# Ohio Issue 2 **URL:** \ **Category:** Politics & Elections\ **Created:** [November 1, 2011, 4:35pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/ohio-issue-2/601514 "2011-11-01T16:35:12Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 3
**Author:** ![Hyperelastic](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/h/a3d4f5/32.png) [@Hyperelastic](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Hyperelastic)\ **Post date:** [November 4, 2011, 8:26pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/ohio-issue-2/601514/41 "2011-11-04T20:26:53Z")
> [@Chronos](#): > > What world do you live in where paying less for a job means more people want to do it? > > As for “salary incentives to do a good job”, that means that you have to pay more. You think the unions _oppose_ that? More people would want to do it because a smaller class is an easier job. Unions are against incentives. They want the worst and best teachers to make the same money. Unions of course want more money for all teachers. That’s an incentive for non-teachers to become teachers, not an incentive for bad teachers to become good teachers. ---
**Author:** ![Hyperelastic](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/h/a3d4f5/32.png) [@Hyperelastic](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Hyperelastic)\ **Post date:** [November 4, 2011, 8:31pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/ohio-issue-2/601514/42 "2011-11-04T20:31:32Z")
> [@Steve\_MB](#): > > Ain’t nothin’ to be done for it – the Constitution says citizens have freedom of speech and assembly; the Supreme Court says giving money to politicians is a form of free speech. Ergo, you can’t get a group of assembled citizens “out of the way” or their money out of the process. Nobody is saying teachers can’t have a union, only that the union can’t “collectively bargain” with, i.e. shake down, the state. There is no Constitutional right to a closed shop. The law as it stands right now says state employees can’t collectively bargain, and there’s nothing unconstitutional about it. ---
**Author:** ![Hyperelastic](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/h/a3d4f5/32.png) [@Hyperelastic](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Hyperelastic)\ **Post date:** [November 4, 2011, 8:33pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/ohio-issue-2/601514/43 "2011-11-04T20:33:06Z")
> [@Fear\_Itself](#): > > By that logic, when I am hired to do a job, I should do the least amount of work I can get away with, and still get paid. No, you can work 100 hours a week if you want. But I’m only going to pay you the smallest amount I think you’ll accept in order to do the job. ---
**Author:** ![Hyperelastic](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/h/a3d4f5/32.png) [@Hyperelastic](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Hyperelastic)\ **Post date:** [November 4, 2011, 8:34pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/ohio-issue-2/601514/44 "2011-11-04T20:34:45Z")
> [@Elendil\_s\_Heir](#): > > I’ve helped out in my kids’ public school classes. I’ve worked with cops. I know firefighters. The great majority of public service employees IME are badly underpaid for the good work they do. I’ve seen nothing that proves that SB5 is going to save the state or its political subdivisions bucketloads o’ cash. It seems to me the bill was much more about bashing unions, which tend to be pro-Democratic, and settling political scores. I’ll be voting no. Again, there is nothing in SB5 that prevents the state from paying as much as it wants to any state employee. It _is_ about bashing public employee unions, which in fact deserve to be bashed for reasons already stated. ---
**Author:** ![Chronos](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/chronos/32/134_2.png) [@Chronos](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Chronos)\ **Post date:** [November 4, 2011, 8:40pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/ohio-issue-2/601514/45 "2011-11-04T20:40:40Z")
> [@](#): > > More people would want to do it because a smaller class is an easier job. So all we need to do to get more teachers is to get more teachers. Brilliant! ---
**Author:** ![Fear\_Itself](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/fear_itself/32/19637_2.png) [@Fear\_Itself](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Fear_Itself)\ **Post date:** [November 4, 2011, 8:53pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/ohio-issue-2/601514/46 "2011-11-04T20:53:55Z")
> [@Hyperelastic](#): > > No, you can work 100 hours a week if you want. But I’m only going to pay you the smallest amount I think you’ll accept in order to do the job. Or, I can sleep on the job, or come in drunk if I think I can get away with it. Same thing. ---
**Author:** ![Hyperelastic](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/h/a3d4f5/32.png) [@Hyperelastic](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Hyperelastic)\ **Post date:** [November 4, 2011, 8:55pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/ohio-issue-2/601514/47 "2011-11-04T20:55:16Z")
> [@Chronos](#): > > So all we need to do to get more teachers is to get more teachers. Brilliant! Let’s take it nice and slow. If you have to pay a teacher $80,000 a year to teach 35 kids, but that same teacher would take $68,600 to do the easier job of teaching 30 kids, you just reduced class sizes for free, except for the cost of the additional classroom space. The numbers are hypothetical, but you get the idea. Don’t you? ---
**Author:** ![Hyperelastic](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/h/a3d4f5/32.png) [@Hyperelastic](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Hyperelastic)\ **Post date:** [November 4, 2011, 8:58pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/ohio-issue-2/601514/48 "2011-11-04T20:58:02Z")
> [@Fear\_Itself](#): > > Or, I can sleep on the job, or come in drunk if I think I can get away with it. Same thing. If you can find someone dumb enough to let you, then go for it. Maybe you should apply for a state job. ---
**Author:** ![Hyperelastic](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/h/a3d4f5/32.png) [@Hyperelastic](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Hyperelastic)\ **Post date:** [November 4, 2011, 9:01pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/ohio-issue-2/601514/49 "2011-11-04T21:01:38Z")
I’m surprised at the “assault on the middle class” argument against SB5. Since we can’t get off the topic of teachers, you do realize that in Ohio about half of school expenses are paid by local property taxes, which are not progressive. You pay the same rate whether you’re living in a trailer in Noble County or a mansion in Powell. ---
**Author:** ![Steve\_MB](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/steve_mb/32/5339_2.png) [@Steve\_MB](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Steve_MB)\ **Post date:** [November 4, 2011, 9:57pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/ohio-issue-2/601514/50 "2011-11-04T21:57:42Z")
> [@Hyperelastic](#): > > only that the union can’t “collectively bargain” with, i.e. shake down, the state Since you seem to be unclear on the distinction between criminal conspiracies and voluntary contracts, I’m not sure how you expect to be able to handle the even more abstruse concepts discussed on this thread. ---
**Author:** ![MsWhatsit](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/eb8c5e/32.png) [@MsWhatsit](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/MsWhatsit)\ **Post date:** [November 4, 2011, 10:05pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/ohio-issue-2/601514/51 "2011-11-04T22:05:20Z")
> [@Steve\_MB](#): > > Ain’t nothin’ to be done for it – the Constitution says citizens have freedom of speech and assembly; the Supreme Court says giving money to politicians is a form of free speech. Ergo, you can’t get a group of assembled citizens “out of the way” or their money out of the process. Concur. IMO restricting collective bargaining is a restriction on free speech. ---
**Author:** ![Chronos](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/chronos/32/134_2.png) [@Chronos](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Chronos)\ **Post date:** [November 5, 2011, 1:47am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/ohio-issue-2/601514/52 "2011-11-05T01:47:04Z")
Well, more like a restriction on free assembly. But that’s covered by the same amendment, anyway. ---
**Author:** ![Dahnlor](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/dahnlor/32/533_2.png) [@Dahnlor](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Dahnlor)\ **Post date:** [November 5, 2011, 2:14am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/ohio-issue-2/601514/53 "2011-11-05T02:14:08Z")
> [@Hyperelastic](#): > > What about the middle class taxpayers who are funding kindergarten teachers to the tune of [$80,000](http://www.buckeyeinstitute.org/teacher-salary) for 180 days’ work, plus a $45,000 pension? Who are the haves and have-nots in this exchange? You see, just picking out that the top end of the payscale is a great way to distort the facts. Especially since that link gives no information about the “teachers” listed other than their salary and hours/days worked. Every individual school I looked at had exactly one “teacher” paid $175,000. By the looks of it, they’re counting administrators and other non-teaching jobs. [Here](http://swz.salary.com/SalaryWizard/Public-School-Teacher-Salary-Details-Cleveland-OH.aspx) is a better site to represent the facts objectively. This site only does a city at a time but tells you what actual public school teachers are paid. Seems most of the cities I checked had a median salary of right around $50,000. ---
**Author:** ![Shodan](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/9f8e36/32.png) [@Shodan](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Shodan)\ **Post date:** [November 5, 2011, 2:55am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/ohio-issue-2/601514/54 "2011-11-05T02:55:22Z")
> [@Steve\_MB](#): > > Since you seem to be unclear on the distinction between criminal conspiracies and voluntary contracts, I’m not sure how you expect to be able to handle the even more abstruse concepts discussed on this thread. Well, maybe they are difficult for you, but I don’t see that they would be for the rest of us. The unions want more money. That’s hardly a shock. The state of Ohio doesn’t want to spend more than they have to. That’s hardly a shock either. Unions always want more. They can’t always have it, particularly with the economy in the state it’s in. I’m sorry you’re having trouble with abstruse concepts like that. Maybe your teachers are to blame. Regards, Shodan ---
**Author:** ![Chronos](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/chronos/32/134_2.png) [@Chronos](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Chronos)\ **Post date:** [November 5, 2011, 4:48am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/ohio-issue-2/601514/55 "2011-11-05T04:48:49Z")
Oh, that’s straightforward enough for most of us, **Shodan**. Except that **Hyperelastic** here is assuring us that it’s _not_ just all about the state not wanting to pay the teachers as much as the unions want. ---
**Author:** ![BlueOhio](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/439d5e/32.png) [@BlueOhio](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/BlueOhio)\ **Post date:** [November 5, 2011, 11:30am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/ohio-issue-2/601514/56 "2011-11-05T11:30:15Z")
I am voting No, and by the looks of it most voters will Tuesday. Kasich doesn’t seem very interested in actually governing, but rather is destroying systems to see what happens. I’d rather he take his Godzilla game someplace else. ---
**Author:** ![BobLibDem](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/boblibdem/32/3149_2.png) [@BobLibDem](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/BobLibDem)\ **Post date:** [November 5, 2011, 12:31pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/ohio-issue-2/601514/57 "2011-11-05T12:31:32Z")
> [@Hyperelastic](#): > > SB5 covers all state employees, most of whom aren’t teachers. > > Nobody’s “raging” against anything, and the only person who used the word egregious was you. > > There is nothing in SB5 that prevents the state from spending as much money as it wants/needs on teachers. The only thing it does is get the union out of the way. We cannot afford an unaccountable process in which the politicians pay the teachers, the teachers pay the union, and the union pays the politicians. We also do not need a union whose objectives are to block all efforts to reward excellence and to defend incompetent or harmful teachers at the expense of students and taxpayers. I don’t recall anyone dying and making you king. It isn’t your place to decide if the teachers need a union. If they want to join one, it’s none of your fucking business. If they want to pay dues, it’s none of your fucking business. If the union wants to donate to politicians, it’s none of your fucking business. The question of the moment is do we want to destroy what has created the middle class? Do we want state governments to sabotage state revenue streams by cutting taxes for the fat cats and thus create a budget “crisis” to be balanced on the backs of the working class? This is going down big time. By the actions of new Republican governors in Wisconsin, Michigan, and Ohio, Obama can count on the electoral votes in these three states. Thanks a lot, rednecks! ---
**Author:** ![Shodan](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/9f8e36/32.png) [@Shodan](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Shodan)\ **Post date:** [November 5, 2011, 12:41pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/ohio-issue-2/601514/58 "2011-11-05T12:41:14Z")
> [@BobLibDem](#): > > I don’t recall anyone dying and making you king. It isn’t your place to decide if the teachers need a union. If they want to join one, it’s none of your fucking business. If they want to pay dues, it’s none of your fucking business. If the union wants to donate to politicians, it’s none of your fucking business. And if Ohio decides to pass this law, that’s none of _your_ fucking business. Since you aren’t king either. Regards, Shodan ---
**Author:** ![MsWhatsit](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/eb8c5e/32.png) [@MsWhatsit](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/MsWhatsit)\ **Post date:** [November 5, 2011, 1:17pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/ohio-issue-2/601514/59 "2011-11-05T13:17:41Z")
Can it be my fucking business, since I live here? Exactly whose fucking business is being restricted here? Just non-residents, or people we don’t like, or what is the criteria? ---
**Author:** ![BobLibDem](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/boblibdem/32/3149_2.png) [@BobLibDem](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/BobLibDem)\ **Post date:** [November 5, 2011, 2:42pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/ohio-issue-2/601514/60 "2011-11-05T14:42:09Z")
> [@MsWhatsit](#): > > Can it be my fucking business, since I live here? Exactly whose fucking business is being restricted here? Just non-residents, or people we don’t like, or what is the criteria? Since you live in Ohio, you have my deepest sympathy. If you want to vote to destroy the middle class, that’s your business. It wouldn’t make it right, but you could do that. Teachers should be free to have a closed shop if they want to and pay dues if they want to and if the union wants to be active political that is their right. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/ohio-issue-2/601514.md?page=2) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/ohio-issue-2/601514.md?page=4)