Oil prices: what if it is caused by speculation?

I think if you said supplies are limited because of a mixture of political economic and scientific limits you would be closer to the mark. Excluding economic and scientific limits is a bit broad and misses some issues related to lack of investment in the sector in the recent past, and clearly a reduction in the amount of easy high quality crude.

I personally think the rise is partially due to the movement of funds to the commodity market, it is one part of a rather complex story. There does seam to be a propensity to lump oil price changes onto a single cause. Last year, in the is $2 gas coming thread , the rise was blamed on Bush and election manipulation, in later threads it was all the fault of big oil manipulating the markets, now its is the evil speculators. Any one want to guess who next months evil oil overlord will be.

Good point. People rarely want to delve deeply into an issue in order to understand it. It’s much easier to have someone you can blame.

Definitely. Plus I think it’s easier to just knee jerk blame it on some group of Evil Rich™ than to take the time to actually understand what is a very complex system. It’s easier to sit around with your feet propped up drinking beer with the guys and coming up with easy silver bullet ‘solutions’ to all the worlds problems…than to attempt to understand all the messy complexity and reality stuff.

-XT

I believe I made the same comment and came to the same conclusion as Kevbo in this GD thread

…which I then promptly forgot about :smack:

I’ll have a shot at answering your question, though I’m no economist.

Debt is a liability. Whenever you lend money to someone, you wager that they will live and propsper long enough to repay you, preferably with an interest rate that meets or exceeds inflation.

The odds of that happening are never 100%. The longer the time period, the worse the odds are for the lender to get the (entire) loan back. When lenders get scared, they might decide to sell dollars at a loss to get what is perceived as a more stable currency (euros, swiss francs, yens). Anyone who traded their dollars for euros in the late 90s would be very happy now

Thus, the greater the debt, the less faith lenders have they’ll be repaid in time with strong currency and the lower its international market-value.

Of course, I might be very wrong.

Sorry you did not understand. It is not just our demand. it is clear that total demand is down. yet prices double. they did not just slide up.

It is not clear that total demand is down, unless your definition of total demand is not total global crude demand. If you have another definition could you provide it and prehapse give a citation for the hypothosis that total demand is down.

Acording to the IEA 2008 crude demand is going to be up 1.3% over 2007 with an additional 1.1Mbbl/day required. They have trimme dthe forcast by 250kbbl/day from last month, and may trim it further, but demand is still up.
OECD demand has dropped by 200k bl per day, however non OECD demand has raised by 1.3Mbbl per day.

Global demand is at about 86.8mbbl/day, global supply dropped last month by 400 kbbl day to 86.8mbbl day, OPEC spare capacity is estimated as a theoretical 2.3 mm bbl per day, although due to political instability, pipeline issues, refinery outages ,and poor quality crude with marketability issues, it is doubtful as to how much of that could be brought to market quickly or at all. And there lies one of the factors driving some of the market issues, namely OPECs response to all of this. In the past a controling factor on the price rise would be fear of what OPEC would do. No one wanted to be holding a bucket load of oil futures the day OPEC decide to boost production 1M bbl /day.
When the market hit 100 it appeared OPEC was not going to do anything. They did provide some reason for not doing so, which are not relevent, the point is they told the market they woud not add more capacity. With the demand still growing, and no additional supply about to be dumped onto the market by either OPEC or the rest of the world, 100 looks stable and there is posibilty for further upside, so more people buy oil futures driving up the price (if anyone has some idea on how futures options demand and pricing may affect the price I´d be intrested to know).
Now we are at 125 and OPEC is still not going to add production (again teh whys and wherefores are neither here nor there, as tehre will be no new fundamental to drive the price down) this looks like a comfortable level, for now.
Certainly there is a downward pressure on demand growth, and getting data from some parts of the world makes it hard to assess the scale of the impact of high prices, but unless there is a significant drop in demand or some new supply and no reason to be scared OPC will leave you shirtless with one press announcement no one will be seeing a reason for exiting the oil market or dumping there contracts now.

Yeah…but the demand in the U.S. is just down a few percent (like 4%?) even when the price doubled. What that indicates is an extremely inelastic demand curve (at least over the short term when most people can’t make major changes like buying a more fuel efficient car). That is the reason why prices are so volatile. If a doubling of the price caused the consumption to drop by half, you better believe the price would not have gone up nearly so much.

and it is even better to sit around with your feet propped up drinking a beer with the guys and gals (or a suprisingly nice Argentine syrah in this case) attempting to understand all the messy complexity.

Why is this anything but simple? Speculators are buying contracts and eventually need to by an offsetting contract. Net is zero sum unless more and more speculators keep piling in, but sooner or later they need to sell too. So either they guess right, and oil demand will exceed supply and the cost of providing it; or they guess wrong, in which case they lose money and there could very well be a rush to the exits.

As I’m sure it’s clear to everyone you don’t have a clue what you are talking about…as usual. However, as a follow up to NBC’s fine post I figured I’d post a link for those following along who may like one:

Look at the chart toward the bottom labeled World Oil Demand(mb/d) for a visual. As is clear to everyone but gonzo, WORLD oil demand is up, even if US oil demand is slightly lowered.

If I didn’t agree with you completely I wouldn’t spend my evenings and free hours hanging out on this board. :slight_smile:

-XT

That figure is very hard to wrap your mind around.

Isn’t it?

I did a little commodites trading for myself. Luckily, I didn’t lose the house. Only about $3000. It’s risky business. It’s darn right scary. And not for the timid.

And it can be hard to understand. You can buy contracts on comodities, and never expect deliverys. You can sell commodites with out actually owning them.

A contract to buy or sell is simply that. A contract that you WILL buy or or sell within a time frame. The time frame is what it is all about.

After you buy the contract is limited is limited in time. You must sell or take delivery.

:D. I have no place to put 50,000 bushles of wheat, or 5000 hogs so I was sure I sold the contract first. If it hits a high or low limit, you might not be able to sell or buy.

In my 6 months on a $4000 dollar investment (divested), I made $3000. I followed the technicals. I got greedy, and lost all but the first $1000 of the original investment. I was running all my buys and sells. It was just too much for me. It’s a 24X7 job. The thing is, you can lose more than you invest. You really need deep pockets for that.

Pehaps a real life example…

My propane provider will lock me in at a certain price for a years worth of fuel. Costs me $40 to get locked in at a certain price.

They give me a price (and this isn’t trading, this is just business). I now know that for the next year, I will be paying X for propane. Makes it easier to budget.

They then also know that I have agreed to buy X gallons of propane. The propane company then buys the contracts at the lowest prices they can, and hopes that they have predicted well.

The $40 dollars I pay to get on that contract assures me that propane will not go up more than 20 cents a gallon than I paid last year. That’s cheap insurance.

enipla, I did a small bit of futures trading too, for a year between High School and college believe it or not, many many moons ago, and perhaps that biases me, but I don’t see why that’s so hard to understand. You are making exactly the point that I was trying to make. You had to offset your buy or sell contract before it came due. Any speculative buy-in or sell-off that drove prices one way or the other had to be exactly offset in a defined period of time. It really cannot drive up prices over a long term.

Speculators are taking the risk of those price swings (and the potential for gain) from those who are more risk adverse, generally the real suppliers and buyers of real product. These speculators magnify their potential risk and potential benefit generally by trading on margin, so yes, you can lose much more than your investment in this game. I was an 17 year old kid, playing with $1000 loaned to me by my Dad as I worked as a runner (I had to leave the floor and go downstairs to call in my orders) … mind you I tripled my stake over the year. If I had stuck with it one more day it would have doubled again. One more day than that and I would have owed money. Needless to say I was glad I hadn’t gotten greedy.

Speculators like you were and I was, and others are today, allow the real producers and users of products to hedge against price fluctuations. This is better than just locking in the price as in your example. It arranges things such that any loss in the real market is offset by a gain in the futures one, in return for accepting that any gain in the real market will be offset by a loss in the futures one. But they can avoid the risk and proceed knowing about what their profit will actually be. Thus the businesses can actually plan.

In short, they are providing an important economic service even as they gamble away.

You’ve just discovered the supply and demand curve. Good work. You’ve got the cause and effect backwards, though. Think it through this way: “Prices double, driving down demand.”

Worldwide inventories of oil are about average. That means that the price increases are not out of line, because production is being purchased at about the historic rate at current prices.

So why the price rise? A couple of things. First, the cost of extracting oil is going up. Especially true with unconventional oils that are increasingly becoming part of the mix. But another part is that full production is currently barely meeting demand. There’s no slack in the system, which makes it very vulnerable to disruptions in supply or spikes in demand. That puts a risk premium on availability of future oil, which drives up the price. And currently there are a lot of risks out there - every time Hugo Chavez opens his mouth, oil stocks tremble. Iraq is getting better, and production is slightly above pre-war levels, but there’s a lot of uncertainty there as well. If Iraq slides back into civil war, a hell of a lot of oil is going to go offline.

I think oil might halt its climb for a while once the world calms down a bit. But it’s not going back to anywhere near the prices of even a year ago, IMO. High prices are here to stay, unless alternative energy sources really start cutting into the energy market in a big way.

Well sure Sam…it COULD be as you say. But, you know, it really could just be greedy Evil Capitalists™ in top hats smoking cigars and twirling their mustaches while sticking it to the working man!

Or, um, something like that…

-XT

Amongst anaylsts, there seem to be two competing schools of thought.

First, you have the Lehman Brothers school of thought that it is a classic bubble. There has been a herd mentality amongst investors that are chasing the gains and pushing prices higher and higher. Lehman makes a comparison to the dot.com boom. They site the increase in funds flow from institutional investors increasing their exposure to commodities as the primary driver. If the dollar strengthens, you could just as easily see the funds flow out of commodities and a bursting of a bubble.

Then you have the Goldman Sachs side. Goldman agrees that increased funds flow has been a strong contributing factor to the increases in prices. They just seem to state that despite this, the prices are supported by the fundamentals of the industry. If you look at the intermediate and long-term supply and demand projections, prices will continue to increase unless the supply / demand curve changes.

Now, future projections are all over the place. Some think a bubble will burst and will drop down to the $65-$70 range while others see a potential superspike bring prices to the $150-$200 range.

My personal opinion is that oil prices are historically proven to be very cyclical. I have almost no doubts that we’ll see a retreat of some kind. I just can’t see a prolonged decline though given the fundamentals. It is saying something though when the troughs in the cycle that people are predicting are around $70/bbl.

As an analog, during the Bay Area housing bubble people also gave reasons why the price increases were justified, including the fact that most communities in Silicon Valley were built out. And, based on house sales in my area anyway, prices are still historically high, though 10% or more below the peak. The question is how much of the current price is due to the bubble, and your guess is a lot better than mine.

HuffPost - Breaking News, U.S. and World News | HuffPost OPEC should get a hold of these libertarian dopers and learn the truth. They apparently do not understand that 9th grade economics is an immutable truth. It is not supply and demand driving up prices.

http://www.foxnews.com/story/0,2933,166038,00.html This article will explain it ,if you can grasp the fundamentals. Supply is high, Prices skyrocketing and speculation is the biggest reason.

I’m not sure what you think that cite demonstrates. All it is is an OPEC spokesman trying to convince the world that OPEC could still significantly increase production (which is almost certainly false) to keep the futures market on its toes. “Oh we could increase production if we wanted to, but it wouldn’t actually change the price.” :dubious: He’s spooning out bullshit, is what he’s doing.

Here’s the thing (or at least one of them) that you are failing to grasp. When you have maxed out the supply of something and the demand for that item still outstrips the supply, the price will rise until demand drops to the level of supply, and the demand will drop via people who want the good being priced out of the market.

Here’s an analogy. EVE Online is a scifi mmorpg where player characters fly about in spaceships and blow each other up. The in-game market is largely unregulated - items can be bought and sold through the market at any price two players can agree on. Most items in the game can be made by anyone (with varying degrees of efficiency), and so when prices edge up due to increased demand, supply will quickly grow to meet it. However, a while back there were some advanced items which could only be made by specific players that had won a lottery granting them licenses to build certain things (a bit more complicated than that, but the details don’t matter). This system worked okay for a while, but as time went on and the player base in the game grew, demand for these advanced items grew whilst supply remained fixed. Heavy Assault Cruisers were the most blatant case - they cost about 40 million ISK to build, and were selling for upwards of 250 million ISK. Regular production is doing good to have a 10-15% margin, but these guys had margins at 500% and more. The game forums featured thread after thread moaning about how the HAC builders were gouging and were obviously forming cartels to fix prices and on and on. Really it was just a fixed cap on supply, and growing demand. And as demand grew, the price went up, and up, and up, because to balance supply and demand you had to push the price up to the point where only a small portion of those who wanted a HAC could afford one. The builders weren’t fixing prices at all - in fact, if they’d sold their product on the market at a modest markup it would have been purchased in an instant by someone who would just turn around and sell it at the going rate anyways.

So it is with oil. Ordinarily when prices increase, production increases along with it as anyone who can would like to cash in on the potential profit. But even with historic prices for oil, the supply isn’t growing. If you were right that current pricing is due solely to speculation, supply would be growing, as would inventories. Neither is the case, therefore you are wrong. Period. Oh sure, new production is coming online, but old fields are petering out, and in spite of thousands upon thousands of new wells drilled every year the total output is just barely holding steady. The Saudis claim they could push their production up, but fewer and fewer people believe them. Iraq could produce a bunch more, but for obvious reasons isn’t. Venezuela is a bit of a basket case. But if it were easy, you can bet they’d be opening up the taps, since this is crazy profit there for the taking.

So, since we seem to have reached, or nearly reached, the peak of global oil production (let us say that we might yet see higher global production, but production growth will never again outstrip demand growth - I think that’s pretty safe) the only way to balance supply and demand is to boost the price till enough prospective buyers are priced out of the market. And yes, this means that upstream oil companies are rolling in profits. There’s absolutely no way around that unless you want to throw supply and demand even further out of balance.

Price controls will result in lower supply as extremely expensive recovery techniques are abandoned, while demand will boom because of the lower price. Say hello to rations and 8-hour lineups at the station, because this is a recipe for massive shortages.

Increased taxation on oil companies will also result in lower supply, for the same reason, as again the most expensive production will be shut down, only now because you haven’t capped the price instead of lineups you’ll get even higher prices in order to balance the still-high demand with the lower supply.

Face it. There is a genuine scarcity of oil, and the prices are justified by the balance of supply and demand. Barring technological breakthroughs, you had better get accustomed to the increased cost of transportation, because it is here to stay. But look on the bright side - we’ve got to be getting pretty close to the point where it’s economical to synthesize gasoline from coal.

They did. But there were also enough speculators and suckers in both bubbles to make them bubbles. That’s what you need for a bubble: a good mix of speculators and suckers.

But who’s buying oil (as if it were houses or dotcom stocks) simply because it’s going up, and they can sell it to someone at a higher price? Nobody, really. As enipla and DSeid have now explained, buying commodities futures contracts isn’t at all the same thing: each buy must be offset by a sell, or you’re going to wind up with a bunch of longshoremen stacking barrels of oil on your front lawn. (OK, I’m sure it’s not like that, but you’d have to take delivery of the oil in some manner, and the image was too good not to share. :)) People are only buying actual oil to refine it and turn it into gasoline, jet fuel, and so forth, because other people keep on buying the gasoline and so forth - not to store it in a tank in the garage and sell at a higher price next week, but to fuel their cars so they can drive to work and run their errands.

How do you know this?