# Ohio Issue 2 **URL:** \ **Category:** Politics & Elections\ **Created:** [November 1, 2011, 4:35pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/ohio-issue-2/601514 "2011-11-01T16:35:12Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 7
**Author:** ![Damuri\_Ajashi](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/898d66/32.png) [@Damuri\_Ajashi](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Damuri_Ajashi)\ **Post date:** [November 9, 2011, 2:45pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/ohio-issue-2/601514/121 "2011-11-09T14:45:11Z")
> [@Omg\_a\_Black\_Conservative](#): > > You know very well that’s not what’s meant. > > Restoring collective bargaining rights does nothing to help the average worker, who does not belong to a union. In fact, the only thing it does for the average worker is cause him or her to pay more in taxes in order to ensure that the union worker enjoys more rights and protections than they do, quite possibly at the expense of the non-union worker. That makes no sense to me. There is a spill over effect from unions. Raises in pay due to union negotiations raise the general pay level for all workers. Increases in benefits for uinion members increases benefit levels for all workers. America’s middle class was built on unions. As unions went away so did our middle class. ---
**Author:** ![Happy\_Lendervedder](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/happy_lendervedder/32/8488_2.png) [@Happy\_Lendervedder](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Happy_Lendervedder)\ **Post date:** [November 9, 2011, 2:51pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/ohio-issue-2/601514/122 "2011-11-09T14:51:24Z")
> [@Hyperelastic](#): > > It’s not just proverbial. Unions have a history of beating and killing people who have opposed them. That’s why they’ve always been cozy with the mob. If I was as cozy with the mob as conservatives like to say, my job would be much easier. This is laughable. Are there instances of unions having connections to organized crime? Yes. Are there instances of business having connections to organized crime? Yes. Are there instances of politicians having connections to organized crime? Yes. Corruption isn’t exclusive to unions, nor is it common these days. Most unions have no connection to “the mob.” Unions are amongst the most regulated organizations in the country. Try again. > [@](#): > > Those conditions went away because of capitalism and economic growth. All unions can do is concentrate available benefits on their members to the exclusion of others. Bullshit. Most everything unions negotiated (five-day work week, eight-hour work day, overtime, higher pay, safe work environment, employer-paid benefits) have benefitted the general public. ---
**Author:** ![Damuri\_Ajashi](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/898d66/32.png) [@Damuri\_Ajashi](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Damuri_Ajashi)\ **Post date:** [November 9, 2011, 2:51pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/ohio-issue-2/601514/123 "2011-11-09T14:51:24Z")
> [@Omg\_a\_Black\_Conservative](#): > > I don’t see how removing unions ability to bargain is screwing them over. For the most part, I’d say that it’s the unions screwing over everyone else. They tend to collect dues from individuals regardless of whether or not that individual wants to join said union (correct me if I’m wrong here), You are talking about a closed shop where you MUST join the union to work there. I don’t think this is true of government unions, I know its not true of federal unions. > [@](#): > > they negotiate higher wages for themselves and tend to negotiate perks that most of your average workers could only dream of. All the while, Average Joe pays for it. Every state is different but the average benefit plan for federal employees is lower than that of their private sector counterparts that get that benefit. So federal heathcare benefits are better than what people get on average but if you remove the folks who don’t get any health care benefits at all, federal health care benefits are behind the curve. > [@](#): > > But as I said, I don’t live in Ohio, so my opinion is in the grand scheme of things irrelevant. I just think it’s fascinating (sad?) to see people bend over and let unions actively screw them. Most people who vote republican do that they time they vote. Voting to support teachers and policemen is hardly screwing themselves over, some people call that a desire for a competent government workforce. ---
**Author:** ![Damuri\_Ajashi](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/898d66/32.png) [@Damuri\_Ajashi](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Damuri_Ajashi)\ **Post date:** [November 9, 2011, 2:53pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/ohio-issue-2/601514/124 "2011-11-09T14:53:34Z")
> [@Omg\_a\_Black\_Conservative](#): > > I’m not so sure what being human has to do with engaging in what basically boils down to extortion. Unions are extortion? WTF?!?! ---
**Author:** ![Happy\_Lendervedder](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/happy_lendervedder/32/8488_2.png) [@Happy\_Lendervedder](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Happy_Lendervedder)\ **Post date:** [November 9, 2011, 3:00pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/ohio-issue-2/601514/125 "2011-11-09T15:00:30Z")
> [@Damuri\_Ajashi](#): > > Most people who vote republican do that they time they vote. Voting to support teachers and policemen is hardly screwing themselves over, some people call that a desire for a competent government workforce. Let me add to this. The teachers and firemen are the sexy public workers and were the face of this “No on SB5” campaign. But if you turn on your tap and clean water comes out, thank a public worker. If you flush the toilet and the turd goes away, thank a public worker. If your street lights are working, thank a public worker. If your neighborhood isn’t being overrun by inmates from the nearest prison, thank a public worker. If your kids’ school isn’t a filthy pig sty, thank a public worker. If your local park is mowed and isn’t filled with vermin and trash, thank a public worker. Reducing pay and staffing levels for all public workers-- not just cops, firefighters and teachers-- would affect our communities. Racing to having the cheapest and smallest workforce will not benefit us in any way. ---
**Author:** ![Steve\_MB](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/steve_mb/32/5339_2.png) [@Steve\_MB](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Steve_MB)\ **Post date:** [November 9, 2011, 3:02pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/ohio-issue-2/601514/126 "2011-11-09T15:02:34Z")
> [@Hyperelastic](#): > > All unions can do is concentrate available benefits on their members to the exclusion of others. That’s how the invisible hand works – a population of greedy people each out for himself produces the best outcome in the long run, because leaving all the control in the hands of a class of capitalists or communists or aristocrats or technocrats or whatever has been proven not to work (generally because then only one group is able to act on its desire to grab all the marbles, without effective counterbalance by others). Really, your ignorance of basic Wealth of Nations 101 makes one wonder if you have a reason other than masochism to keep repeating these inane arguments. ---
**Author:** ![Steve\_MB](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/steve_mb/32/5339_2.png) [@Steve\_MB](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Steve_MB)\ **Post date:** [November 9, 2011, 3:04pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/ohio-issue-2/601514/127 "2011-11-09T15:04:41Z")
> [@Damuri\_Ajashi](#): > > Every state is different but the average benefit plan for federal employees is lower than that of their private sector counterparts that get that benefit. So federal healthcare benefits are better than what people get on average but if you remove the folks who don’t get any health care benefits at all, federal health care benefits are behind the curve. When one performs an apples-to-apples comparison of jobs requiring similar skill sets and education, the government is even further behind the curve. ---
**Author:** ![Da\_Mikster](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/bb73d2/32.png) [@Da\_Mikster](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Da_Mikster)\ **Post date:** [November 9, 2011, 5:20pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/ohio-issue-2/601514/128 "2011-11-09T17:20:02Z")
> [@Hyperelastic](#): > > It’s not just proverbial. Unions have a history of beating and killing people who have opposed them. That’s why they’ve always been cozy with the mob. The unions have a history…? Oh, God! Ever hear of strikebreakers or the **Pinkertons**? Jay Gould said "I can hire one-half of the working class to kill the other half. ---
**Author:** ![Voyager](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/voyager/32/133_2.png) [@Voyager](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Voyager)\ **Post date:** [November 9, 2011, 6:26pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/ohio-issue-2/601514/129 "2011-11-09T18:26:46Z")
> [@Hyperelastic](#): > > Those conditions went away because of capitalism and economic growth. All unions can do is concentrate available benefits on their members to the exclusion of others. They don’t produce anything; in fact, they reduce productivity. > > But if the past sins of a minority may be used to justify present policy, unions should be outright illegal, because of their history of violence and organized crime. Oh, the United States in the late 19th century was socialist? It was plenty capitalist. These problems, and other ones like child labor, were solved by a combination of union power and government regulations. Please explain to me why a capitalist would do something to reduce his profits. Businessmen focus on their companies and profits to the exclusion of others also. As mentioned, that is how capitalism works. Why do you think it is evil for workers to freely band together to negotiate their conditions? Remember if they go on strike they don’t get paid. Maybe this is no problem for the fatcats, but it is for most workers. Sure some unions have and had mob ties, and I’m fine with the government doing something about it. But most don’t. It is not like old style capitalists have clean hands either. ---
**Author:** ![Hyperelastic](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/h/a3d4f5/32.png) [@Hyperelastic](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Hyperelastic)\ **Post date:** [November 9, 2011, 10:14pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/ohio-issue-2/601514/130 "2011-11-09T22:14:31Z")
> [@Steve\_MB](#): > > That’s how the invisible hand works – a population of greedy people each out for himself produces the best outcome in the long run, because leaving all the control in the hands of a class of capitalists or communists or aristocrats or technocrats or whatever has been proven not to work (generally because then only one group is able to act on its desire to grab all the marbles, without effective counterbalance by others). > > Really, your ignorance of basic Wealth of Nations 101 makes one wonder if you have a reason other than masochism to keep repeating these inane arguments. You must have read a different edition than I did. The benefit of greed is that it makes people produce things. As Smith famously said, “It is not from the benevolence of the butcher, the brewer or the baker, that we expect our dinner, but from their regard to their own interest.” The union isn’t making dinner for anyone. It’s just grabbing the roast beef for itself and leaving the mashed turnips for everyone else. The theory that history can be explained by competition between classes comes from a very different book indeed. ---
**Author:** ![Hyperelastic](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/h/a3d4f5/32.png) [@Hyperelastic](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Hyperelastic)\ **Post date:** [November 9, 2011, 10:16pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/ohio-issue-2/601514/131 "2011-11-09T22:16:52Z")
> [@Voyager](#): > > Oh, the United States in the late 19th century was socialist? It was plenty capitalist. These problems, and other ones like child labor, were solved by a combination of union power and government regulations. Please explain to me why a capitalist would do something to reduce his profits. > Businessmen focus on their companies and profits to the exclusion of others also. It is precisely the desire for profits that makes a (successful) company treat its employees well. ---
**Author:** ![Dahnlor](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/dahnlor/32/533_2.png) [@Dahnlor](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Dahnlor)\ **Post date:** [November 9, 2011, 10:32pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/ohio-issue-2/601514/132 "2011-11-09T22:32:51Z")
> [@Hyperelastic](#): > > It is precisely the desire for profits that makes a (successful) company treat its employees well. So, things like child labor, hazardous working conditions and minimal pay were solved by the companies themselves? Organized labor and government regulation had nothing to do with it? Please provide cites to support your ridiculous assertion. Or are you saying that child labor, 16-hour work days and the occasional dead worker are examples of treating employees well? ---
**Author:** ![MsWhatsit](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/eb8c5e/32.png) [@MsWhatsit](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/MsWhatsit)\ **Post date:** [November 9, 2011, 10:41pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/ohio-issue-2/601514/133 "2011-11-09T22:41:29Z")
> [@Hyperelastic](#): > > It is precisely the desire for profits that makes a (successful) company treat its employees well. Heheh. Oh, dear. ---
**Author:** ![Chronos](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/chronos/32/134_2.png) [@Chronos](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Chronos)\ **Post date:** [November 10, 2011, 1:21am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/ohio-issue-2/601514/134 "2011-11-10T01:21:42Z")
> [@](#): > > It is precisely the desire for profits that makes a (successful) company treat its employees well. Right, because if they don’t treat their employees well, they’ll go on strike, and cut the company’s profits to zero. ---
**Author:** ![CaptMurdock](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/captmurdock/32/11736_2.png) [@CaptMurdock](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/CaptMurdock)\ **Post date:** [November 10, 2011, 2:12am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/ohio-issue-2/601514/135 "2011-11-10T02:12:27Z")
> [@Hyperelastic](#): > > It is precisely the desire for profits that makes a (successful) company treat its employees well. Wow. I remember the first time I took too much NyQuil. 😉 ---
**Author:** ![Damuri\_Ajashi](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/898d66/32.png) [@Damuri\_Ajashi](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Damuri_Ajashi)\ **Post date:** [November 10, 2011, 3:36am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/ohio-issue-2/601514/136 "2011-11-10T03:36:39Z")
> [@Hyperelastic](#): > > Are you seriously claiming that higher pay makes a job less desirable? No I think he is saying the high pension will make them retire. > [@Hyperelastic](#): > > Of course they would. Isn’t that the whole point of being in a union? It’s good for them and bad for us. Everything is not a zero sum game. > [@Hyperelastic](#): > > I said five two so people wouldn’t think I mistyped $25,000, which is the kind of pension people in the real world get. Why is it that when CEOs negotiate a 10 million dollar pay package… well thats what the market will bear and we must respect that. We cannot put any restraints on the CEO’s ability to negotiate his pay. When a bunch of teachers get together and say lets negotiate as a group because each of us individually is totally expendable but as a group we become much more important to our employer, THEN the pay that they negotiate is somehow extortion? I know that some jurisdictions have wierd labor laws but generally speaking, you don’t have to sign a contract you don’t want to sign. ---
**Author:** ![Damuri\_Ajashi](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/898d66/32.png) [@Damuri\_Ajashi](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Damuri_Ajashi)\ **Post date:** [November 10, 2011, 3:42am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/ohio-issue-2/601514/137 "2011-11-10T03:42:08Z")
> [@Hyperelastic](#): > > SB5 covers all state employees, most of whom aren’t teachers. > > Nobody’s “raging” against anything, and the only person who used the word egregious was you. > > There is nothing in SB5 that prevents the state from spending as much money as it wants/needs on teachers. The only thing it does is get the union out of the way. We cannot afford an unaccountable process in which the politicians pay the teachers, the teachers pay the union, and the union pays the politicians. We also do not need a union whose objectives are to block all efforts to reward excellence and to defend incompetent or harmful teachers at the expense of students and taxpayers. SB5 is egregious. If the Republicans hadn’t been so greedy, it probably wouldn’t be a referendum on the Republican party in Ohio. ---
**Author:** ![Damuri\_Ajashi](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/898d66/32.png) [@Damuri\_Ajashi](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Damuri_Ajashi)\ **Post date:** [November 10, 2011, 3:45am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/ohio-issue-2/601514/138 "2011-11-10T03:45:33Z")
> [@Hyperelastic](#): > > I’m surprised at the “assault on the middle class” argument against SB5. Since we can’t get off the topic of teachers, you do realize that in Ohio about half of school expenses are paid by local property taxes, which are not progressive. You pay the same rate whether you’re living in a trailer in Noble County or a mansion in Powell. And where does the other half come from? ---
**Author:** ![Damuri\_Ajashi](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/898d66/32.png) [@Damuri\_Ajashi](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Damuri_Ajashi)\ **Post date:** [November 10, 2011, 3:58am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/ohio-issue-2/601514/139 "2011-11-10T03:58:12Z")
> [@Fear\_Itself](#): > > How then should teachers address pocketbook issues, if not through a union or professional association? Well apparently they can make all the other school systems compete for their labor. ---
**Author:** ![Damuri\_Ajashi](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/898d66/32.png) [@Damuri\_Ajashi](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Damuri_Ajashi)\ **Post date:** [November 10, 2011, 4:01am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/ohio-issue-2/601514/140 "2011-11-10T04:01:38Z")
> [@Hyperelastic](#): > > The only reason employers offer health insurance is that it was one of the few incentives they could give during WW II when wage controls were in place. When unions went through their truly militant phase in the 1890s-1930s, health insurance was hardly even on the table. It was all about wages and work rules. > > Calling the wages resulting from a free labor market “slave wages” is rich, considering we have a history of actual slavery in this country. If you think your wages are too low, find another job. Unless employers are conspiring to hold down wages (and this does happen, through blacklists, no-compete contracts, etc.) there is no alternative for them but to pay a little more than the other guy if they want you. You do realize that the state as the largest employer of teachers in the state exercises a virtual monopsony on the consumption of teaching labor. The free market pricing mechanism breaks down with monopsonies and monopolies. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/ohio-issue-2/601514.md?page=6) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/ohio-issue-2/601514.md?page=8)