# Ohio puts 200-pound third-grader in foster care **URL:** \ **Category:** Great Debates\ **Created:** [November 28, 2011, 3:02am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/ohio-puts-200-pound-third-grader-in-foster-care/604308 "2011-11-28T03:02:54Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 8
**Author:** ![constanze](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/f9ae1b/32.png) [@constanze](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/constanze)\ **Post date:** [November 30, 2011, 8:51pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/ohio-puts-200-pound-third-grader-in-foster-care/604308/141 "2011-11-30T20:51:58Z")
> [@Malthus](#): > > Are you seriously claiming that beating, scalding with hot irons, and starvation are equivalent to allowing a child to become obese? šŸ˜• I said that itā€™s equivalent to claiming that because the parents say they do it out of ā€œloveā€ itā€™s okay and the right thing. Itā€™s not about what the parents are saying, it whatā€™s objective evidence shows they are doing - and what they are doing (or failing to do) is abuse. ---
**Author:** ![Troppus](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/a587f6/32.png) [@Troppus](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Troppus)\ **Post date:** [November 30, 2011, 8:52pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/ohio-puts-200-pound-third-grader-in-foster-care/604308/142 "2011-11-30T20:52:37Z")
> [@Malthus](#): > > You may ā€œtrust the professionalsā€, but what about the folks who actually, you know, drafted the relevant laws, which tend to require harm of an immediate nature before taking this sort of action? Immediate harm was proven at the hospital visit one year ago. The kid is \*too fat to breathe. \* ---
**Author:** ![Troppus](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/a587f6/32.png) [@Troppus](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Troppus)\ **Post date:** [November 30, 2011, 9:30pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/ohio-puts-200-pound-third-grader-in-foster-care/604308/143 "2011-11-30T21:30:22Z")
Iā€™m astounded that anyone would advocate leaving this kid in the home where the neglect occurred, and in the home where an educated woman failed to keep her child safe and healthy, and failed to prevent social services from placing her child into foster care. Iā€™m astounded that anyone decrying CPSā€™ decision wouldnā€™t feel the need to reach out once this 8 year old kid a) Grew too fat to play with the other kids b) Grew too fat to complete the required physical fitness tests c) Risked suffering a breathing/heart emergency or stroke during physical activity d) Began audibly wheezing while sitting at his desk e) Was noticeably winded after struggling up a flight of steps f) Fell asleep his desk due to apnea interrupted sleep g) Grew too fat to fit in an elementary sized desk h) Was mercilessly teased, shunned, or even simply ignored by healthier kids How bad would it have to be before you called CPS, the school nurse, or at the very minimum: engaged the mother in a conversation in an attempt to determine if she was doing anything at all to keep this kid alive? Heā€™s 8. He doesnā€™t have a job or drive, and does not have the ability to acquire the calories he is consuming without assistance from an adult. Heā€™s 8. He lacks the emotional development necessary to recognize an addiction to food. Heā€™s 8, and likely canā€™t even reach the highest shelves in the freezer or cabinets. Heā€™s 8, and too fat to walk to a fast food restaurant and beg for food. Heā€™s 8, too young to prepare a meal. Heā€™s 8, too young to grasp the consequences of a fatty liver, compromised pulmonary function, or the crippling social stigma of morbid obesity. Who in the world would observe this kid trying to interact with his environment, then shrug and say ā€œeh, heā€™ll be alrightā€ and walk away. There is an active thread in another forum full of outraged Dopers who suspect (no proof!) a child is being sexually abused. But there are Dopers here outraged that this child who is _obviously_ suffering illness due to neglect, and who has been deemed by medical, social work, and judicial professionals to be living in an unsafe environment after one year of supervised intervention has been removed from a harmful environment. I get that those who disagree will continue to disagree, and because of this argument will likely cling tighter to their belief that CPS crossed a line. But why the difference in reaction to neglect? This neglect is evident and preventable, and resources abound for an educated woman to seek help with reversing the damage she has caused. ---
**Author:** ![Malthus](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/85f322/32.png) [@Malthus](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Malthus)\ **Post date:** [November 30, 2011, 9:39pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/ohio-puts-200-pound-third-grader-in-foster-care/604308/144 "2011-11-30T21:39:36Z")
> [@constanze](#): > > I said that itā€™s equivalent to claiming that because the parents say they do it out of ā€œloveā€ itā€™s okay and the right thing. > > Itā€™s not about what the parents are saying, it whatā€™s objective evidence shows they are doing - and what they are doing (or failing to do) is abuse. Well, except, of course, that no one here is ā€œā€¦ claiming that because the parents say they do it out of ā€œloveā€ itā€™s okay and the right thingā€. Or even implying it. If anyone is, please direct me to their post. ---
**Author:** ![Malthus](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/85f322/32.png) [@Malthus](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Malthus)\ **Post date:** [November 30, 2011, 9:41pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/ohio-puts-200-pound-third-grader-in-foster-care/604308/145 "2011-11-30T21:41:19Z")
> [@Troppus](#): > > Immediate harm was proven at the hospital visit one year ago. The kid is \*too fat to breathe. \* You are once again overstating the case. ---
**Author:** ![OpalCat](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/o/8edcca/32.png) [@OpalCat](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/OpalCat)\ **Post date:** [November 30, 2011, 9:43pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/ohio-puts-200-pound-third-grader-in-foster-care/604308/146 "2011-11-30T21:43:46Z")
**Troppus** , I donā€™t know if you care, but I agree with you. I consider this to be clear abuse as well, and hope they can eventually (sooner rather than later, one would hope) find a foster family who can get this kid on the right path. ---
**Author:** ![ENugent](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/4af34b/32.png) [@ENugent](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/ENugent)\ **Post date:** [November 30, 2011, 9:44pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/ohio-puts-200-pound-third-grader-in-foster-care/604308/147 "2011-11-30T21:44:55Z")
> [@Malthus](#): > > Taliking about issues such as anorexia is a pure red herring. There is no eqivalent medical condition that _forces_ a child to _over_-eat, and if there was, it could be controlled by limiting access to food. Once again, the two are not equivalent. [Actually, there is](http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmedhealth/PMH0002572/), and controlling it by limiting access to food can be pretty challenging in some cases. Not necessarily applicable to this case (in fact, probably not), but not something to totally neglect, either. ---
**Author:** ![Troppus](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/a587f6/32.png) [@Troppus](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Troppus)\ **Post date:** [November 30, 2011, 9:50pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/ohio-puts-200-pound-third-grader-in-foster-care/604308/148 "2011-11-30T21:50:57Z")
> [@Malthus](#): > > You are once again overstating the case. Can this child breathe unassisted, without the aid of a machine, while sleeping? Can his involutary muscles do the job of keeping him alive during an extended period of inactivity without electric-powered intervention? ---
**Author:** ![Malthus](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/85f322/32.png) [@Malthus](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Malthus)\ **Post date:** [November 30, 2011, 9:52pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/ohio-puts-200-pound-third-grader-in-foster-care/604308/149 "2011-11-30T21:52:04Z")
> [@ENugent](#): > > [Actually, there is](http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmedhealth/PMH0002572/), and controlling it by limiting access to food can be pretty challenging in some cases. Not necessarily applicable to this case (in fact, probably not), but not something to totally neglect, either. Well, that is interesting, and something I did not know. But again, I think the whole topic of actual disease states that result in massive weight gain or loss is basically irrelevant here. ---
**Author:** ![Troppus](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/a587f6/32.png) [@Troppus](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Troppus)\ **Post date:** [November 30, 2011, 9:52pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/ohio-puts-200-pound-third-grader-in-foster-care/604308/150 "2011-11-30T21:52:39Z")
> [@OpalCat](#): > > **Troppus** , I donā€™t know if you care, but I agree with you. I consider this to be clear abuse as well, and hope they can eventually (sooner rather than later, one would hope) find a foster family who can get this kid on the right path. **Opal** , there was a fairly recent thread that asked whether or not Dopers overweight as children held their parents responsible? Was that yours, and if not, can you help me find it? ---
**Author:** ![Malthus](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/85f322/32.png) [@Malthus](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Malthus)\ **Post date:** [November 30, 2011, 9:57pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/ohio-puts-200-pound-third-grader-in-foster-care/604308/151 "2011-11-30T21:57:31Z")
> [@Troppus](#): > > Can this child breathe unassisted, without the aid of a machine, while sleeping? Can his involutary muscles do the job of keeping him alive during an extended period of inactivity without electric-powered intervention? Sleep apnea can be very serious, but lots of people have it and survive without medical intervention. > [@](#): > > Symptoms may be present for years (or even decades) without identification, during which time the sufferer may become conditioned to the daytime sleepiness and fatigue associated with significant levels of sleep disturbance. > **[Sleep apnea](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sleep_apnea)** > > Sleep apnea (sleep apnoea or sleep apnœa in British English) is a sleep-related breathing disorder in which repetitive pauses in breathing, periods of shallow breathing, or collapse of the upper airway during sleep results in poor ventilation and sleep disruption. Each pause in breathing can last for a few seconds to a few minutes and often occurs many times a night. A choking or snorting sound may occur as breathing resumes. Common symptoms include daytime sleepiness, snoring, and Sleep apne... The main signs and symptoms are fatigue and lack of alertness, not dropping dead. > [@](#): > > Sleep apnea affects not only adults but some children as well [4]. As stated by El-Ad, ā€œpatients complain about excessive daytime sleepiness (EDS) and impaired alertness.ā€ [5] In other words, common effects of sleep apnea include daytime fatigue, a slower reaction time, and vision problems [6]. Moreover, patients are examined using ā€œstandard test batteriesā€ in order to further identify parts of the brain that are affected by sleep apnea [7]. Tests have shown that certain parts of the brain cause different effects. The ā€œexecutive functioningā€ part of the brain affects the way the patient plans and initiates tasks [8]. Second, the part of the brain that deals with attention causes difficulty in paying attention, working effectively and processing information when in a waking state [9]. Thirdly, the part of the brain that uses memory and learning is also affected [10]. Due to the disruption in daytime cognitive state, behavioral effects are also present [11]. This includes moodiness, belligerence, as well as a decrease in attentiveness and drive [12]. These effects become very difficult to deal with, thus the development of depression may transpire [13]. Finally, because there are many factors that could lead to some of the effects previously listed, some patients are not aware that they suffer from sleep apnea and are either misdiagnosed, or just ignore the symptoms altogether ---
**Author:** ![Troppus](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/a587f6/32.png) [@Troppus](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Troppus)\ **Post date:** [November 30, 2011, 10:06pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/ohio-puts-200-pound-third-grader-in-foster-care/604308/152 "2011-11-30T22:06:05Z")
> [@Malthus](#): > > Well, that is interesting, and something I did not know. But again, I think the whole topic of actual disease states that result in massive weight gain or loss is basically irrelevant here. Then you arenā€™t reading and comprehending the posts in this thread. Prader-Willi was already mentioned 5 times, and \*\*SaintCad \*\*generously described the challenges of managing food addiction in a child. And **SaintCad** did not stop at describing the treatment plan, but also provided a trustworthy counter from the POV of the parent of an obese child. ---
**Author:** ![OpalCat](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/o/8edcca/32.png) [@OpalCat](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/OpalCat)\ **Post date:** [November 30, 2011, 10:06pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/ohio-puts-200-pound-third-grader-in-foster-care/604308/153 "2011-11-30T22:06:54Z")
> [@Troppus](#): > > **Opal** , there was a fairly recent thread that asked whether or not Dopers overweight as children held their parents responsible? Was that yours, and if not, can you help me find it? It wasnā€™t mine. FWIW I became overweight after the birth of my son, and was so for 7 or 8 years. For that I donā€™t blame my upbringing. Had I been raised obese, I may well blame my mom for that. ---
**Author:** ![Malthus](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/85f322/32.png) [@Malthus](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Malthus)\ **Post date:** [November 30, 2011, 10:17pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/ohio-puts-200-pound-third-grader-in-foster-care/604308/154 "2011-11-30T22:17:50Z")
> [@Troppus](#): > > Then you arenā€™t reading and comprehending the posts in this thread. Prader-Willi was already mentioned 5 times, and \*\*SaintCad \*\*generously described the challenges of managing food addiction in a child. And **SaintCad** did not stop at describing the treatment plan, but also provided a trustworthy counter from the POV of the parent of an obese child. Huh? Whereā€™s the evidence that the kid under discussion has Prader-Willi? ---
**Author:** ![Troppus](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/a587f6/32.png) [@Troppus](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Troppus)\ **Post date:** [November 30, 2011, 10:17pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/ohio-puts-200-pound-third-grader-in-foster-care/604308/155 "2011-11-30T22:17:55Z")
> [@OpalCat](#): > > It wasnā€™t mine. FWIW I became overweight after the birth of my son, and was so for 7 or 8 years. For that I donā€™t blame my upbringing. Had I been raised obese, I may well blame my mom for that. Ah, sorry, canā€™t remember how long ago or who started it. Thanks for responding. ---
**Author:** ![Troppus](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/a587f6/32.png) [@Troppus](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Troppus)\ **Post date:** [November 30, 2011, 10:21pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/ohio-puts-200-pound-third-grader-in-foster-care/604308/156 "2011-11-30T22:21:51Z")
> [@Malthus](#): > > Sleep apnea can be very serious, but lots of people have it and survive without medical intervention. > > [Sleep apnea - Wikipedia](http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sleep_apnea) > > The main signs and symptoms are fatigue and lack of alertness, not dropping dead. Would you wish this illness upon an eight year old kid? This preventable illness which prevents the child from uninterrupted sleep and results in fatigue and a lack of alertness? Would you wish this preventable illness on an eight year old kid who may or may not be dependent on electricity in order to rest? Do you suppose that his quality of life is negatively affected by the presence of this breathing obstruction? Would you prevent this _preventable_ illness in order to for your kidā€™s quality of life to roughly equal that of his peers? ---
**Author:** ![Troppus](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/a587f6/32.png) [@Troppus](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Troppus)\ **Post date:** [November 30, 2011, 10:25pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/ohio-puts-200-pound-third-grader-in-foster-care/604308/157 "2011-11-30T22:25:47Z")
> [@Malthus](#): > > Huh? Whereā€™s the evidence that the kid under discussion has Prader-Willi? The evidence is that you havenā€™t read the thread, or you would have already heard of Prader-Willi. ---
**Author:** ![Malthus](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/85f322/32.png) [@Malthus](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Malthus)\ **Post date:** [November 30, 2011, 10:29pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/ohio-puts-200-pound-third-grader-in-foster-care/604308/158 "2011-11-30T22:29:51Z")
> [@Troppus](#): > > Would you wish this illness upon an eight year old kid? This preventable illness which prevents the child from uninterrupted sleep and results in fatigue and a lack of alertness? Would you wish this preventable illness on an eight year old kid who may or may not be dependent on electricity in order to rest? Do you suppose that his quality of life is negatively affected by the presence of this breathing obstruction? > > Would you prevent this _preventable_ illness in order to for your kidā€™s quality of life to roughly equal that of his peers? Look, you are constantly doing this and it makes any sort of worthwhile debate difficult. (1) You make an absurdly exaggerated claim: > [@](#): > > Can this child breathe unassisted, without the aid of a machine, while sleeping? Can his involutary muscles do the job of keeping him alive during an extended period of inactivity without electric-powered intervention? (2) When called on it and countered with facts (in this case, that sleep apnea, while serious, is hardly the same thing as being unable to breathe without assistance) you shift to a mass of insulting rhetorical questions implying that puncturing your exaggeration is equivalent to _not caring_: > [@](#): > > Would you wish this illness upon an eight year old kid? The answer, of course, is ā€œnoā€. I would not wish it on anyone. That is not the same thing as accepting overwrought exaggerations of its severity at face value. ---
**Author:** ![Malthus](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/85f322/32.png) [@Malthus](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Malthus)\ **Post date:** [November 30, 2011, 10:31pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/ohio-puts-200-pound-third-grader-in-foster-care/604308/159 "2011-11-30T22:31:54Z")
> [@Troppus](#): > > The evidence is that you havenā€™t read the thread, or you would have already heard of Prader-Willi. In short, you care nothing about the debate, but wish to score points with an _ad hom_. I understand that. Itā€™s all you have got. ---
**Author:** ![Troppus](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/a587f6/32.png) [@Troppus](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Troppus)\ **Post date:** [November 30, 2011, 10:40pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/ohio-puts-200-pound-third-grader-in-foster-care/604308/160 "2011-11-30T22:40:17Z")
> [@Malthus](#): > > Look, you are constantly doing this and it makes any sort of worthwhile debate difficult. > (1) You make an absurdly exaggerated claim: > > (2) When called on it and countered with facts (in this case, that sleep apnea, while serious, is hardly the same thing as being unable to breathe without assistance) you shift to a mass of insulting rhetorical questions implying that puncturing your exaggeration is equivalent to _not caring_: > The answer, of course, is ā€œnoā€. I would not wish it on anyone. That is not the same thing as accepting overwrought exaggerations of its severity at face value. Well, weā€™re even, because I fail to see how you equate what was happening in this childā€™s natural home as love, I fail to see how sleep apnea in a morbidly obese eight year old child is no big deal, and I fail to see how you justify overlooking previous discussions of eating disorders and the input of an actual parent of an obese child. As for overwrought exaggerations, will this rather mild comparison work for you? Poison ivy rash rarely if ever kills a child, but is guaranteed to make them uncomfortable. Should a parent remove poison ivy from a playground frequented by a child? Or should the parent just shrug and say ā€œpeople have poison ivy rashes and survive without medical interventionā€. And yes, I suspect you will answer ā€œRemove the poison ivyā€ because the answer is a no-brainer. Well, to me, so is ā€œfeed the kid less, educate him about nutrition and do everything you can to prevent obesity-related illness from negatively affecting his quality of life, and act with haste if social services is threatening to remove him from his home if his health doesnā€™t show improvement over the course of one year.ā€ [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/ohio-puts-200-pound-third-grader-in-foster-care/604308.md?page=7) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/ohio-puts-200-pound-third-grader-in-foster-care/604308.md?page=9)