peoples were only slightly above Jews as subhumans to the Nazis. From the [US Holocaust Memorial Museum](http://www.ushmm.org/wlc/en/article.php?ModuleId=10007178):The Nazis weren’t killing Jews because of their religion, they were killing them because of their race. They didn’t care one whit if you were a practicing Jew or not when they forced them to wear a Star of David or when they committed mass murder against them. What the FFRF seems to be concerned with is displaying what the courts have already determined to be a religious symbol on public land when there was no need to do so because other designs were available. I wonder if it is possible that one of the reasons that particular design was chosen over the others was _because_ it would challenge the court’s rulings. ---
**Author:** ![Czarcasm](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/czarcasm/32/4050_2.png) [@Czarcasm](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Czarcasm)\ **Post date:** [August 7, 2013, 5:47am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/ohio-holocaust-memorial/665507/96 "2013-08-07T05:47:13Z")
[Video and transcript of show about this topic](http://www.patheos.com/blogs/camelswithhammers/2013/08/transcript-video-of-cwh-show-on-ohio-holocaust-memorial-designs/) that contains and more information about the selection committee and several different viewpoints from speakers about the memorial’s possible entanglement with the establishment clause. ---
**Author:** ![Jackmannii](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/jackmannii/32/311_2.png) [@Jackmannii](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Jackmannii)\ **Post date:** [August 7, 2013, 12:46pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/ohio-holocaust-memorial/665507/97 "2013-08-07T12:46:25Z")
> [@Captain\_Amazing](#): > > There’s a plaque recognizing the Armenian Genocide at the Colorado Capitol building. Has an Armenian cross on it too…There’s also apparently a memorial to the Armenian Genocide (as well as the Holocaust) at the Bergen County Courthouse in New Jersey. Apparently the people who installed those memorials thought their importance transcended national boundaries. Whatever public funds were spent on installing or maintaining them sound like a far better investment than what’s been spent installing and maintaining monuments to the Confederacy on public property.\*\* \*\*not to mention a much better use of taxpayer money than to defend [a lawsuit](http://www.southernheritage411.com/newsarticle2.php?rw=2542) aimed at preventing a Confederate monument from being removed from public property. ---
**Author:** ![Malthus](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/85f322/32.png) [@Malthus](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Malthus)\ **Post date:** [August 7, 2013, 1:32pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/ohio-holocaust-memorial/665507/98 "2013-08-07T13:32:38Z")
> [@Czarcasm](#): > > And again I ask, what _would_ be considered evidence for my position that the Star of David is both a tribal symbol for some and a religious symbol for others(which seem to include the U.S. Government-the ones that supposedly shouldn’t allow religious symbols to be used this way.)? I’m tired of playing the “No-_that’s_ not it” game-Just tell me what would qualify. Easy. Two things are necessary to demonstrate any symbol is a “religious” symbol (rather than any other sort of symbol). 1. A history of the religion in question and of the people who follow it, that that these people traditionally and historically treated the symbol as a religious symbol. 2. An explaination as to what, in fact, the symbol “symbolized”, and thus its religious nature. To give examples of the latter: - The Cross is a Christian religious symbol because it stands for the crucifiction of Jesus, who later rose from the dead. This is a foundational part of the Christian religion. - The tablets of the law is a Jewish religious symbol, because it symbolizes the ten commandments handed down personally to Moses by God on Mount Sinai. This is a foundational part of the Jewish religion. What does the star of David symbolize? Well, nothing religious. It is traditionally associated with the heraldic design (allegedly) used by King David on his shield. King David is an important quasi-historical figure in Judaism, but he is not (repeat not) a religious figure, like Jesus or Moses. He’s a powerful king, not a prophet or the son of God. In fact, he’s not even all that “good”, as he cheerfully committed adultery and murder in the Biblical account. The symbol is a bit of heraldry, and references no part of the Jewish faith. The symbol is, in short, no more “religious” than the use of lions on the coat of arms of England. Moreover, there is an obvious reason to use the symbol on a holocaust memorial: it references the Nazi use of the symbol to mark out Jews. The Nazis of course cared not a bit whether said Jews were religious or not, as to them Judaism was a matter of “race”, not religion. ---
**Author:** ![Czarcasm](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/czarcasm/32/4050_2.png) [@Czarcasm](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Czarcasm)\ **Post date:** [August 7, 2013, 2:12pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/ohio-holocaust-memorial/665507/99 "2013-08-07T14:12:37Z")
> [@Malthus](#): > > Easy. Two things are necessary to demonstrate any symbol is a “religious” symbol (rather than any other sort of symbol). > > 1. A history of the religion in question and of the people who follow it, that that these people traditionally and historically treated the symbol as a religious symbol. > > 2. An explaination as to what, in fact, the symbol “symbolized”, and thus its religious nature. > > To give examples of the latter: > > - The Cross is a Christian religious symbol because it stands for the crucifiction of Jesus, who later rose from the dead. This is a foundational part of the Christian religion. > > - The tablets of the law is a Jewish religious symbol, because it symbolizes the ten commandments handed down personally to Moses by God on Mount Sinai. This is a foundational part of the Jewish religion. > > What does the star of David symbolize? Well, nothing religious. It is traditionally associated with the heraldic design (allegedly) used by King David on his shield. > > King David is an important quasi-historical figure in Judaism, but he is not (repeat not) a religious figure, like Jesus or Moses. He’s a powerful king, not a prophet or the son of God. In fact, he’s not even all that “good”, as he cheerfully committed adultery and murder in the Biblical account. > > The symbol is a bit of heraldry, and references no part of the Jewish faith. The symbol is, in short, no more “religious” than the use of lions on the coat of arms of England. > > Moreover, there is an obvious reason to use the symbol on a holocaust memorial: it references the Nazi use of the symbol to mark out Jews. The Nazis of course cared not a bit whether said Jews were religious or not, as to them Judaism was a matter of “race”, not religion. Since the courts have previously established that it _is_ a religious symbol(hasn’t _anyone_ read the link in the OP?), all this history is interesting, but probably doesn’t have any legal standing…which, after all, is what this is all about. ---
**Author:** ![Spoke](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/a88e57/32.png) [@Spoke](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Spoke)\ **Post date:** [August 7, 2013, 2:19pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/ohio-holocaust-memorial/665507/100 "2013-08-07T14:19:06Z")
> [@Jackmannii](#): > > Apparently the people who installed those memorials thought their importance transcended national boundaries. Yeah, either that, or politicians are happy to cater to a voting/donating bloc. So next up, a monument at the Michigan Statehouse memorializing the Rape of Nanking. A monument at the Utah statehouse to the Rwandan genocide. A monument in South Dakota to Cromwell’s scourge of Ireland. Because grievances and victimhood must be nurtured-- for the sake of future generations! [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/ohio-holocaust-memorial/665507.md?page=4) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/ohio-holocaust-memorial/665507.md?page=6)