# Ohio Holocaust Memorial **URL:** \ **Category:** Great Debates\ **Created:** [August 6, 2013, 5:58pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/ohio-holocaust-memorial/665507 "2013-08-06T17:58:39Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 7
**Author:** ![Malthus](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/85f322/32.png) [@Malthus](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Malthus)\ **Post date:** [August 7, 2013, 5:16pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/ohio-holocaust-memorial/665507/121 "2013-08-07T17:16:48Z")
> [@treis](#): > > This was a poor hypothetical for your side. Because when I see the Star of David I think Jews. I certainly don’t think that it represents a group that: > > (1) Is ethnically Jewish > > (2) But does not include those that have converted to Judiasm > > (3) But does include atheist Jews > > Symbols are like words. Their meaning is what most people believe their meaning are. Very few are going to see the Star of David and realize that it refers to the Jewish people and not the Jewish religion. Most are going to think it refers to Judiasm. That’s what it symbolizes - Jews. What you apparently do not understand (but what is known to Jews) is that Judaism isn’t simply a religion. It is not the same as “Catholicism”. Judaism is a tribal identity. There is absolutely no contradiction is saying that someone is an “atheist Jew”, any more than there is in saying someone is an “athiest Irishman”. This is true whether you, personally, happen to know about it or not. The standard set by the court in the very case cited by the group in the OP, and from which I have quoted above, is not of the ignorant bystander, but of the informed and historically-aware bystander. Such a person would, of necessity, know that the symbol was a tribal amd national symbol for Jews, and not a religious one. They would know of its use in Zionism, of its perversion by the Nazis, and of the fact that it is on the current Flag of the State of Israel. ---
**Author:** ![treis](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/bc79bd/32.png) [@treis](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/treis)\ **Post date:** [August 7, 2013, 5:19pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/ohio-holocaust-memorial/665507/122 "2013-08-07T17:19:01Z")
> [@Czarcasm](#): > > Why did you leave off the part where he explains that he means the religion, not the tribe? > [@Terr](#): > > He doesn’t. “Jews” is not a religion. He apparently doesn’t understand there’s a difference, but that’s his problem. Magen David symbolizes Jews. That’s how it should be. Que? > [@treis](#): > > Very few are going to see the Star of David and realize that it refers to the Jewish people and not the Jewish religion. Most are going to think it refers to Judiasm. ---
**Author:** ![Terr](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/839c29/32.png) [@Terr](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Terr)\ **Post date:** [August 7, 2013, 5:20pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/ohio-holocaust-memorial/665507/123 "2013-08-07T17:20:23Z")
> [@treis](#): > > Que? Quote from treis: “Because when I see the Star of David I think Jews.” ---
**Author:** ![Czarcasm](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/czarcasm/32/4050_2.png) [@Czarcasm](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Czarcasm)\ **Post date:** [August 7, 2013, 5:22pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/ohio-holocaust-memorial/665507/124 "2013-08-07T17:22:31Z")
> [@Terr](#): > > Quote from treis: “Because when I see the Star of David I think Jews.” The fact remains that he _wasn’t_ in agreement with you, and to pretend otherwise is childish. ---
**Author:** ![Spoke](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/a88e57/32.png) [@Spoke](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Spoke)\ **Post date:** [August 7, 2013, 5:25pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/ohio-holocaust-memorial/665507/125 "2013-08-07T17:25:11Z")
I understand religious symbols. But _tribal_ symbols? To what purpose? Tribal solidarity? Seems to me this is how ideas like “the international Jew” and “those Jews all stick together” get started. I am not endorsing those ideas, ftr, just questioning the wisdom of such heavy emphasis on tribal identity. But that’s a different debate, I guess. ---
**Author:** ![Malthus](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/85f322/32.png) [@Malthus](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Malthus)\ **Post date:** [August 7, 2013, 5:26pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/ohio-holocaust-memorial/665507/126 "2013-08-07T17:26:53Z")
Edit: I forgotb to address this, from Tres’s post: > [@](#): > > (2) But does not include those that have converted to Judiasm That’s not how a tribal identity works. Someone who converts to Judaism (via religion) becomes a full member of the tribe, no different from any other Jew - by Jewish law. Tribal identity, unlike racial identity, is established by rules - the rules of the Tribe. Inheritance may do it (following the rules), but so can conversion. Tribal identity can be lost, too - for example, by conversion to a religion incompatible with Judaism. An atheist can be a Jew, but not a Catholic. The Nazi attempts to regulate who was Jewish by “race” were, of course, nonsense to Jews. Note that race has, literally, nothing to do with tribal identity. A Polish Jew is a Jew and an Etheopian Jew is a Jew, even though one is White and one is Black (the current “Ms. Israel” is Black, and Jewish). So, if someone converts to Judaism, they are as much “covered” by a Star of David as someone born to a Jewish mother. They just took two different routes to becomming Jewish, under the laws of the tribe. ---
**Author:** ![Terr](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/839c29/32.png) [@Terr](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Terr)\ **Post date:** [August 7, 2013, 5:27pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/ohio-holocaust-memorial/665507/127 "2013-08-07T17:27:21Z")
> [@Czarcasm](#): > > The fact remains that he _wasn’t_ in agreement with you, and to pretend otherwise is childish. So when he says that when he sees the Star of David he thinks Jews he doesn’t mean that Star of David symbolizes Jews? ---
**Author:** ![Malthus](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/85f322/32.png) [@Malthus](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Malthus)\ **Post date:** [August 7, 2013, 5:28pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/ohio-holocaust-memorial/665507/128 "2013-08-07T17:28:47Z")
> [@Spoke](#): > > I understand religious symbols. But _tribal_ symbols? To what purpose? Tribal solidarity? Seems to me this is how ideas like “the international Jew” and “those Jews all stick together” get started. I am not endorsing those ideas, ftr, just questioning the wisdom of such heavy emphasis on tribal identity. But that’s a different debate, I guess. Huh? Think of it as a “national” symbol, if it makes you feel better. Why is it somehow nefarious that Jews wish to self-identify as Jews, any more than “kiss me, I’m Irish”? ---
**Author:** ![Malthus](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/85f322/32.png) [@Malthus](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Malthus)\ **Post date:** [August 7, 2013, 5:31pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/ohio-holocaust-memorial/665507/129 "2013-08-07T17:31:27Z")
> [@Czarcasm](#): > > The fact remains that he _wasn’t_ in agreement with you, and to pretend otherwise is childish. He doesn’t agree, because when he thinks “Jews” he thinks only of religious Jews. That not what Jews think, when they think of Jews. ---
**Author:** ![treis](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/bc79bd/32.png) [@treis](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/treis)\ **Post date:** [August 7, 2013, 5:35pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/ohio-holocaust-memorial/665507/130 "2013-08-07T17:35:42Z")
> [@Malthus](#): > > That’s what it symbolizes - Jews. > > What you apparently do not understand (but what is known to Jews) is that Judaism isn’t simply a religion. It is not the same as “Catholicism”. > > Judaism is a tribal identity. There is absolutely no contradiction is saying that someone is an “atheist Jew”, any more than there is in saying someone is an “athiest Irishman”. Spare me your demeaning lectures. > [@Malthus](#): > > This is true whether you, personally, happen to know about it or not. The standard set by the court in the very case cited by the group in the OP, and from which I have quoted above, is not of the ignorant bystander, but of the informed and historically-aware bystander. > > Such a person would, of necessity, know that the symbol was a tribal amd national symbol for Jews, and not a religious one. They would know of its use in Zionism, of its perversion by the Nazis, and of the fact that it is on the current Flag of the State of Israel. That may what it used to represent, but today in America it represents the religion as well. For example, when I do a google image search for “interfaith council logo” I count seven Stars of David without having to scroll. [link to search results](https://www.google.com/search?q=interfaith+council&rlz=1C1CHMO_enUS499US499&um=1&ie=UTF-8&hl=en&tbm=isch&source=og&sa=N&tab=wi&ei=MoICUvjnGYfu8ATZ9YGQBw&biw=1920&bih=955&sei=coICUtLAK5PQ9gS2u4HQAQ#bav=on.2,or.r_qf.&fp=6d991ab5621a30fa&hl=en&q=interfaith+council+logo&sa=1&safe=off&tbm=isch&um=1) ---
**Author:** ![Czarcasm](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/czarcasm/32/4050_2.png) [@Czarcasm](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Czarcasm)\ **Post date:** [August 7, 2013, 5:35pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/ohio-holocaust-memorial/665507/131 "2013-08-07T17:35:46Z")
> [@Malthus](#): > > That’s not how a tribal identity works. Someone who converts to Judaism (via religion) becomes a full member of the tribe, no different from any other Jew - by Jewish law. But the tribal membership is the aftereffect-the newly converted is first joining the _religion_, right? An Ethiopian Jew is as much a member of the tribe as is any other Jew, but only because she/he is Jewish. Is there a way for an outsider to become a member of the Jewish tribe and adapt the Star of David symbol without first becoming a member of the Jewish faith? Can a gentile _become_ a non-religious Jew and thus use the symbol? ---
**Author:** ![Really\_Not\_All\_That\_Bright](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/e8c25b/32.png) [@Really\_Not\_All\_That\_Bright](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Really_Not_All_That_Bright)\ **Post date:** [August 7, 2013, 5:43pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/ohio-holocaust-memorial/665507/132 "2013-08-07T17:43:23Z")
The fact that a court of law somewhere has deemed a Star of David does not make it so. If a court erroneously concluded that a banana was a symbol of Hypotheticalreligionism, that would not make it so. At the same time, I would point out to the people arguing with you that courts don’t come up with this stuff in a vacuum. They had to find some evidence first. > [@](#): > > …Rabbi Saul Osadchey, testified at length about the history and evolution of the Star of David as a symbol of Judaism. He traced the origin of the Star of David from its first reference in the Koran, as the Shield of David, to the Middle Ages, when it was used in a non-religious context both as a printer’s sign and to denote official Jewish documents, up until its modern day usage as a symbol representing Judaism. He stated that this public display of the Star of David reminded him of the Holocaust when it was used by Nazi Germany to denigrate Judaism. He further testified that this usage of the Star of David hurt his ability to educate children and demonstrated that the government is giving preference to one religion over another. He stated that the erection of the Star of David by a non-Jew had absolutely no religious significance. > > \ > > That the cross and the Star of David are the primary symbols for Christianity and Judaism respectively is beyond question. > > Greater Houston Chapter of Am. Civil Liberties Union v. Eckels, 589 F. Supp. 222, 226 (S.D. Tex. 1984) I feel mentally enriched having learned that it’s called a Magan David in Hebrew, so thanks, **Terr**. [QUOTE=FinnAgain] Your argument seems to be that either the US government actually can tell religions what they really think and what their symbols are, and overrule the objections of those who actually follow those religions… [/QUOTE] Well, yes, at least as a matter of law where Jews are not the proponents of the symbol. Return to my banana hypothetical. Jews don’t have to venerate the Star of David because the government says so, but it’s important to remember that the accuracy is irrelevant to the Establishment Clause. All that matters under the Lemon test is (1) the enactment must have secular legislative purpose, (2) its principal or primary effect must be one that neither advances nor inhibits religion, and (3) it must not foster excessive government entanglement with religion. The meaningful question here is not whether the Star of David is a religious symbol. It’s whether the government putting up the monument (or hosting it) _intends_ for it to be one. That’s a question of fact, not law, and we’re not equipped to address it here. > [@Dissonance](#): > > The Nazis weren’t killing Jews because of their religion, they were killing them because of their race. They didn’t care one whit if you were a practicing Jew or not when they forced them to wear a Star of David or when they committed mass murder against them. Are you sure? I am somewhat dubious that the Nazis tried to exterminate, say, ethnic Jews who converted to Catholicism as much as ethnic Jews who practiced Judaism. ---
**Author:** ![Malthus](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/85f322/32.png) [@Malthus](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Malthus)\ **Post date:** [August 7, 2013, 5:45pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/ohio-holocaust-memorial/665507/133 "2013-08-07T17:45:27Z")
> [@treis](#): > > Spare me your demeaning lectures. It osn’t a “demeaning lecture”. You evidently do not know this stuff, and it is important information for the argument. What you are doing, is making a classic argumentitive fallacy - an “argument from ignorance”. > **[Argument from ignorance](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Argument_from_ignorance)** > > Argument from ignorance (Latin: argumentum ad ignorantiam), or appeal to ignorance,\[a\] is an informal fallacy where something is claimed to be true or false because of a lack of evidence to the contrary. > The fallacy is committed when one asserts that a proposition is true because it has not yet been proven false or a proposition is false because it has not yet been proven true. If a proposition has not yet been proven true, one is not entitled to conclude, solely on that basis, that it is false,... > [@](#): > > Argument from self-knowing (auto-epistemic)[edit source | edit]Arguments from self-knowing take the form: > > 1.If P were true then I would know it; in fact I do not know it; therefore P cannot be true. Your argument amounts to ‘when I see this symbol, I think of the Jewish religion. I assume everyone else does, too. Therefore, that is what it means’. What you are ignorant about, is the use of this symbol by Jews, and its actual history and significance. There is no shame in not knowing that stuff - I mean, why should you? I don’t know the history of lots of symbols. > [@](#): > > That may what it used to represent, but today in America it represents the religion as well. For example, when I do a google image search for “interfaith council logo” I count seven Stars of David without having to scroll. > > [link to search results](https://www.google.com/search?q=interfaith+council&rlz=1C1CHMO_enUS499US499&um=1&ie=UTF-8&hl=en&tbm=isch&source=og&sa=N&tab=wi&ei=MoICUvjnGYfu8ATZ9YGQBw&biw=1920&bih=955&sei=coICUtLAK5PQ9gS2u4HQAQ#bav=on.2,or.r_qf.&fp=6d991ab5621a30fa&hl=en&q=interfaith+council+logo&sa=1&safe=off&tbm=isch&um=1) Google-bombing isn’t evidence of anything, pretty well ever. Sure, Jews use the symbol a lot, both religious Jews and non-religious Jews. Try goodling “Israeli Flag”. Or “Israeli Atheists”. > **[Facebook](https://www.facebook.com/IsraeliAtheists)** Note the symbol they are using. ---
**Author:** ![FinnAgain](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/finnagain/32/12500_2.png) [@FinnAgain](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/FinnAgain)\ **Post date:** [August 7, 2013, 5:47pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/ohio-holocaust-memorial/665507/134 "2013-08-07T17:47:11Z")
> [@Spoke](#): > > ISeems to me this is how ideas like “the international Jew” and “those Jews all stick together” get started. I am not endorsing those ideas, ftr, just questioning the wisdom of such heavy emphasis on tribal identity. Ah, you’re Just Asking Questions while adding in a “Jews are the cause of anti-Semitism themselves, not that I’m endorsing that, mind you…” Quelle surprise! ---
**Author:** ![Guinastasia](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/guinastasia/32/5751_2.png) [@Guinastasia](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Guinastasia)\ **Post date:** [August 7, 2013, 5:47pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/ohio-holocaust-memorial/665507/135 "2013-08-07T17:47:25Z")
> [@lawbuff](#): > > This reminds me of the Stephen Austin case out of a Texas town where they had a cross on the city seal, presumbaly a Christian Cross. After suit was filed, the Court declared it more of a “Historical” symbol then religious. What was the name of the town, though? I do remember someone brought a case against there being a cross on the seal of Las Cruces, NM. (Of course, said individual apparently was unaware that “Las Cruces” translates to “The Crosses”, so the whole thing was kinda stupid.) Is that the one you’re thinking of? ---
**Author:** ![Czarcasm](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/czarcasm/32/4050_2.png) [@Czarcasm](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Czarcasm)\ **Post date:** [August 7, 2013, 5:51pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/ohio-holocaust-memorial/665507/136 "2013-08-07T17:51:57Z")
> [@Malthus](#): > > It osn’t a “demeaning lecture”. You evidently do not know this stuff, and it is important information for the argument. > > What you are doing, is making a classic argumentitive fallacy - an “argument from ignorance”. > > [Argument from ignorance - Wikipedia](http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Argument_from_ignorance) > > Your argument amounts to ‘when I see this symbol, I think of the Jewish religion. I assume everyone else does, too. Therefore, that is what it means’. > > What you are ignorant about, is the use of this symbol by Jews, and its actual history and significance. > > There is no shame in not knowing that stuff - I mean, why should you? I don’t know the history of lots of symbols. > > Google-bombing isn’t evidence of anything, pretty well ever. Sure, Jews use the symbol a lot, both religious Jews and non-religious Jews. Try goodling “Israeli Flag”. Or “Israeli Atheists”. > > [https://www.facebook.com/IsraeliAtheists](https://www.facebook.com/IsraeliAtheists) > > Note the symbol they are using. We are talking about the establishment clause here. Did you happen to read the post above yours? ---
**Author:** ![Really\_Not\_All\_That\_Bright](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/e8c25b/32.png) [@Really\_Not\_All\_That\_Bright](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Really_Not_All_That_Bright)\ **Post date:** [August 7, 2013, 5:54pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/ohio-holocaust-memorial/665507/137 "2013-08-07T17:54:22Z")
He only posted a minute after me so he probably didn’t have a chance. ---
**Author:** ![Terr](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/839c29/32.png) [@Terr](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Terr)\ **Post date:** [August 7, 2013, 5:54pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/ohio-holocaust-memorial/665507/138 "2013-08-07T17:54:49Z")
> [@Really\_Not\_All\_That\_Bright](#): > > I feel mentally enriched having learned that it’s called a Magan David in Hebrew, so thanks, **Terr**. Magen. As in “shield” in Hebrew. It may have been literally the shape of shields used by some Hebrews. > [@](#): > > Are you sure? I am somewhat dubious that the Nazis tried to exterminate, say, ethnic Jews who converted to Catholicism as much as ethnic Jews who practiced Judaism. The Nuremberg Laws didn’t refer to religious affiliation of the person when defining what “Jew” meant. If you were descended from Jews you were a Jew. Whether you converted to Catholicism didn’t enter into the definition. ---
**Author:** ![Malthus](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/85f322/32.png) [@Malthus](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Malthus)\ **Post date:** [August 7, 2013, 5:54pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/ohio-holocaust-memorial/665507/139 "2013-08-07T17:54:51Z")
> [@Czarcasm](#): > > But the tribal membership is the aftereffect-the newly converted is first joining the _religion_, right? An Ethiopian Jew is as much a member of the tribe as is any other Jew, but only because she/he is Jewish. Is there a way for an outsider to become a member of the Jewish tribe and adapt the Star of David symbol without first becoming a member of the Jewish faith? Can a gentile _become_ a non-religious Jew and thus use the symbol? Sure. They can join a Jewish congregation that happens to be non-theistic. The important thing is to become a member of a congregation - that is, to be formally accepted by a community of Jews. Most, but not all, congregations are theistic. Some are not. An atheist would want to join one of the latter. > **[Humanistic Judaism](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Humanistic_Judaism)** > > Humanistic Judaism (Hebrew: יהדות הומניסטית, romanized: Yahadut Humanistit) is a Jewish movement that offers a nontheistic alternative to contemporary branches of Judaism. It defines Judaism as the cultural and historical experience of the Jewish people rather than a religion, and encourages Jews who are humanistic and secular to celebrate their identity by participating in relevant holidays and rites of passage (such as weddings and bar/bat mitzvahs) with inspirational ceremonies that go beyond ... ---
**Author:** ![treis](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/bc79bd/32.png) [@treis](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/treis)\ **Post date:** [August 7, 2013, 5:55pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/ohio-holocaust-memorial/665507/140 "2013-08-07T17:55:16Z")
> [@Malthus](#): > > It osn’t a “demeaning lecture”. You evidently do not know this stuff, and it is important information for the argument. > > What you are doing, is making a classic argumentitive fallacy - an “argument from ignorance”. > > [Argument from ignorance - Wikipedia](http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Argument_from_ignorance) Because I disagree with you doesn’t make me ignorant. It doesn’t matter what the Star of David meant 80 years ago any more than the fact that gay meant happy then. Things change. > [@Malthus](#): > > Google-bombing isn’t evidence of anything, pretty well ever. It’s evidence of what the symbol means. What do you think? People see those logos and think that its a group of religions and the Jewish people as an ethnic group? Perhaps they wonder why there is no Irish flag. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/ohio-holocaust-memorial/665507.md?page=6) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/ohio-holocaust-memorial/665507.md?page=8)