# OJ Simpson Murder Trial **URL:** \ **Category:** Great Debates\ **Created:** [July 20, 2015, 6:27pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/oj-simpson-murder-trial/725710 "2015-07-20T18:27:27Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 5
**Author:** ![Human\_Action](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/h/ac91a4/32.png) [@Human\_Action](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Human_Action)\ **Post date:** [July 21, 2015, 6:46pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/oj-simpson-murder-trial/725710/81 "2015-07-21T18:46:54Z")
> [@TennisMenace](#): > > I don’t think you read or dissected my words correctly. I said THAT (particular) jury at THAT (particular) time wanted to make a statement (obviously at that time…right after Rodney King). > > I do not see this as a GENERAL attack on an ethnic group. Come to think of it, I don’t see how the word “attack” is relevant either. > > OJ may have been found guilty with a different jury composition, this is undeniable, so we are not talking attack here, we are talking facts. Ask the jury selection experts on this case. After they presented their findings to you and recommended that you get as many Black women in the jury (you represent the defense), would you tell them that they are attacking an ethnic group through these findings? I don’t think so. > > See the difference? There’s a big difference between saying “a jury consultant concluded that more black women than white women had a view of domestic violence that was thought to be favorable to the defense”, and saying “the black jurors acquitted a man _they thought was guilty of two murders_, to make a political statement, and bullied the white jurors into going along with it.” ---
**Author:** ![Frank](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/f/3d9bf3/32.png) [@Frank](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Frank)\ **Post date:** [July 21, 2015, 7:04pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/oj-simpson-murder-trial/725710/82 "2015-07-21T19:04:50Z")
> [@YogSosoth](#): > > Tangential question: Do lawyers have the same voir dire effect on alternate jurors to remove them as they have when picking out an initial jury? Or do they just replace one dismissed juror with the next one on the list without any regard for any side’s preferences? Alternate jurors go through the same selection process, so they don’t need to be passed a second time. Some jurisdictions don’t select which jurors are the alternates until deliberations begin. ---
**Author:** ![Grotonian](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/g/c2a13f/32.png) [@Grotonian](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Grotonian)\ **Post date:** [July 21, 2015, 7:48pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/oj-simpson-murder-trial/725710/83 "2015-07-21T19:48:37Z")
> [@spifflog](#): > > My own tiny insight into this was when the verdict was read. There were about 10 of my employees in the break room watching. The majority of them were black. When the verdict was read, they cheered and high fived each other. I was amazed at the verdict (seems overwhelmingly clear to me that he killed them both) and I asked one of my (black) employees who I was very friendly with later that day what convinced him that OJ was innocent. > > His answer: “OJ killed them both.” > > I think he felt the way the jury felt. Shoes on the other foot now. Yeah, not just your work place, bars, dorm lounges, anywhere there were large numbers of people watching the verdict, whites were crestfallen–some white women cried, blacks cheered like they had just won the lottery. At my college, Michigan, white students, especially sorority girls, were sickened, while the black students were delighted. I think that speaks volumes about both. ---
**Author:** ![Fotheringay-Phipps](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/f/d9b06d/32.png) [@Fotheringay-Phipps](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Fotheringay-Phipps)\ **Post date:** [July 21, 2015, 7:51pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/oj-simpson-murder-trial/725710/84 "2015-07-21T19:51:31Z")
> [@Little\_Nemo](#): > > Those people who are saying this case was all about race, let me ask you a question: do you feel this was a typical outcome for a case in which a black man is accused of killing two white people? That there’s little point in putting black people on trial because juries will always find them innocent? If so, I have a bridge to sell you. In this case, the defense specifically played the race card, in claiming that racist white cops framed a black man. That rang true to a lot of black people, especially with the involvement of Mark Fuhrman. The fact that OJ was a black celebrity and his wife was a white women (white women married to black celebrities are frequently resented in the black community and by women specifically) played to this as well. Polls at the time showed a stark divergence of opinion between white people and black people as to OJ’s likely guilt. (Black opinion seems to have come around in recent years.) Denying that there was a racial angle to the case strains credulity. ---
**Author:** ![you\_with\_the\_face](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/y/ecccb3/32.png) [@you\_with\_the\_face](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/you_with_the_face)\ **Post date:** [July 21, 2015, 7:58pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/oj-simpson-murder-trial/725710/85 "2015-07-21T19:58:05Z")
> [@Fotheringay-Phipps](#): > > Polls at the time showed a stark divergence of opinion between white people and black people as to OJ’s likely guilt. \*\*(Black opinion seems to have come around in recent years.) \*\*Denying that there was a racial angle to the case strains credulity. So has white opinion. More white people have come to accept that the prosecution had major problems with its case. Of course there was a racial angle to this case. Perhaps the clearest example of this bias is the cavalier way in which this bias was assumed to be a black affliction rather than a black and white one. ---
**Author:** ![Fotheringay-Phipps](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/f/d9b06d/32.png) [@Fotheringay-Phipps](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Fotheringay-Phipps)\ **Post date:** [July 21, 2015, 8:15pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/oj-simpson-murder-trial/725710/86 "2015-07-21T20:15:57Z")
> [@you\_with\_the\_face](#): > > So has white opinion. More white people have come to accept that the prosecution had major problems with its case. > > Of course there was a racial angle to this case. Perhaps the clearest example of this bias is the cavalier way in which this bias was assumed to be a black affliction rather than a black and white one. I don’t know what you’re referring to in claiming “_more white people accept that the prosecution had had major problems with its case_” (OJ is guilty but the prosecution messed up? Actual doubt as to OJ’s guilt?) Either way, I am not aware of any major shifts in opinion, and if you mean the first of these then I don’t see the significance. Where black opinion has significantly shifted - and white opinion has not - is WRT the actual likelihood that OJ was guilty. From the Washington Post (in 2007): [Black Opinion on Simpson Shifts](http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-dyn/content/article/2007/09/26/AR2007092602351.html) > [@](#): > > A Washington Post survey found that 40 percent of black respondents believe he is innocent of the murders, compared with 71 percent who felt that way around the time Simpson was acquitted in 1995. The change in black opinion brings African American views of Simpson’s guilt closer to those of white people. In late 1995, 72 percent of white respondents said Simpson was guilty of murder, and 74 percent say they feel that way now. > > The 31-percentage-point drop among black respondents is a head-turner, sociologists said, because African Americans were such steadfast supporters of the celebrity, cheering in some places when the verdicts were read. ---
**Author:** ![you\_with\_the\_face](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/y/ecccb3/32.png) [@you\_with\_the\_face](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/you_with_the_face)\ **Post date:** [July 21, 2015, 8:40pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/oj-simpson-murder-trial/725710/87 "2015-07-21T20:40:30Z")
> [@Fotheringay-Phipps](#): > > I don’t know what you’re referring to in claiming “_more white people accept that the prosecution had had major problems with its case_” (OJ is guilty but the prosecution messed up? Actual doubt as to OJ’s guilt?) Either way, I am not aware of any major shifts in opinion, and if you mean the first of these then I don’t see the significance. More whites now blame the prosecution (and the LAPD) for OJ’s acquittal rather than vilifying the jury. Articles like this [one](http://www.pbs.org/wgbh/pages/frontline/oj/themes/prosecution.html), this [one](http://bigstory.ap.org/article/oj-simpson-case-taught-police-what-not-do), and this [one](http://www.crimemuseum.org/crime-library/forensic-investigation-of-the-oj-simpson-trial), and books like _Outrage_ reveal a major shift in “mainstream” thinking on this case. Twenty years ago, the prevailing opinion was that the acquittal was unjustified and the only people who believed otherwise were crazy, irrational, racist black people. Now, the discourse is more balanced and fact-based. I don’t understand why you can’t see the significance of this. ---
**Author:** ![Shodan](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/9f8e36/32.png) [@Shodan](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Shodan)\ **Post date:** [July 21, 2015, 9:00pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/oj-simpson-murder-trial/725710/88 "2015-07-21T21:00:27Z")
> [@you\_with\_the\_face](#): > > More whites now blame the prosecution (and the LAPD) for OJ’s acquittal rather than vilifying the jury. Could I see a cite for this? Some kind of a valid survey, for instance. TIA. Regards, Shodan ---
**Author:** ![Fotheringay-Phipps](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/f/d9b06d/32.png) [@Fotheringay-Phipps](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Fotheringay-Phipps)\ **Post date:** [July 21, 2015, 9:00pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/oj-simpson-murder-trial/725710/89 "2015-07-21T21:00:56Z")
> [@you\_with\_the\_face](#): > > More whites now blame the prosecution (and the LAPD) for OJ’s acquittal rather than vilifying the jury. Articles like this [one](http://www.pbs.org/wgbh/pages/frontline/oj/themes/prosecution.html), this [one](http://bigstory.ap.org/article/oj-simpson-case-taught-police-what-not-do), and this [one](http://www.crimemuseum.org/crime-library/forensic-investigation-of-the-oj-simpson-trial), and books like _Outrage_ reveal a major shift in “mainstream” thinking on this case. Twenty years ago, the prevailing opinion was that the acquittal was unjustified and the only people who believed otherwise were crazy, irrational, racist black people. Now, the discourse is more balanced and fact-based. I don’t agree that you’ve shown any shift in where white people put the blame, and you can’t show that type of thing from some articles. I remember quite a lot of criticism of the prosecution at the time of the trial. The fact that people think the prosecution messed up doesn’t mean that they don’t also think the jury did a terrible job and for racial reasons. I took a brief look at the first of your links and it does show a lot of commentators criticizing the prosecution, but one of their biggest criticisms was that they failed to appreciate that a jury of black women would be symphathetic to OJ for racial reasons. > [@](#): > > I don’t understand why you can’t see the significance of this. I don’t understand why you do. What’s the difference whose fault people think this verdict is? Bottom line is that people continue to think he’s as guilty as they ever thought he was. ---
**Author:** ![you\_with\_the\_face](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/y/ecccb3/32.png) [@you\_with\_the\_face](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/you_with_the_face)\ **Post date:** [July 21, 2015, 9:08pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/oj-simpson-murder-trial/725710/90 "2015-07-21T21:08:29Z")
> [@Shodan](#): > > Could I see a cite for this? Some kind of a valid survey, for instance. TIA. > > Regards, > Shodan How about I create a poll in IMHO then. My assertion comes from my own read on what people are saying now versus the past. ---
**Author:** ![you\_with\_the\_face](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/y/ecccb3/32.png) [@you\_with\_the\_face](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/you_with_the_face)\ **Post date:** [July 21, 2015, 9:15pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/oj-simpson-murder-trial/725710/91 "2015-07-21T21:15:08Z")
> [@Fotheringay-Phipps](#): > > I don’t understand why you do. What’s the difference whose fault people think this verdict is? Bottom line is that people continue to think he’s as guilty as they ever thought he was. Because my point has to do with racial bias affecting perceptions about the case, not consensus about OJ’s guilt. I believe white opinion has changed just as you believe black opinion has changed. FWIW, there has never been a shortage of black people who believed OJ committed murder. The biggest divergence between white and black has been in acceptance about the verdict. ---
**Author:** ![TennisMenace](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/f05b48/32.png) [@TennisMenace](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/TennisMenace)\ **Post date:** [July 21, 2015, 9:43pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/oj-simpson-murder-trial/725710/92 "2015-07-21T21:43:16Z")
> [@Human\_Action](#): > > There’s a big difference between saying “a jury consultant concluded that more black women than white women had a view of domestic violence that was thought to be favorable to the defense”, and saying “the black jurors acquitted a man _they thought was guilty of two murders_, to make a political statement, and bullied the white jurors into going along with it.” Well, this is why we are here on this thread debating this. I’m sure you read some brother here relate that when the news of not guilty was pronounced a bunch of black guys went crazy being so happy. When asked about it they said, “WE KNOW HE KILLED THEM, BUT …” I wonder if this is a consensus among black people at that time - OJ did it but we just don’t want him to pay for it. I’m thinking there are probably a good many who felt that way. Again, this trial came at the heel of Rodney King, so I’m sure that helped shape ones perspective on this trial. In light of the Rodney King trial and results, I’m interested in reading why you don’t think this jury was making a political statement? ---
**Author:** ![Fotheringay-Phipps](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/f/d9b06d/32.png) [@Fotheringay-Phipps](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Fotheringay-Phipps)\ **Post date:** [July 21, 2015, 9:46pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/oj-simpson-murder-trial/725710/93 "2015-07-21T21:46:40Z")
> [@you\_with\_the\_face](#): > > Because my point has to do with racial bias affecting perceptions about the case, not consensus about OJ’s guilt. I believe white opinion has changed just as you believe black opinion has changed. Even if I accepted your claims about white people’s opinions changing, I don’t see how that change has to do with “racial bias affecting perceptions of the case”. > [@](#): > > FWIW, there has never been a shortage of black people who believed OJ committed murder. Undoubtedly true, in that there are tens of millions of black people in this country, so even a small minority amounts to a lot of people. But as shown above, the overwhelming majority of black people at the time of the trial believed that OJ was not guilty. > [@](#): > > The biggest divergence between white and black has been in acceptance about the verdict. This is not correct, again as shown in the linked article above. ---
**Author:** ![DigitalC](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/ebca7d/32.png) [@DigitalC](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/DigitalC)\ **Post date:** [July 21, 2015, 9:48pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/oj-simpson-murder-trial/725710/94 "2015-07-21T21:48:56Z")
A lot of people really seem intent in turning this into a “black people being racist thing” when the case was mishandled at every single step. The jury came to the right verdict, even though OJ was guilty as sin the prosecution did not manage to prove it. ---
**Author:** ![TennisMenace](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/f05b48/32.png) [@TennisMenace](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/TennisMenace)\ **Post date:** [July 21, 2015, 10:22pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/oj-simpson-murder-trial/725710/95 "2015-07-21T22:22:43Z")
> [@Shodan](#): > > Could I see a cite for this? Some kind of a valid survey, for instance. TIA. > > Regards, > Shodan I also would like to know how you can have a 9 month trial and deliberate for just a few hours? It is pretty obvious that jury wanted no part of combing through the evidence or having any discussion. In fact, the first thing they did when they got in there was take a vote. It was 10-2. The two white women voted guilty. Stop there… Consider… 10 vote guilty- all black 2 vote not guilty- both white. So, why did the two white women vote guilty? If the prosecution sucked, and the cops were racist, and the chain of evidence was botched, and the glove didn’t fit…why did they vote guilty? Why did none of the black jurors vote guilty? What was the difference? ---
**Author:** ![TennisMenace](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/f05b48/32.png) [@TennisMenace](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/TennisMenace)\ **Post date:** [July 21, 2015, 10:26pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/oj-simpson-murder-trial/725710/96 "2015-07-21T22:26:19Z")
> [@DigitalC](#): > > A lot of people really seem intent in turning this into a “black people being racist thing” when the case was mishandled at every single step. The jury came to the right verdict, even though OJ was guilty as sin the prosecution did not manage to prove it. Is this what you want to believe? What evidence was lacking that you would have needed in order to convict him? ---
**Author:** ![andros](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/e480ec/32.png) [@andros](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/andros)\ **Post date:** [July 21, 2015, 10:59pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/oj-simpson-murder-trial/725710/97 "2015-07-21T22:59:49Z")
> [@TennisMenace](#): > > If the prosecution sucked, and the cops were racist, and the chain of evidence was botched, and the glove didn’t fit…why did they vote guilty? Why did none of the black jurors vote guilty? What was the difference? Is it remotely possible that their skin color and cultural background were irrelevant to their decision? Is it so hard to believe that two out of twelve found the prosecution’s arguments sufficient and ten did not? ETA: > [@](#): > > I also would like to know how you can have a 9 month trial and deliberate for just a few hours? Why on earth should deliberation time be proportional to the duration of a trial? Nine months, sure–but it was hardly non-stop cogent argument that the jury had to wade through and parse all at once. It was nine months of delay, a lot of showboating, a lot of procedural bullshit. I can easily see a situation in which the flaws of an argument are very clear by the end of nine months. . ---
**Author:** ![TennisMenace](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/f05b48/32.png) [@TennisMenace](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/TennisMenace)\ **Post date:** [July 21, 2015, 11:08pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/oj-simpson-murder-trial/725710/98 "2015-07-21T23:08:13Z")
> [@Fotheringay-Phipps](#): > > In this case, the defense specifically played the race card, in claiming that racist white cops framed a black man. That rang true to a lot of black people, especially with the involvement of Mark Fuhrman. I believe the race card, as played through Mark Fuhrman, was the knockout punch for OJ being acquitted. Now, here is my question to all. Okay, we know Fuhrman lied and used the N word in the past. So he lied. Should this lie negate his testimony regarding the case? I mean, he was the one who found the glove on Simpson’s estate. The glove was loaded with all three parties blood. This is huge. Yet it wasn’t with the jury. What was huge, or so it seemed, with the jury, was that Fuhrman lied and used the N word. Was this fair? Here is an excerpt from A lawyer commenting on the case: Well, the blood evidence didn’t evaporate. The blood evidence remained, and frankly, that was the core of the case. In Judge [Lance] Ito’s mind, in the mind of most people who were experienced with the criminal justice system, the blood evidence told the tale. The blood evidence connected the Bundy scene with the Rockingham scene in the form of the Bronco; Nicole’s blood, Ron’s blood and O.J.'s blood [was] found in the Bronco as well. Objectively, that chain of evidence was very, very compelling to those who were open to it. ---
**Author:** ![TennisMenace](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/f05b48/32.png) [@TennisMenace](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/TennisMenace)\ **Post date:** [July 21, 2015, 11:11pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/oj-simpson-murder-trial/725710/99 "2015-07-21T23:11:18Z")
> [@andros](#): > > Is it remotely possible that their skin color and cultural background were irrelevant to their decision? Is it so hard to believe that two out of twelve found the prosecution’s arguments sufficient and ten did not? > . Then please tell me why 72% of white people at that time believed OJ was guilty, while 71% of black people at that time believed he was NOT guilty? Why the huge discrepancy? ---
**Author:** ![andros](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/e480ec/32.png) [@andros](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/andros)\ **Post date:** [July 21, 2015, 11:18pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/oj-simpson-murder-trial/725710/100 "2015-07-21T23:18:44Z")
I’m sorry, I honestly don’t see the connection. I think you’re begging the question that such a connection exists. Twelve people in a courtroom see and hear very different things than the general populace. They are given explicit instructions (with the caveat that I absolutely question Ito’s competence in that trial), and they hear the testimony in a very different way. The answer to your second question, IMO, is “an ongoing pattern of systematic oppression and institutionalized racism.” Were the members of the jury, and their decision, also affected by that? Maybe. But not necessarily. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/oj-simpson-murder-trial/725710.md?page=4) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/oj-simpson-murder-trial/725710.md?page=6)