# Ohio Holocaust Memorial **URL:** \ **Category:** Great Debates\ **Created:** [August 6, 2013, 5:58pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/ohio-holocaust-memorial/665507 "2013-08-06T17:58:39Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 6
**Author:** ![Malthus](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/85f322/32.png) [@Malthus](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Malthus)\ **Post date:** [August 7, 2013, 2:20pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/ohio-holocaust-memorial/665507/101 "2013-08-07T14:20:17Z")
> [@Czarcasm](#): > > Since the courts have previously established that it _is_ a religious symbol(hasn’t _anyone_ read the link in the OP?), all this history is interesting, but probably doesn’t have any legal standing…which, after all, is what this is all about. I rather suspect that one should read the actual case-law cited, before determining what the courts have said, rather than relying on the recitation in a letter. Generally speaking, it is unwise to rely on cherry-picked comments from random cases cited by a partisan, as one cannot know (1) whether the case-law is consistebnt on the point, or (2) the context of the quotes. I myself lack the time for such an exercise. In any event, it is quite irrelevant to your question. You asked “what would be considered evidence for my position that the Star of David is both a tribal symbol for some and a religious symbol for others”. My post is an answer to your question. ---
**Author:** ![Bricker](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/977dab/32.png) [@Bricker](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Bricker)\ **Post date:** [August 7, 2013, 2:27pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/ohio-holocaust-memorial/665507/102 "2013-08-07T14:27:43Z")
> [@Czarcasm](#): > > What the FFRF seems to be concerned with is displaying what the courts have already determined to be a religious symbol on public land when there was no need to do so because other designs were available. It’s certainly been refreshing to read of your deep reverence for the law, **Czarcasm**. I will remember it. ---
**Author:** ![Czarcasm](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/czarcasm/32/4050_2.png) [@Czarcasm](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Czarcasm)\ **Post date:** [August 7, 2013, 2:38pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/ohio-holocaust-memorial/665507/103 "2013-08-07T14:38:05Z")
> [@Bricker](#): > > It’s certainly been refreshing to read of your deep reverence for the law, **Czarcasm**. I will remember it. Snark aside, what do you think about the FFRF’s contention that the Star of David could be considered a religious symbol? ---
**Author:** ![Malthus](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/85f322/32.png) [@Malthus](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Malthus)\ **Post date:** [August 7, 2013, 2:38pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/ohio-holocaust-memorial/665507/104 "2013-08-07T14:38:23Z")
To give but one example, here is the actual text of the first case cited in the Letter in the OP. [https://bulk.resource.org/courts.gov/c/F3/358/358.F3d.1020.02-2444\_1.html#fn4\_ref](https://bulk.resource.org/courts.gov/c/F3/358/358.F3d.1020.02-2444_1.html#fn4_ref) Note that the ratio of the case concerned the display of the ten commandments (an expressly religious symbol - one of the two examples I chose quite independently, above). The artistic motif included six-pointed stars, as is referenced exactly once, in thois sentence: > [@](#): > > So reads the approximately five-foot-tall granite monument at issue in this lawsuit. Above the inscription are two small tablets engraved with the Ten Commandments written in a Semitic script,2 an eye within a triangle,3 and an eagle gripping an American flag. Below it are two six-point stars,4 the intertwined symbols “chi” and "rho"5 and a small scroll reading, “PRESENTED TO THE CITY OF PLATTSMOUTH NEBRASKA BY FRATERNAL ORDER OF EAGLES PLATTSMOUTH AERIE NO. 365 1965.” The foot-notes read: > [@](#): > > 1. See Henry S. Noerdlinger, Moses and Egypt 38-43 (University of Southern California Press 1956) (discussing languages of the late Bronze Age, with photograph of nearly identical Ten Commandments monument created by Ralph Marcus of the Oriental Institute of the University of Chicago). The District Court identified the Semitic language as Hebrew, Plattsmouth’s briefs say it is Phoenician, but Moses and Egypt describes the language as “early Canaanite.” Id. at 40. It matters not which Semitic language is reproduced on the small tablets; for the purposes of this discussion it matters only that they purport to be a replica of the original Ten Commandments. > > 2. This image is also referred to as the Egyptian “all-seeing eye” and can be seen atop a pyramid on the back of a dollar bill > > 3. The six-point star is the Star of David, a symbol of the Jewish religion > > 4. The Greek letters “chi” and “rho” are used to symbolize Christ in the Christian religion The majority of the Court then went on to state that the ten commandments monument failed the two-pronged test established by the case law, the second prong of which is as follows: > [@](#): > > The reasonable observer whose perspective we must adopt when deciding the effect of the monument is more informed about the monument and its history than are uninformed passers-by. Books, 235 F.3d at 306 (“In assessing the situation before us, we must ask whether an objective observer familiar with the history and placement of the Ten Commandments monument would perceive it as a state endorsement of religion.”); see also Capitol Square Review & Advisory Bd. v. Pinette, 515 U.S. 753, 779-781, 115 S.Ct. 2440, 132 L.Ed.2d 650 (1995) (O’Connor, J., concurring); Freethought Soc’y, 334 F.3d at 259. Therefore, we look to the perspective of a reasonable observer aware of the monument’s history, including the Eagles’s national project that landed it in Memorial Park and the many civic contributions of the Plattsmouth Eagles. Our reasonable observer would know City employees erected it in 1965 and re-erected it in 2001. This observer would be able to recognize the symbols on the monument and be aware the Ten Commandments are a sacred text found in the Judeo-Christian and Islamic religions. This is a well informed observer indeed, because he or she knows that, while Plattsmouth has accepted and erected other donated items in the park, none of those items bears a religious text or conveys any religious message. Finally, our reasonable observer would be aware of Plattsmouth’s proffered reason for erecting the monument — offered some thirty-five years after the fact — and would know he or she is not required to accept the City’s explanation. [Emphasis added] In short, the court merely mentioned the star in a footnote, in a purely descriptive manner. It did not, contrary to the assertions made in the letter in the OP, find as a fact that the star of david was a “religious symbol”. That issue was not before the Court at all. Very obviously the Court ment little more that “this is a star of david, a symbol of Judaism”. The difference between Judaism-as-religion and Judaism-as-tribal-identity was not an issue before the court at all. Moreover, the design included symbols which were not religious - such as the all-seeing eye, that is on the US dollar bill. Further, the very test asserted in that case would require the same exercise I put to **Czarcasm** - namely, an examination, in context, of the meaning of the symbol by an objective observer familiar with its history. This represents an almost text-book case of why one should actually read the case-law and not rely on cherry-picked quotes to overstate one’s position. ---
**Author:** ![Czarcasm](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/czarcasm/32/4050_2.png) [@Czarcasm](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Czarcasm)\ **Post date:** [August 7, 2013, 2:42pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/ohio-holocaust-memorial/665507/105 "2013-08-07T14:42:06Z")
[This article from the Encyclopedia Britannica](http://www.britannica.com/EBchecked/topic/152589/Star-of-David) talks about its mystical/religious origins and it’s official adaptation as a symbol of Judaism in 18th century Prague. ---
**Author:** ![Czarcasm](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/czarcasm/32/4050_2.png) [@Czarcasm](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Czarcasm)\ **Post date:** [August 7, 2013, 2:49pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/ohio-holocaust-memorial/665507/106 "2013-08-07T14:49:51Z")
> [@Malthus](#): > > Easy. Two things are necessary to demonstrate any symbol is a “religious” symbol (rather than any other sort of symbol). > > 1. A history of the religion in question and of the people who follow it, that that these people traditionally and historically treated the symbol as a religious symbol. > > 2. An explaination as to what, in fact, the symbol “symbolized”, and thus its religious nature. Can a non-religious symbol _become_ a religious symbol over time, or must it originate as a religious symbol? ---
**Author:** ![Malthus](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/85f322/32.png) [@Malthus](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Malthus)\ **Post date:** [August 7, 2013, 2:51pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/ohio-holocaust-memorial/665507/107 "2013-08-07T14:51:12Z")
> [@Czarcasm](#): > > [This article from the Encyclopedia Britannica](http://www.britannica.com/EBchecked/topic/152589/Star-of-David) talks about its mystical/religious origins and it’s official adaptation as a symbol of Judaism in 18th century Prague. You are the hypothetical “reasonable observer” of a Holocaust Memorial in Ohio. You observe a Star of David worked into the design. In your mind, which is reasonably educated, you associate this symbol primarily with (check one only, please): A. The Nazi use of the “Star of David” as part of their henous plans to exterminate Jews, by forcing Jews to wear the Star; or B. The use of the “Star of David” by Kabbalists in medieval Prague to ward off demons. ---
**Author:** ![Malthus](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/85f322/32.png) [@Malthus](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Malthus)\ **Post date:** [August 7, 2013, 2:53pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/ohio-holocaust-memorial/665507/108 "2013-08-07T14:53:36Z")
> [@Czarcasm](#): > > Can a non-religious symbol _become_ a religious symbol over time, or must it originate as a religious symbol? Certainly a non-religious symbol can become one, if it is invested with a religious meaning. The Star of David has none, to Jews. It is a tribal symbol which has becime a national symbol as well, by adoption in the heraldry of Israel. ---
**Author:** ![Czarcasm](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/czarcasm/32/4050_2.png) [@Czarcasm](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Czarcasm)\ **Post date:** [August 7, 2013, 2:56pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/ohio-holocaust-memorial/665507/109 "2013-08-07T14:56:40Z")
> [@Malthus](#): > > You are the hypothetical “reasonable observer” of a Holocaust Memorial in Ohio. You observe a Star of David worked into the design. > > In your mind, which is reasonably educated, you associate this symbol primarily with (check one only, please): > > A. The Nazi use of the “Star of David” as part of their henous plans to exterminate Jews, by forcing Jews to wear the Star; or > > B. The use of the “Star of David” by Kabbalists in medieval Prague to ward off demons. C. A symbol of Judaism. ---
**Author:** ![lawbuff](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/l/13edae/32.png) [@lawbuff](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/lawbuff)\ **Post date:** [August 7, 2013, 3:01pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/ohio-holocaust-memorial/665507/110 "2013-08-07T15:01:29Z")
> [@ITR\_champion](#): > > The State of Ohio is planning to build a Holocaust Memorial on government property near its state house. Like most such memorials around the world, this one will include the Star of David. > > Personally I’ve never agreed with the claim that it’s unconstitutional to have a religious symbol on government property. However, it seems to me obvious that _if_ anyone agrees with the judges who have ruled that way, then the Star of David on this monument and numerous others will have to go. Many years ago the ACLU filed suit to have the words from Ohio’s Motto “With God all things are possible” declared UNconstitutional, they failed. Also, many states have reference to some type of Diety in thier Constitution Preamble’s. This reminds me of the Stephen Austin case out of a Texas town where they had a cross on the city seal, presumbaly a Christian Cross. After suit was filed, the Court declared it more of a “Historical” symbol then religious. If I remember right, we had such a case in Ohio, very similar in nature. I do know that was declared to violate the Establishment Clause. ---
**Author:** ![Czarcasm](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/czarcasm/32/4050_2.png) [@Czarcasm](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Czarcasm)\ **Post date:** [August 7, 2013, 3:16pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/ohio-holocaust-memorial/665507/111 "2013-08-07T15:16:46Z")
Personally, I think the FFRF may lose(on the state level, at least), seeing as how the official state motto of Ohio is a direct quote from the New Testament. It’s supposed non-religious historical origin? > [@statesymbolsusa.org](#): > > “With God All Things Are Possible” became Ohio’s state motto on October 1, 1959. A twelve-year-old boy named James Mastronardo recommended this quotation from the bible during a contest sponsored by the Ohio legislature in the early 1950’s to select a state motto. A legal system that doesn’t see any Establishment Clause entanglement with _that_ isn’t likely to give the proposed memorial supporters any grief, so rest easy. ---
**Author:** ![lawbuff](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/l/13edae/32.png) [@lawbuff](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/lawbuff)\ **Post date:** [August 7, 2013, 3:20pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/ohio-holocaust-memorial/665507/112 "2013-08-07T15:20:33Z")
Chapter 5: STATE INSIGNIA; SEALS; HOLIDAYS 5.06 State motto. “With God, All Things Are Possible” shall be adopted as the official motto of the state. Effective Date: 10-01-1959 ---
**Author:** ![treis](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/bc79bd/32.png) [@treis](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/treis)\ **Post date:** [August 7, 2013, 4:09pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/ohio-holocaust-memorial/665507/113 "2013-08-07T16:09:01Z")
> [@Malthus](#): > > You are the hypothetical “reasonable observer” of a Holocaust Memorial in Ohio. You observe a Star of David worked into the design. > > In your mind, which is reasonably educated, you associate this symbol primarily with (check one only, please): > > A. The Nazi use of the “Star of David” as part of their henous plans to exterminate Jews, by forcing Jews to wear the Star; or > > B. The use of the “Star of David” by Kabbalists in medieval Prague to ward off demons. This was a poor hypothetical for your side. Because when I see the Star of David I think Jews. I certainly don’t think that it represents a group that: (1) Is ethnically Jewish (2) But does not include those that have converted to Judiasm (3) But does include atheist Jews Symbols are like words. Their meaning is what most people believe their meaning are. Very few are going to see the Star of David and realize that it refers to the Jewish people and not the Jewish religion. Most are going to think it refers to Judiasm. ---
**Author:** ![Jackmannii](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/jackmannii/32/311_2.png) [@Jackmannii](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Jackmannii)\ **Post date:** [August 7, 2013, 4:15pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/ohio-holocaust-memorial/665507/114 "2013-08-07T16:15:45Z")
[QUOTE=Spoke] So next up, a monument at the Michigan Statehouse memorializing the Rape of Nanking. [/quote] Oh dear, the dreaded Slippery Slope has reared its greasy head! > [@Spoke](#): > > Because grievances and victimhood must be nurtured-- for the sake of future generations! Isn’t that the Sons of Confederate Veterans’ official motto? 😃 ---
**Author:** ![Finagle](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/f/b19c9b/32.png) [@Finagle](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Finagle)\ **Post date:** [August 7, 2013, 4:18pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/ohio-holocaust-memorial/665507/115 "2013-08-07T16:18:34Z")
> [@Malthus](#): > > I think the point is that there is basically zero evidence that the symbol is a “religious” one. Have we tried it on vampires? ---
**Author:** ![Spoke](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/a88e57/32.png) [@Spoke](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Spoke)\ **Post date:** [August 7, 2013, 4:32pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/ohio-holocaust-memorial/665507/116 "2013-08-07T16:32:11Z")
> [@Jackmannii](#): > > Oh dear, the dreaded Slippery Slope has reared its greasy head!Isn’t that the Sons of Confederate Veterans’ official motto? 😃 If you know any members, we can ask 'em. ---
**Author:** ![Terr](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/839c29/32.png) [@Terr](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Terr)\ **Post date:** [August 7, 2013, 4:45pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/ohio-holocaust-memorial/665507/117 "2013-08-07T16:45:54Z")
> [@treis](#): > > Because when I see the Star of David I think Jews. Good. That’s what it is supposed to symbolize. ---
**Author:** ![Czarcasm](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/czarcasm/32/4050_2.png) [@Czarcasm](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Czarcasm)\ **Post date:** [August 7, 2013, 5:02pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/ohio-holocaust-memorial/665507/118 "2013-08-07T17:02:16Z")
> [@Terr](#): > > Good. That’s what it is supposed to symbolize. Why did you leave off the part where he explains that he means the religion, not the tribe? ---
**Author:** ![Terr](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/839c29/32.png) [@Terr](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Terr)\ **Post date:** [August 7, 2013, 5:05pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/ohio-holocaust-memorial/665507/119 "2013-08-07T17:05:30Z")
> [@Czarcasm](#): > > Why did you leave off the part where he explains that he means the religion, not the tribe? He doesn’t. “Jews” is not a religion. He apparently doesn’t understand there’s a difference, but that’s his problem. Magen David symbolizes Jews. That’s how it should be. ---
**Author:** ![FinnAgain](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/finnagain/32/12500_2.png) [@FinnAgain](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/FinnAgain)\ **Post date:** [August 7, 2013, 5:07pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/ohio-holocaust-memorial/665507/120 "2013-08-07T17:07:22Z")
> [@Czarcasm](#): > > If you are trying to create a pretzel with your statements, you’ve succeeded. Just pointing out that your argument is an absolute absurdity to the point of virtually complete semantic incoherence. You are actually arguing that, despite the fact that the Magen David is not a religious symbol, if the US courts rule it’s a religious symbol of Judaism (the religion) rather than Judaism (the cultural/ideological/social traditions, institutions, etc…), then, well, it counts as one. Incomprehensibly, you seem to be arguing that even if the courts got it wildly wrong, we should just accept that. And Bricker is right. If you disagree with him when he takes essentially the same position in virtually any law thread he ever posts in, your argument will be hypocritical in the extreme. And you’ve dumped all of this nonsense in spite, and actually in the teeth of Jews saying “No, it really isn’t a religious symbol.” Your argument seems to be that either the US government actually can tell religions what they really think and what their symbols are, and overrule the objections of those who actually follow those religions… or that the judges were wrong, but we shouldn’t care because, well, the gods only know why, but darnit you’re stickin’ to your tack. Boy howdy, are ya. > [@Czarcasm](#): > > Out of three possible designs for a Holocaust memorial, they picked one that prominently displays the Star of David. Which has no religious significance to Jews, is a cultural symbol only, has specific and massive historical relevancy both due to the Nazis’ yellow stars and the fact that the idea of vernichtung essentially began with Mein Kampf, which focused almost exclusively on the Jews. Of course, there is no actual evidence, and you certainly haven’t provided any evidence at all for your claim that that the Magen David actually is a religious symbol (because it isn’t). The best you’ve done is point to a list that included a symbol for atheism while you hilariously claimed that the list somehow was proof of what’s a religion and what’s not. Oh yeah, and a cite pointing to the Magen David’s origin in Kabbalism. That Britannica cite doesn’t mention anything about it even being a religious symbol, which makes your use of it even more bwahhh?!? inducing. In fact, it points out that in the Middle Ages when the Magen David was first in use, it has no religious significance. It goes on to point out that the Magen David was a sign of _Jewish communities_, not _not Jewish congregations_. All it does claim is that the Jews adopted it in imitation of Christians’ use of the cross. I’d need an actual citation for that other than Britannica’s word, as no rabbi I’ve ever spoken to has said any such thing. Ever. But all this seems to be academic, as you refuse to listen to the unanimous consensus of Jews in this thread who actually know what our religious heritage contains… better than a set of most-likely-gentile-judges do (go figure).You’ve evidently decided on your conclusion, and you seem to be casting about, somewhat ineffectively and aimlessly, for facts that you can use to support what you already decided. > [@Czarcasm](#): > > If the courts\*(a U.S. court of law that is, not a gathering of rabbis) decides that, besides being a tribal symbol, it is also a religious symbol, then they might have to go back and look at the possibility of using one of the other two designs previously considered. They might also go out and drink a lot of Everclear and then go shoot shotguns. Lots of things “might happen”. But as the Magen David is not a religious symbol to Jews (is this starting to sink into your head, yet?), there is no reason to go based on flawed precedents, especially if a court case could overturn them with, go figure, an actually accurate knowledge of Jews and Judaism. This seems kinda basic. If Jews know that the Magen David isn’t a religious symbol, and some judges didn’t know that and ruled contrary to the facts in relevant cases (although that claim too now seems specious, thanks Malthus!), all that means is that they fucked up. Why on Earth you’re defending this is beyond me. > [@Czarcasm](#): > > This doesn’t have jack to do with the U.S. courts deciding on the personal beliefs of Jews-it has to do with how the symbol has been used by various groups (including, once again, the U.S. Government itself). This has to take the cake. Not only are you contradicting yourself from one sentence to the next (quite amusingly, I might add…), but you actually just argued that what’s at issue is “how the [Magen David] has been used by […] the U.s. Government itself” I mean, seriously, this comedy is solid gold. The manner in which the U.S. government “used” the Magen David (long, varied, easily citeable history of that, eh?) Seriously, re-read what you just wrote. You just argued is that the majority gets to “use” a minority cultural group’s cultural symbol, claim it’s religious, and then block that culture from using their non-religious, solely cultural symbol. That, right after claiming that it’s not about the majority imposing their beliefs upon, and trampling the actual beliefs of, minorities. And this is what you think is not only good policy, but something you want to defend? Your argument is meshugenah. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/ohio-holocaust-memorial/665507.md?page=5) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/ohio-holocaust-memorial/665507.md?page=7)