# Ohio School Shooter - Moral/Legal Role of the Parents? **URL:** \ **Category:** Great Debates\ **Created:** [February 28, 2012, 6:33pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/ohio-school-shooter-moral-legal-role-of-the-parents/614270 "2012-02-28T18:33:01Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 2
**Author:** ![erislover](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/71e660/32.png) [@erislover](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/erislover)\ **Post date:** [February 28, 2012, 8:23pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/ohio-school-shooter-moral-legal-role-of-the-parents/614270/21 "2012-02-28T20:23:16Z")
Surely someone has done the math already. If we use the data we have on school shootings relative to the population of high-schoolers at the time (I guess we should actually extend it to colleges and high schools), what are the chances of a school shooter cropping up? If every day is a lottery, the odds must be pretty long indeed for this paltry number of hits. Unfortunately I can dig up no real numbers here. ---
**Author:** ![Condescending\_Robot](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/a183cd/32.png) [@Condescending\_Robot](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Condescending_Robot)\ **Post date:** [February 28, 2012, 8:24pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/ohio-school-shooter-moral-legal-role-of-the-parents/614270/22 "2012-02-28T20:24:41Z")
> [@Marley23](#): > > That’s more reasonable than blaming it on Marilyn Manson and other bullshit, but it’s probably still wrong. As far as I know, neither of the Coumbine shooters was physically abused. One of them was on medication for problems including depression, although the drug he was on can cause increased aggression and both of them had more severe problems, and the stuff they were doing should have made people realize that. No one ever bothered investigating the parents because the nation was divided into the “this happened because of guns” and “this happened because of video games and Marilyn Manson” camps. To this day you will hear FBI agents talk about how “normal and loving” Klebold’s parents were. Since when do “normal and loving” parents raise mass murderers? At a minimum they were guilty of not taking their son’s mental illness seriously, and I have absolutely no doubt that if anyone had done the slightest amount of digging you would have found a cycle of violence within the family. ---
**Author:** ![Marley23](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/45deac/32.png) [@Marley23](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Marley23)\ **Post date:** [February 28, 2012, 8:28pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/ohio-school-shooter-moral-legal-role-of-the-parents/614270/23 "2012-02-28T20:28:33Z")
> [@Sateryn76](#): > > Which “people” would have more opportunity and responsibility to realize that than their parents? I didn’t say anyone had more opportunity and responsibility than their parents. Their parents should have been paying enough attention to know what was going on, and they obviously were not. The police also should have known better, too, since one of the shooters once got into trouble for threatening another student (police looked at his website, which showed the future shooters were already messing around with pipe bombs) and they managed to get themselves arrested once. > [@](#): > > I betcha those kids were emotionally neglected. That’s a reasonable theory. But **Condescending Robot** said for a fact that nobody does this unless they’re physically abused and have an untreated mental illness, and we’re already downgrading that to emotional neglect (still terrible, but not physical abuse plus untreated mental illness) in an attempt to make it more reasonable. Certainly it’s not impossible that the Ohio shooter was abused and in need of treatment, but it’s foolish to assume that’s the case since we can already see it’s not true in all cases. > [@Condescending\_Robot](#): > > Since when do “normal and loving” parents raise mass murderers? Sounds like you’re assuming the conclusion there. > [@](#): > > At a minimum they were guilty of not taking their son’s mental illness seriously It sounds that way. Then again, the other shooter was being treated- even though I’m sure it wasn’t enough and may have been the wrong drug. > [@](#): > > I have absolutely no doubt that if anyone had done the slightest amount of digging you would have found a cycle of violence within the family. Maybe. Like I said, you’re assuming, and if you do that you should be open about it instead of presenting it as a proven fact and making a prediction about what it means for the shooting in Ohio. ---
**Author:** ![snowthx](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/snowthx/32/10660_2.png) [@snowthx](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/snowthx)\ **Post date:** [February 28, 2012, 8:30pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/ohio-school-shooter-moral-legal-role-of-the-parents/614270/24 "2012-02-28T20:30:01Z")
> [@Evil\_Captor](#): > > I would like to know how he got the gun though. I’m thinking “Dad” but it would be nice to know for sure. I know our gun-loving board members will object that it is not the weapon that does it, but I like for people to be reminded of the cost of having free access to guns for practically everyone. Yes, I do not want to turn this nice thread into another gun debate, but ISTM the parents are at least responsible for not properly securing a firearm, if, in fact, the gun came from home. On top of that, if they knew they have an unstable young person, maybe on meds, living with them, more precaution should/would have been taken with said firearm. However, a determined young mind can always find a way to get a gun. Whomever gave/allowed/looked the other way - for this boy to get the gun is partially responsible, too. Altho, I agree the ultimate responsibility lies with the shooter himself. ---
**Author:** ![erislover](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/71e660/32.png) [@erislover](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/erislover)\ **Post date:** [February 28, 2012, 8:30pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/ohio-school-shooter-moral-legal-role-of-the-parents/614270/25 "2012-02-28T20:30:14Z")
> [@Condescending\_Robot](#): > > Since when do “normal and loving” parents raise mass murderers? How many mass murderers have we had, so we can calculate our confidence in the statistic? ---
**Author:** ![Scumpup](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/ce73a5/32.png) [@Scumpup](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Scumpup)\ **Post date:** [February 28, 2012, 8:48pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/ohio-school-shooter-moral-legal-role-of-the-parents/614270/26 "2012-02-28T20:48:58Z")
> [@snowthx](#): > > Yes, I do not want to turn this nice thread into another gun debate, but ISTM the parents are at least responsible for not properly securing a firearm, if, in fact, the gun came from home. On top of that, if they knew they have an unstable young person, maybe on meds, living with them, more precaution should/would have been taken with said firearm. However, a determined young mind can always find a way to get a gun. > > Whomever gave/allowed/looked the other way - for this boy to get the gun is partially responsible, too. Altho, I agree the ultimate responsibility lies with the shooter himself. I’d just like to be the first one to blame the NRA, the company that made the gun (an all of its stockholders), and American gun culture. They might as well have pulled the trigger themselves. ---
**Author:** ![Rachellelogram](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/rachellelogram/32/8689_2.png) [@Rachellelogram](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Rachellelogram)\ **Post date:** [February 28, 2012, 8:56pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/ohio-school-shooter-moral-legal-role-of-the-parents/614270/27 "2012-02-28T20:56:06Z")
Look, hindsight is always 20/20. Friends of the deceased will wail, “We should have seen it coming! We should have done more!” Well, how many thousands or millions of kids are similarly disaffected, but DON’T end up shooting schools? There \*was \*no way to predict this. There never will be, unless we 1) require parents to pass a series of tests before squirting out a kid, then require regular checkups to make sure they’re good parents, 2) require the kid to pass a series of mental exams before going to school, and 3) require 100% of schoolchildren to completely stop bullying (good luck with that). It’s sad, of course it’s sad, and we all wish it didn’t happen. But talking about how to prevent these tragedies is a waste of time. It requires the perfect storm of a uniquely unstable kid with uniquely neglectful parents who’s on the receiving end of uniquely horrific bullying. Lots of mentally ill kids with horrible parents still find a support system through friends, and so they don’t shoot up schools. Other kids are mentally ill and get bullied horribly, but their parents are wonderful so they don’t shoot up schools. And yet more kids have terrible parents and get badly bullied, but aren’t mentally unstable enough to shoot up schools (they may still be very mentally unstable, but not bad enough to get all murderous about it). Desperate people try to make it seem so obvious in retrospect, but that’s not how reasoning works. How many other kids seem to be exactly like this kid, but aren’t taking guns to school? Thousands across the country, at least. ---
**Author:** ![Czarcasm](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/czarcasm/32/4050_2.png) [@Czarcasm](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Czarcasm)\ **Post date:** [February 28, 2012, 9:00pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/ohio-school-shooter-moral-legal-role-of-the-parents/614270/28 "2012-02-28T21:00:51Z")
> [@Scumpup](#): > > I’d just like to be the first one to blame the NRA, the company that made the gun (an all of its stockholders), and American gun culture. They might as well have pulled the trigger themselves. This, folks, is what is known as a “preemptive strike” against a “strawman”. It allows the user of this tactic to avoid civil discourse by bemoaning the extremism of the other side. ---
**Author:** ![Marley23](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/45deac/32.png) [@Marley23](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Marley23)\ **Post date:** [February 28, 2012, 9:18pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/ohio-school-shooter-moral-legal-role-of-the-parents/614270/29 "2012-02-28T21:18:51Z")
> [@rachelellogram](#): > > Look, hindsight is always 20/20. Friends of the deceased will wail, “We should have seen it coming! We should have done more!” Well, how many thousands or millions of kids are similarly disaffected, but DON’T end up shooting schools? There \*was \*no way to predict this. I do think it’s also possible to go too far in this direction- noting again that we don’t know much about the kid who did this. It’s unlikely people could have predicted he was going to kill anyone, but it’s possible there were signs he needed help that people might’ve noticed if they’d thought more about it. I’m sure sometimes shooters like these don’t seem particularly different from lots of other kids; other times there are real warning signs. The Virginia Tech shooter was so obviously crazy that some of his classmates joked about him getting guns and shooting up the campus. By the way, it’s now being reported that Lane was shot students at random and did not know the people he injured and killed. ---
**Author:** ![Czarcasm](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/czarcasm/32/4050_2.png) [@Czarcasm](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Czarcasm)\ **Post date:** [February 28, 2012, 9:22pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/ohio-school-shooter-moral-legal-role-of-the-parents/614270/30 "2012-02-28T21:22:12Z")
I really don’t think there can be a single reason for this shooting, and the multiple reasons that caused this incident might not have anything much in common with the the reasons for the last shootings, or with the reasons for the next shootings. It might be best to keep _everything_ on the table for now-parents, schools, environment, bullying, and even gun availability/culture. ---
**Author:** ![Sateryn76](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/a88e4f/32.png) [@Sateryn76](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Sateryn76)\ **Post date:** [February 28, 2012, 9:25pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/ohio-school-shooter-moral-legal-role-of-the-parents/614270/31 "2012-02-28T21:25:22Z")
> [@rachelellogram](#): > > Look, hindsight is always 20/20. Friends of the deceased will wail, “We should have seen it coming! We should have done more!” Well, how many thousands or millions of kids are similarly disaffected, but DON’T end up shooting schools? There \*was \*no way to predict this. There never will be, unless we 1) require parents to pass a series of tests before squirting out a kid, then require regular checkups to make sure they’re good parents, 2) require the kid to pass a series of mental exams before going to school, and 3) require 100% of schoolchildren to completely stop bullying (good luck with that). > > It’s sad, of course it’s sad, and we all wish it didn’t happen. But talking about how to prevent these tragedies is a waste of time. It requires the perfect storm of a uniquely unstable kid with uniquely neglectful parents who’s on the receiving end of uniquely horrific bullying. Lots of mentally ill kids with horrible parents still find a support system through friends, and so they don’t shoot up schools. Other kids are mentally ill and get bullied horribly, but their parents are wonderful so they don’t shoot up schools. And yet more kids have terrible parents and get badly bullied, but aren’t mentally unstable enough to shoot up schools (they may still be very mentally unstable, but not bad enough to get all murderous about it). > > Desperate people try to make it seem so obvious in retrospect, but that’s not how reasoning works. How many other kids seem to be exactly like this kid, but aren’t taking guns to school? Thousands across the country, at least. I suppose I did frame the OP rather narrowly, but you do realize that there are lots of teenagers shooting and beating each other up, right? They may not be rich white kids, but there are lots of teens who have crappy parents, and often innocent people take the brunt of it. ---
**Author:** ![FixMyIgnorance](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/f/7feea3/32.png) [@FixMyIgnorance](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/FixMyIgnorance)\ **Post date:** [February 28, 2012, 10:05pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/ohio-school-shooter-moral-legal-role-of-the-parents/614270/32 "2012-02-28T22:05:22Z")
If you take the time to look through the motives of the dudes who led the notable school shootings: [School shooting - Wikipedia](http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/School_shooting#Notable_school_shootings) You’ll notice that motives are typically all over the place. Sometimes it’s just bullying and outcasting that pisses people off past the point of no return. Sometimes it’s a lifetime of psychological pain. Sometimes it may be a brain tumor/mental illness. Sometimes it’s over petty arguments. Sometimes it’s over drugs. Sometimes it’s because of traumatic events like going through a family divorce or family death. Sometimes it’s due to extreme depression or a feeling of lack of control over one’s life. Sometimes there’s just no rhyme or reason to it at all. There are just too many possible factors that lead people to do what they do and it’s not going to do any good trying to profile/pre-screen people for such a rare and variable type of event. ---
**Author:** ![Scumpup](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/ce73a5/32.png) [@Scumpup](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Scumpup)\ **Post date:** [February 28, 2012, 10:06pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/ohio-school-shooter-moral-legal-role-of-the-parents/614270/33 "2012-02-28T22:06:20Z")
> [@Czarcasm](#): > > This, folks, is what is known as a “preemptive strike” against a “strawman”. It allows the user of this tactic to avoid civil discourse by bemoaning the extremism of the other side. There’s just no satisfying you. ---
**Author:** ![Scumpup](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/ce73a5/32.png) [@Scumpup](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Scumpup)\ **Post date:** [February 28, 2012, 10:12pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/ohio-school-shooter-moral-legal-role-of-the-parents/614270/34 "2012-02-28T22:12:23Z")
> [@Czarcasm](#): > > I really don’t think there can be a single reason for this shooting, and the multiple reasons that caused this incident might not have anything much in common with the the reasons for the last shootings, or with the reasons for the next shootings. It might be best to keep _everything_ on the table for now-parents, schools, environment, bullying, and even gun availability/culture. This, folks, is what is called “weaseling” by attempting to give the impression that “all” viewpoints are equally “valid” and the poster is “thoughtful” by giving “consideration” to all of them. The “problem” is that the poster basically took no stand and therefore his entire contribution amounts to “See how open-minded I am?” ---
**Author:** ![Marley23](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/45deac/32.png) [@Marley23](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Marley23)\ **Post date:** [February 28, 2012, 10:16pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/ohio-school-shooter-moral-legal-role-of-the-parents/614270/35 "2012-02-28T22:16:11Z")
> [@Scumpup](#): > > This, folks, is what is called “weaseling” by attempting to give the impression that “all” viewpoints are equally “valid” and the poster is “thoughtful” by giving “consideration” to all of them. The “problem” is that the poster basically took no stand and therefore his entire contribution amounts to “See how open-minded I am?” Unfortunately he was right about your post and you’re wrong about his. ---
**Author:** ![just\_some\_guy5](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/j/5daacb/32.png) [@just\_some\_guy5](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/just_some_guy5)\ **Post date:** [February 28, 2012, 10:29pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/ohio-school-shooter-moral-legal-role-of-the-parents/614270/36 "2012-02-28T22:29:42Z")
> [@Scumpup](#): > > I’d just like to be the first one to blame the NRA, the company that made the gun (an all of its stockholders), and American gun culture. They might as well have pulled the trigger themselves. I sure hope your 401k / pension plan doesn’t hold any broad-based stock index funds. Otherwise, you might as well have pulled the trigger yourself. ---
**Author:** ![Czarcasm](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/czarcasm/32/4050_2.png) [@Czarcasm](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Czarcasm)\ **Post date:** [February 28, 2012, 10:40pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/ohio-school-shooter-moral-legal-role-of-the-parents/614270/37 "2012-02-28T22:40:59Z")
> [@FixMyIgnorance](#): > > If you take the time to look through the motives of the dudes who led the notable school shootings: [School shooting - Wikipedia](http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/School_shooting#Notable_school_shootings) > > You’ll notice that motives are typically all over the place. Sometimes it’s just bullying and outcasting that pisses people off past the point of no return. Sometimes it’s a lifetime of psychological pain. Sometimes it may be a brain tumor/mental illness. Sometimes it’s over petty arguments. Sometimes it’s over drugs. Sometimes it’s because of traumatic events like going through a family divorce or family death. Sometimes it’s due to extreme depression or a feeling of lack of control over one’s life. Sometimes there’s just no rhyme or reason to it at all. > > There are just too many possible factors that lead people to do what they do and it’s not going to do any good trying to profile/pre-screen people for such a rare and variable type of event. This, pretty much. If there are any commonalities, they are too damn broad to be of any practical use. ---
**Author:** ![magellan01](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/45deac/32.png) [@magellan01](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/magellan01)\ **Post date:** [February 28, 2012, 10:51pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/ohio-school-shooter-moral-legal-role-of-the-parents/614270/38 "2012-02-28T22:51:25Z")
> [@Marley23](#): > > Unfortunately he was right about your post and you’re wrong about his. +1 ---
**Author:** ![magellan01](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/45deac/32.png) [@magellan01](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/magellan01)\ **Post date:** [February 28, 2012, 10:52pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/ohio-school-shooter-moral-legal-role-of-the-parents/614270/39 "2012-02-28T22:52:26Z")
> [@snowthx](#): > > Yes, I do not want to turn this nice thread into another gun debate, but ISTM the parents are at least responsible for not properly securing a firearm, if, in fact, the gun came from home. On top of that, if they knew they have an unstable young person, maybe on meds, living with them, more precaution should/would have been taken with said firearm. However, a determined young mind can always find a way to get a gun. > > Whomever gave/allowed/looked the other way - for this boy to get the gun is partially responsible, too. Altho, I agree the ultimate responsibility lies with the shooter himself. I think this sums things up as well as can be done at this time. ---
**Author:** ![Kolga](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/k/e56c9b/32.png) [@Kolga](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Kolga)\ **Post date:** [February 28, 2012, 11:03pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/ohio-school-shooter-moral-legal-role-of-the-parents/614270/40 "2012-02-28T23:03:15Z")
> [@Marley23](#): > > As far as I know, neither of the Coumbine shooters was physically abused. One of them was on medication for problems including depression, although the drug he was on can cause increased aggression and both of them had more severe problems, and the stuff they were doing should have made people realize that. There were no reports of physical abuse or neglect on the part of the Harris and Klebold parents. From my reading, Eric Harris had been on Lexapro at one time, but by the time of the Columbine incident, had not been taking the medication for about a year. From some reports, Dylan Klebold was heading more and more into a disorganized thought pattern that might (MIGHT) have resulted in a psychotic disorder. > [@FixMyIgnorance](#): > > There are just too many possible factors that lead people to do what they do and it’s not going to do any good trying to profile/pre-screen people for such a rare and variable type of event. This. Trying to predict motive _a priori_ for school shootings is as difficult as trying to predict _a priori_ which people will turn out to be serial killers. The “risk factors” identified for school shooters apply equally to hundreds of thousands of children in America every year. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/ohio-school-shooter-moral-legal-role-of-the-parents/614270.md?page=1) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/ohio-school-shooter-moral-legal-role-of-the-parents/614270.md?page=3)