# Oil - straight from the horses mouth **URL:** \ **Category:** Great Debates\ **Created:** [June 4, 2003, 4:07pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/oil-straight-from-the-horses-mouth/179627 "2003-06-04T16:07:56Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 2
**Author:** ![squeegee](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/squeegee/32/14537_2.png) [@squeegee](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/squeegee)\ **Post date:** [June 4, 2003, 9:36pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/oil-straight-from-the-horses-mouth/179627/21 "2003-06-04T21:36:46Z")
Yes, I’d have to agree – the Guardian story completely twisted what was said by the Wolf-man. Move along. No story here. ---
**Author:** ![MrTuffPaws](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/f475e1/32.png) [@MrTuffPaws](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/MrTuffPaws)\ **Post date:** [June 4, 2003, 9:45pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/oil-straight-from-the-horses-mouth/179627/22 "2003-06-04T21:45:05Z")
Ah shucks! ---
**Author:** ![PatriotX](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/p/c4cdca/32.png) [@PatriotX](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/PatriotX)\ **Post date:** [June 4, 2003, 10:02pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/oil-straight-from-the-horses-mouth/179627/23 "2003-06-04T22:02:46Z")
It’s not that bad. Wolfowitz _did_ say that oil was the reason for military intervention in Iraq. It is pretty bad AND shameless though. That, after all, is the rep of the Guardian as I know it. ---
**Author:** ![quixotic78](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/q/3ab097/32.png) [@quixotic78](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/quixotic78)\ **Post date:** [June 4, 2003, 10:24pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/oil-straight-from-the-horses-mouth/179627/24 "2003-06-04T22:24:30Z")
> [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by Shodan \* > North Korea has no such resources, and therefore our “economic options” exist in a way that never did with an oil state like Iraq. This is what Wolfowitz meant by “a major point of leverage” with North Korea. > > I agree that the point is not very clear, but I don’t think Wolfowitz meant anything like what the Guardian wanted. To claim that this is a confession that the Iraqi invasion was all about oil is a gross distortion of the text. > \*\* Sounds like a pretty good analysis to me. I was rather skeptical of the Guardian’s claim, especially given what Wolfowitz said, what, yesterday? (See my first link in this thread). I’m with **squeegee** – no story here, really. ---
**Author:** ![december](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/838e76/32.png) [@december](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/december)\ **Post date:** [June 4, 2003, 10:27pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/oil-straight-from-the-horses-mouth/179627/25 "2003-06-04T22:27:17Z")
> [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by quixotic78 \* > I’m with **squeegee** – no story here, really. Maybe there’s one story – the willingness of the _Guardian_ to manipulate a quote in order to mislead their readers. ---
**Author:** ![jshore](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/j/b5e925/32.png) [@jshore](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/jshore)\ **Post date:** [June 4, 2003, 10:43pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/oil-straight-from-the-horses-mouth/179627/26 "2003-06-04T22:43:59Z")
> [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by The Calculus of Logic \* > Hitler faked that liberation was his motive for expanding eastward. > the USSR faked that liberation was their motive for building an international empire. > Mussolini faked that liberation was his motive when he invaded Ethiopia. > The Japanese faked that liberation was their agenda when they invaded China. Wow, with company like this, I feel better already! :rolleyes: > [@](#): > > However, unlike these countries, i tend to believe the _actions_ of the US will actually produce a better life for average people in Iraq. Anyone can claim liberation as their motive (and they usually do), but if the actions don’t back it up then its a lie. Since we live in an age of anti-US bias and a free international press i’m sure the plight of the Iraqi people and government will come to light, for better or worse. And, who, pray tell, is going to be the judge of whether the U.S.'s actions back up its claims? Your statement of an “anti-US bias” sounds like a ready-made excuse to be rather selective in your sourcing. [This leaves aside the issue that judging the U.S.'s actions in this way seems to be precisely saying that the ends justify the means.] ---
**Author:** ![manhattan](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/manhattan/32/7_2.png) [@manhattan](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/manhattan)\ **Post date:** [June 4, 2003, 11:03pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/oil-straight-from-the-horses-mouth/179627/27 "2003-06-04T23:03:17Z")
When are people going to stop making themselves look like idiots by basing a thread on a Guardian story? Look, I know both sides of any issue are likely to get overexcited about news stories that tend to support their view and thus rely on unreliable sources (like the New York Times, apparently 😉 ). But the Guardian is a special case. Those guys misquoted [us! (Specifically, David B.)](http://www.guardian.co.uk/g2/story/0,3604,791222,00.html) (corrected a few days later after we complained). Stop relying on them. Read them (if you must) as you read the Inquirer, and wait until collaboration exists before associating yourself with them. Really, we’re all about fighting ignorance here, and it’s pretty damn clear that the Guardian is not on our side. ---
**Author:** ![Gyrate](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/gyrate/32/3588_2.png) [@Gyrate](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Gyrate)\ **Post date:** [June 4, 2003, 11:10pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/oil-straight-from-the-horses-mouth/179627/28 "2003-06-04T23:10:58Z")
These days, I only buy the Guardian for the job listings. > [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by manhattan \* > \*\*Look, I know both sides of any issue are likely to get overexcited about news stories that tend to support their view and thus rely on unreliable sources (like the New York Times, apparently 😉 ). \*\* [Or the Associated Press](http://www.thememoryhole.org/media/ap-banner.htm)… :rolleyes: ---
**Author:** ![jshore](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/j/b5e925/32.png) [@jshore](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/jshore)\ **Post date:** [June 4, 2003, 11:51pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/oil-straight-from-the-horses-mouth/179627/29 "2003-06-04T23:51:30Z")
Well, it does look like The Guardian really blew that story. I was sort of skeptical that Wolfowitz would be as stupid, in a political sense, as to make the admission that The Guardian article claimed he made. Whatever you think of these guys in terms of their world view and such, I think they are wily enough to avoid saying what The Guardian said they had said. ---
**Author:** ![jshore](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/j/b5e925/32.png) [@jshore](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/jshore)\ **Post date:** [June 4, 2003, 11:54pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/oil-straight-from-the-horses-mouth/179627/30 "2003-06-04T23:54:45Z")
P.S. - If I ran the zoo, at least one head would probably start to roll at The Guardian over this. All we need is to have liberal media outlets dropping to the same low standards as conservative ones like Fox! ---
**Author:** ![Gyrate](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/gyrate/32/3588_2.png) [@Gyrate](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Gyrate)\ **Post date:** [June 5, 2003, 12:01am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/oil-straight-from-the-horses-mouth/179627/31 "2003-06-05T00:01:56Z")
Pfeh. The thing you have to realize about the Guardian is that any reporting errors are due not so much to political leanings as they are to general incompetence. The “Grauniad” has one of the busiest Corrections editors in the business. ---
**Author:** ![elucidator](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/8edcca/32.png) [@elucidator](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/elucidator)\ **Post date:** [June 5, 2003, 12:10am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/oil-straight-from-the-horses-mouth/179627/32 "2003-06-05T00:10:29Z")
OK, so screw the _Guardian_. Fuck 'em. We don’t need bogus quotes, we got facts. And its ok to listen politely while the Usual Suspects give their righteous indignation a workout, they haven’t been winning many lately. ---
**Author:** ![The\_Calculus\_of\_Logic](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/aeb1de/32.png) [@The\_Calculus\_of\_Logic](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/The_Calculus_of_Logic)\ **Post date:** [June 5, 2003, 12:16am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/oil-straight-from-the-horses-mouth/179627/33 "2003-06-05T00:16:16Z")
> [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by jshore \* > \*\* > > Wow, with company like this, I feel better already! :rolleyes: > \*\* Don’t fret, unlike those countries, the US is the damn goodest country on earth, ever. We are gods apple and satans holy water. > [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by jshore \* > \*\* > And, who, pray tell, is going to be the judge of whether the U.S.'s actions back up its claims? Your statement of an “anti-US bias” sounds like a ready-made excuse to be rather selective in your sourcing. [This leaves aside the issue that judging the U.S.'s actions in this way seems to be precisely saying that the ends justify the means.] \*\* Well, i was stating that this wasn’t 50 years ago. 50 years ago when Stalin or Mao were starving massive populations, the media had no idea about it domestically or internationally. Even though domestic media is still kindof easy to control, the international media is so advanced and widespread with so many avenues of expression (the internet, books, newspapers, tv) that if the iraqi people are dying in droves the US wouldn’t be able to cover up for it the same way Stalin was able to cover up for the Ukranian famines 50 years ago. If/when something happens in Iraq, the world will know about it in a day because so many media outlets (some who want the US to look evil, like Al Jazerra or the guardian) will have access to events and a valid means of expressing their views. ---
**Author:** ![RTFirefly](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/c77e96/32.png) [@RTFirefly](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/RTFirefly)\ **Post date:** [June 5, 2003, 12:19am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/oil-straight-from-the-horses-mouth/179627/34 "2003-06-05T00:19:33Z")
> [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by manhattan \* > But the Guardian is a special case. Those guys misquoted [us! (Specifically, David B.)](http://www.guardian.co.uk/g2/story/0,3604,791222,00.html) (corrected a few days later after we complained). Stop relying on them. Read them (if you must) as you read the Inquirer, and wait until collaboration exists before associating yourself with them. Huh. I’d thought the Inquirer was a respectable newspaper. 😉 ---
**Author:** ![MMI](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/53a042/32.png) [@MMI](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/MMI)\ **Post date:** [June 5, 2003, 12:34am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/oil-straight-from-the-horses-mouth/179627/35 "2003-06-05T00:34:02Z")
I was under the understanding that Iraq as a country was destitute and poor post Gulf War I as a result of sanctions (indeed, some on this board cited that poverty and devastation as strong indicators that Iraq **must** have WMD’s, otherwise he certainly would have allowed inspectors to certify Iraq WMD). The potential wealth of Iraq is irrelevant if Iraq can’t sell enough oil. That both Iraq and North Korea have large armies and leaders who live in luxury is not an indicator of the wealth of the country as a whole. Unless Wolfowitz’s argument is that it was just too dang inconvenient to continue the blockade of Iraq. ---
**Author:** ![MMI](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/53a042/32.png) [@MMI](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/MMI)\ **Post date:** [June 5, 2003, 12:36am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/oil-straight-from-the-horses-mouth/179627/36 "2003-06-05T00:36:03Z")
Actually I guess in retrospect my response is irrelevant to the question of whether Wolfowitz said we attacked Iraq for oil. Whether or not his statements were honest and/or accurate I agree that the Guardian excerpts were misleading at best. ---
**Author:** ![Ben\_Hicks](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/bbce88/32.png) [@Ben\_Hicks](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Ben_Hicks)\ **Post date:** [June 5, 2003, 1:13am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/oil-straight-from-the-horses-mouth/179627/37 "2003-06-05T01:13:54Z")
What Paul Wolfowitz said was skillfully manipulated by a biased media organisation intent on washing over the truth with lies and distortions. Or, as the Guardian might put it: “\_\_\_\_\_ Paul Wolfowitz \_\_\_\_\_\_\_kill\_\_\_\_\_\_\_\_\_\_\_\_ed\_\_\_\_\_\_\_\_\_\_m\_\_\_\_\_o\_\_\_\_\_\_\_\_\_t\_\_\_\_\_\_\_\_\_\_\_\_\_\_\_\_\_\_h\_\_\_\_\_\_\_\_er \_t\_e\_\_r\_\_\_\_\_\_\_es\_a” What? What noise? I can’t hear any…oh, wait, you mean the moaning and the chanting and the thrashing about? Oh that’s just the sound of the ghost of journalistic integrity being exorcised. Nothing to bother yourself about. ---
**Author:** ![AHunter3](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/ahunter3/32/368_2.png) [@AHunter3](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/AHunter3)\ **Post date:** [June 5, 2003, 1:33am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/oil-straight-from-the-horses-mouth/179627/38 "2003-06-05T01:33:55Z")
Horse oil, huh? ---
**Author:** ![mrblue92](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/5daacb/32.png) [@mrblue92](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/mrblue92)\ **Post date:** [June 5, 2003, 3:33am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/oil-straight-from-the-horses-mouth/179627/39 "2003-06-05T03:33:41Z")
Yea, **AHunter**. Who needs that Middle Eastern stuff when we can get freshy-squeezed Appaloosa juice? ---
**Author:** ![Gyrate](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/gyrate/32/3588_2.png) [@Gyrate](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Gyrate)\ **Post date:** [June 5, 2003, 10:34am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/oil-straight-from-the-horses-mouth/179627/40 "2003-06-05T10:34:40Z")
> [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by The Calculus of Logic \* > \*\*(some who want the US to look evil, like Al Jazerra or the guardian) \*\* I hate to say this, but… _cite_? The Guardian may be a bunch of left-wing fuckwits, but I’m not sure “wanting the US to look evil” is part of their editorial policy, strictly speaking. And the Al-Jazeera coverage _I’ve_ seen has looked a lot less skewed that the rah-rah US television coverage (which is not to say that Al-Jazeera people don’t have their own biases). Just because some media outlets are reporting stories we don’t like doesn’t _automatically_ mean they’re lying and/or evil. [sub]Unless they’re owned by Rupert Murdoch, of course, in which case it’s a given. ;)[/sub] [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/oil-straight-from-the-horses-mouth/179627.md?page=1) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/oil-straight-from-the-horses-mouth/179627.md?page=3)