# Ohio recount? **URL:** \ **Category:** Great Debates\ **Created:** [November 4, 2004, 6:14pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/ohio-recount/273008 "2004-11-04T18:14:29Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 1
**Author:** ![davidm](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/davidm/32/225_2.png) [@davidm](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/davidm)\ **Post date:** [November 4, 2004, 6:14pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/ohio-recount/273008/1 "2004-11-04T18:14:29Z")
[Kerry Won](http://www.tompaine.com/articles/kerry_won.php) The article claims that a recount would most likely show that Kerry won. Is there anything to it? Someone is bound to start a thread about it sooner or later so it may as well be me. I’m not sure what to think of this. It’s going to be all over the net soon enough. Are Kerry or the Democratic party the only ones who can sue for a recount? Can private individuals or groups do so? And if they do, will the Supremes shut it down? Can the country go through something like this again? Should we? ---
**Author:** ![BMalion](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/e274bd/32.png) [@BMalion](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/BMalion)\ **Post date:** [November 4, 2004, 6:43pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/ohio-recount/273008/2 "2004-11-04T18:43:44Z")
The man conceded, the point is moot. ---
**Author:** ![SmackFu](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/53a042/32.png) [@SmackFu](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/SmackFu)\ **Post date:** [November 4, 2004, 6:43pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/ohio-recount/273008/3 "2004-11-04T18:43:51Z")
Two things: 1. They are going to count the provisional ballots. So that doesn’t neead a recount. 2. You can’t assume that most spoiled ballots are just hanging chads. If someone votes for two candidates or doesn’t vote for any, that’s spoiled and uncountable. ---
**Author:** ![RikWriter](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/49beb7/32.png) [@RikWriter](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/RikWriter)\ **Post date:** [November 4, 2004, 6:47pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/ohio-recount/273008/4 "2004-11-04T18:47:17Z")
Wouldn’t matter. Absentee ballots coming in are about to swing Wisconsin to Bush, so he would have won without Ohio anyway. ---
**Author:** ![Gangster\_Octopus](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/g/a8b319/32.png) [@Gangster\_Octopus](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Gangster_Octopus)\ **Post date:** [November 4, 2004, 6:47pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/ohio-recount/273008/5 "2004-11-04T18:47:52Z")
If after what happened in Florida, you still cannot do a punch card ballot correctly then maybe your vote shouldn’t be counted. ---
**Author:** ![davidm](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/davidm/32/225_2.png) [@davidm](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/davidm)\ **Post date:** [November 4, 2004, 6:49pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/ohio-recount/273008/6 "2004-11-04T18:49:09Z")
> [@BMalion](#): > > The man conceded, the point is moot. Actually, a concession has no legal standing. Hypothetically, _if_ there were a recound and _if_ Kerry won (both are big ifs), then the electoral college would vote for him. If he refused the position at that point than I suppose it would follow the legal line of succession with Edwards given the opportunity if he wants it. ---
**Author:** ![Cheesesteak](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/cheesesteak/32/3694_2.png) [@Cheesesteak](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Cheesesteak)\ **Post date:** [November 4, 2004, 6:50pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/ohio-recount/273008/7 "2004-11-04T18:50:42Z")
Well, let’s just first start here with the article > [@](#): > > CNN’s exit poll showed Kerry beating Bush among Ohio women by 53 percent to 47 percent. Kerry also defeated Bush among Ohio’s male voters 51 percent to 49 percent. Unless a third gender voted in Ohio, Kerry took the state. If you go onto CNN today and look at [Ohio](http://www.cnn.com/ELECTION/2004/pages/results/states/OH/P/00/epolls.0.html) You’ll notice that Bush took the men 53/47 and the women were 50/50. Unless CNN is changing their exit poll data to match up with the election, we can state that his entire premise is flawed. ---
**Author:** ![davidm](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/davidm/32/225_2.png) [@davidm](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/davidm)\ **Post date:** [November 4, 2004, 6:51pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/ohio-recount/273008/8 "2004-11-04T18:51:00Z")
> [@Gangster Octopus](#): > > If after what happened in Florida, you still cannot do a punch card ballot correctly then maybe your vote shouldn’t be counted. So then your position is that voting is some kind of skills challenge? What is your reasoning for that? ---
**Author:** ![John\_Corrado](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/j/a88e4f/32.png) [@John\_Corrado](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/John_Corrado)\ **Post date:** [November 4, 2004, 7:02pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/ohio-recount/273008/9 "2004-11-04T19:02:27Z")
The other point being that the entirety of the article is based on one assumption: exit polling data was perfectly accurate. There was no margin of error, everyone sampled was the exact perfection of the sample they were supposed to represent, and absolutely no one lied about who they voted for. If Ohio had _any_ chance of being overturned, I doubt Kerry and the Democratic leadership would have shrugged and said, “Ah, well, it’s too hard. Let’s just give up.” ---
**Author:** ![bup](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/6bbea6/32.png) [@bup](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/bup)\ **Post date:** [November 4, 2004, 7:22pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/ohio-recount/273008/10 "2004-11-04T19:22:35Z")
How does one recount a Diebold machine with no paper trail, anyhow? :dubious: ---
**Author:** ![davidm](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/davidm/32/225_2.png) [@davidm](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/davidm)\ **Post date:** [November 4, 2004, 7:40pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/ohio-recount/273008/11 "2004-11-04T19:40:24Z")
> [@Cheesesteak](#): > > Well, let’s just first start here with the article If you go onto CNN today and look at [Ohio](http://www.cnn.com/ELECTION/2004/pages/results/states/OH/P/00/epolls.0.html) You’ll notice that Bush took the men 53/47 and the women were 50/50. > > Unless CNN is changing their exit poll data to match up with the election, we can state that his entire premise is flawed. Hmm. You’re correct. I wonder how he got that so wrong? ---
**Author:** ![Walloon](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/w/fbc32d/32.png) [@Walloon](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Walloon)\ **Post date:** [November 4, 2004, 7:52pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/ohio-recount/273008/12 "2004-11-04T19:52:01Z")
> [@RikWriter](#): > > Absentee ballots coming in are about to swing Wisconsin to Bush, so he would have won without Ohio anyway. Cite? ---
**Author:** ![Acsenray](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/acsenray/32/4519_2.png) [@Acsenray](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Acsenray)\ **Post date:** [November 4, 2004, 7:53pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/ohio-recount/273008/13 "2004-11-04T19:53:13Z")
> [@bup](#): > > How does one recount a Diebold machine with no paper trail, anyhow? :dubious: If we’re talking about Ohio, I believe that Diebold machines are not used in Ohio. Most precincts in Ohio still use punch cards. ---
**Author:** ![davidm](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/davidm/32/225_2.png) [@davidm](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/davidm)\ **Post date:** [November 4, 2004, 7:57pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/ohio-recount/273008/14 "2004-11-04T19:57:05Z")
> [@bup](#): > > How does one recount a Diebold machine with no paper trail, anyhow? :dubious: He’s talking about punch cards. But the whole thing may be moot. **Cheesesteak** has pointed out the major flaw in his argument. ---
**Author:** ![RickJay](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/bb73d2/32.png) [@RickJay](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/RickJay)\ **Post date:** [November 4, 2004, 8:16pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/ohio-recount/273008/15 "2004-11-04T20:16:31Z")
> [@John Corrado](#): > > The other point being that the entirety of the article is based on one assumption: exit polling data was perfectly accurate. There was no margin of error, everyone sampled was the exact perfection of the sample they were supposed to represent, and absolutely no one lied about who they voted for. Exit polls aren’t even entirely randomly selected samples. They cannot be trusted to be accurate. They never HAVE been entirely accurate. ---
**Author:** ![bup](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/6bbea6/32.png) [@bup](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/bup)\ **Post date:** [November 4, 2004, 8:17pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/ohio-recount/273008/16 "2004-11-04T20:17:23Z")
30% of Ohio used Diebolds, I read at some reputable news site (can’t find it again right now). Even if they can recount the parts of the state that have punch cards, it’s ridiculous to ignore the parts that can’t - in fact, I believe the Supreme Court had something to say about equal protection under the law a few years ago. Also, many states have automatic recounts if the vote is within .X% - what does that mean for a place where all you have is the results of the Diebold machines? I e-mailed the Tom Paine site to ask about the discrepancy, with a link to the CNN exit poll for Ohio. We’ll see if anybody responds. ---
**Author:** ![Lord\_Ashtar](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/l/7ea924/32.png) [@Lord\_Ashtar](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Lord_Ashtar)\ **Post date:** [November 4, 2004, 8:27pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/ohio-recount/273008/17 "2004-11-04T20:27:22Z")
> [@Gangster Octopus](#): > > If after what happened in Florida, you still cannot do a punch card ballot correctly then maybe your vote shouldn’t be counted. Agreed. ---
**Author:** ![davidm](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/davidm/32/225_2.png) [@davidm](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/davidm)\ **Post date:** [November 4, 2004, 8:39pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/ohio-recount/273008/18 "2004-11-04T20:39:28Z")
> [@Lord Ashtar](#): > > Agreed. I don’t want to hijack my thread into a discussion about people’s ability to punch cards (and I’m sure that it was already discussed to death in 2000) but I’m really dismayed to see two people, you and **Gangster Octopus** , that agree with this elitist sentiment. Do you really believe that voting should be seen as some sort of test of the voter’s ability to punch a hole in a card? Punchcards should be done away with completely but, if they are used and the election is close, then they should be recounted and examined manually. Do you have any relatives with arthritis or some kind of movement or eyesight problem? Do you sincerely believe that this should disqualify them from voting? If so, then I just don’t know what to say to you. ---
**Author:** ![suranyi](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/e36b37/32.png) [@suranyi](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/suranyi)\ **Post date:** [November 4, 2004, 9:02pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/ohio-recount/273008/19 "2004-11-04T21:02:38Z")
> [@Cheesesteak](#): > > Well, let’s just first start here with the article If you go onto CNN today and look at [Ohio](http://www.cnn.com/ELECTION/2004/pages/results/states/OH/P/00/epolls.0.html) You’ll notice that Bush took the men 53/47 and the women were 50/50. > > Unless CNN is changing their exit poll data to match up with the election, we can state that his entire premise is flawed. Apparently the early exit polls, which were released around noon for some reason, showed Kerry winning, but the late exit polls showed him losing, by about the same margin as the actual vote totals. I’ve seen two possible explanations, which are related: 1. Democrats voted earlier than Republicans, perhaps because they really wanted to get rid of Bush. 2. The release of the early exit polls galvanized Republicans into voting. Ed ---
**Author:** ![davidm](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/davidm/32/225_2.png) [@davidm](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/davidm)\ **Post date:** [November 4, 2004, 9:08pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/ohio-recount/273008/20 "2004-11-04T21:08:48Z")
> [@suranyi](#): > > Apparently the early exit polls, which were released around noon for some reason, showed Kerry winning, but the late exit polls showed him losing, by about the same margin as the actual vote totals… I guess that would explain it then. Do you have a cite for that? [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/ohio-recount/273008.md?page=2)