# OK...Ashcroft has finally gone completely off the deep end... **URL:** \ **Category:** The BBQ Pit\ **Created:** [November 9, 2001, 6:21pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/ok-ashcroft-has-finally-gone-completely-off-the-deep-end/92481 "2001-11-09T18:21:34Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 18\ **Page:** 1
**Author:** ![Jonathan\_Chance](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/jonathan_chance/32/701_2.png) [@Jonathan\_Chance](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Jonathan_Chance)\ **Post date:** [November 9, 2001, 6:21pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/ok-ashcroft-has-finally-gone-completely-off-the-deep-end/92481/1 "2001-11-09T18:21:34Z")
Any civil libertarians out there? How about just folks who like the constitution the way it is? From today’s Washington Post: [US Will Monitor Calls To Lawyers](http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-dyn/articles/A64663-2001Nov8.html) Included are these juicy tidbits: > [@](#): > > Attorney General John D. Ashcroft approved the eavesdropping rule on an emergency basis last week, without the usual waiting period for public comment. or > [@](#): > > According to a summary published in the Federal Register Oct. 31, the monitoring will be conducted without a court order whenever the attorney general certifies “that reasonable suspicion exists to believe that an inmate may use communications with attorneys or their agents to facilitate acts of terrorism.” Look, if you know me at all you know I’m no knee-jerk Bush hater. Bush wasn’t my first choice and neither was Gore. The United States has placed combatting terrorism on the front burner (justifiably so, IMHO) but really…this is too much. How long do we permit this? How long until we’re forced to cry, “TO YOUR TENTS, O ISRAEL!” Or…if I’m permitted to use a Schoolhouse Rock quote: “If your government won’t give you your basic rights you better get another government.” This one shakes me, folks. This one shakes me. ---
**Author:** ![gobear](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/g/8dc957/32.png) [@gobear](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/gobear)\ **Post date:** [November 9, 2001, 6:30pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/ok-ashcroft-has-finally-gone-completely-off-the-deep-end/92481/2 "2001-11-09T18:30:23Z")
Is anybody really surprised that Ashcroft would pull a stunt like this? The man clearly despises civil liberties and is willing to trample over the Constitution to attain his ends. His boss signed the USA Patriot Act which, according to the same article “gives the government a freer hand to conduct searches, detain or deport suspects, eavesdrop on Internet communications, monitor financial transactions and obtain electronic records on individuals.” The Feds are holding more than 1,200 people in custody, many of whom have not been charged with any crime, have not been allowed to see a lawyer, and are being held incommunicado. Whatever happened to writ of habeas corpus in this country? ---
**Author:** ![Daowajan](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/3bc359/32.png) [@Daowajan](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Daowajan)\ **Post date:** [November 9, 2001, 6:32pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/ok-ashcroft-has-finally-gone-completely-off-the-deep-end/92481/3 "2001-11-09T18:32:31Z")
Let me guess… Ashcroft? ---
**Author:** ![k.os](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/k/e0b2c6/32.png) [@k.os](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/k.os)\ **Post date:** [November 9, 2001, 6:43pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/ok-ashcroft-has-finally-gone-completely-off-the-deep-end/92481/4 "2001-11-09T18:43:55Z")
> [@](#): > > The Feds are holding more than 1,200 people in custody, many of whom have not been charged with any crime, have not been allowed to see a lawyer, and are being held incommunicado. Whatever happened to writ of habeas corpus in this country? An answer I keep hearing various people making on CNN is that a lot of these people are in the US illegally and so don’t have the rights of Americans. I don’t like that answer, since there is no way to be sure that they are only holding illegal aliens, and even if they are, they shouldn’t be holding them indefinitely like that. ---
**Author:** ![Jonathan\_Chance](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/jonathan_chance/32/701_2.png) [@Jonathan\_Chance](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Jonathan_Chance)\ **Post date:** [November 9, 2001, 6:48pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/ok-ashcroft-has-finally-gone-completely-off-the-deep-end/92481/5 "2001-11-09T18:48:54Z")
I’m pretty certain that habeas corpus applies even to those in the US illegally. Give them a speedy trial and zing them over the side. ---
**Author:** ![gobear](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/g/8dc957/32.png) [@gobear](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/gobear)\ **Post date:** [November 9, 2001, 6:49pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/ok-ashcroft-has-finally-gone-completely-off-the-deep-end/92481/6 "2001-11-09T18:49:03Z")
> [@](#): > > An answer I keep hearing various people making on CNN is that a lot of these people are in the US illegally and so don’t have the rights of Americans That sounds a lot more like Fox News than CNN. I can’t believe any intelligent person would make that argument. IM not so HO, the protections of the Constitution apply to every person accused of a crime in the USA, not just citizens. ---
**Author:** ![magdalene](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/df788c/32.png) [@magdalene](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/magdalene)\ **Post date:** [November 9, 2001, 6:54pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/ok-ashcroft-has-finally-gone-completely-off-the-deep-end/92481/7 "2001-11-09T18:54:27Z")
I started a GD thread about this this morning. Get thee up there! ---
**Author:** ![december](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/838e76/32.png) [@december](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/december)\ **Post date:** [November 9, 2001, 6:57pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/ok-ashcroft-has-finally-gone-completely-off-the-deep-end/92481/8 "2001-11-09T18:57:50Z")
> [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by gobear \* > \*\*The Feds are holding more than 1,200 people in custody, many of whom have not been charged with any crime, have not been allowed to see a lawyer, and are being held incommunicado. Whatever happened to writ of habeas corpus in this country? \*\* I’ve heard this comment, too, but I’m not sure it’s accurate. First of all, note the verbal slight-of-hand. On a quick reading it seems to say that those incommunicado and without lawyers number around 1200. Actually, the statement gives no estimates for these cases, just “many.” I heard this comment debated pro and con on The O’Reilly Factor. Both sides agreed that over 1000 people had been picked up. The civil libertarian was unable to back up the allegations regarding lack of representation. All she said was, “They _may_ not have had access to lawyers.” The other guest said that a large number of these people had already been released. She also said that almost all of these people were not US citizens, and it was legal to hold foreign visitors for some specified period of time, without the habeus corpus rights that apply to Americans. ---
**Author:** ![gobear](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/g/8dc957/32.png) [@gobear](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/gobear)\ **Post date:** [November 9, 2001, 7:17pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/ok-ashcroft-has-finally-gone-completely-off-the-deep-end/92481/9 "2001-11-09T19:17:34Z")
**December** if you’ll read this [story](http://www.washingtonpost.com/ac2/wp-dyn?pagename=article&node=&contentId=A59466-2001Oct14) from _The Washington Post_, you’ll see that men are being held indefinitely with no charges filed against them. > [@](#): > > They have no contact with each other or their families and **limited access to their lawyers** (bolding mine). Their names appear on no federal jail log available to the public. No records can be found in any court docket in New York showing why they are detained, who represents them or the status of their cases. Ashcroft was quoted as saying they are being held as possible material witnesses, but the statue is so vague that it amounts to being a US version of _lettres de cachet_. > [@](#): > > During his arrest, [Yazeed]Al-Salmi was denied contact with family and had a few, brief visits from his attorney, Randall B. Hamud… Hamud said that his clients repeatedly asked to contact him during their time in federal custody but that the requests were denied. > > They “had asked time and again to call me and they were not allowed to do so,” Hamud said. “Law school doesn’t prepare you for this.” I am sure if Ashcroft suspended elections and Bush were declared President-for-Life, **December** would find some rationalization to approve it. ---
**Author:** ![december](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/838e76/32.png) [@december](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/december)\ **Post date:** [November 9, 2001, 7:48pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/ok-ashcroft-has-finally-gone-completely-off-the-deep-end/92481/10 "2001-11-09T19:48:56Z")
> [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by gobear \* > \*\*I am sure if Ashcroft suspended elections and Bush were declared President-for-Life, **December** would find some rationalization to approve it. \*\* **Gobear** , your earlier post said that 1200 people were being held, many _incommunicado_ and _without access to lawyers._ I politely questioned the accuracy of the report. I purposely mentioned that I had heard a similar report in order to make it clear that you were not being personally attacked. In reply, your cite described people who _have had access to lawyers_, which means that they \* weren’t incommunicado.\* Your post also alludes to a “vague statute.” I take that to mean that there i]is\* a statute, i.e., the government is operating legally, even though you disapprove of that particular law. Your cite said the number of people held was “unknown,” rather than 1200. So, I was right to question the accuracy of your earlier post. That’s no big deal. Most posters occasionally make exaggerated or unsubstantiated claims, even me. But, where do you come off taking a shot at me? I get enough grief when I’m wrong. How about an apology? ---
**Author:** ![Tranquilis](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/tranquilis/32/3639_2.png) [@Tranquilis](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Tranquilis)\ **Post date:** [November 9, 2001, 8:01pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/ok-ashcroft-has-finally-gone-completely-off-the-deep-end/92481/11 "2001-11-09T20:01:16Z")
[S1510](http://boards.straightdope.com/sdmb/showthread.php?threadid=92456). :mad: Normally I’m a Centrist, but when the Gov’t starts shifting this far, I become, by default, a Liberal. when the Gov’t finally gets it’s ass kicked on this, I’ll be a centrist again. Hopefully. ---
**Author:** ![gobear](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/g/8dc957/32.png) [@gobear](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/gobear)\ **Post date:** [November 9, 2001, 8:45pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/ok-ashcroft-has-finally-gone-completely-off-the-deep-end/92481/12 "2001-11-09T20:45:57Z")
> [@](#): > > But, where do you come off taking a shot at me? I get enough grief when I’m wrong. How about an apology You’re right, that was completely unjustified. I apologize. ---
**Author:** ![Stoid](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/stoid/32/272_2.png) [@Stoid](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Stoid)\ **Post date:** [November 9, 2001, 11:37pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/ok-ashcroft-has-finally-gone-completely-off-the-deep-end/92481/13 "2001-11-09T23:37:35Z")
> [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by Jonathan Chance \* > \*\* > > Look, if you know me at all you know I’m no knee-jerk Bush hater. > \*\* Well, everyone knows I am. And with each passing day, my jerking knee points directly at very disturbing truths that make hating him (and worse, \*\* fearing \*\* him) an increasingly justifiable response. Sometimes being proven right is the last thing one wants to be. stoid ---
**Author:** ![Guinastasia](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/guinastasia/32/5751_2.png) [@Guinastasia](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Guinastasia)\ **Post date:** [November 10, 2001, 12:06am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/ok-ashcroft-has-finally-gone-completely-off-the-deep-end/92481/14 "2001-11-10T00:06:53Z")
I think Bush should’ve have maybe considered the fact that Ashcroft lost to a DEAD GUY for crissakes!!! ---
**Author:** ![schplebordnik](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/91b2a8/32.png) [@schplebordnik](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/schplebordnik)\ **Post date:** [November 10, 2001, 2:44am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/ok-ashcroft-has-finally-gone-completely-off-the-deep-end/92481/15 "2001-11-10T02:44:48Z")
“An answer I keep hearing various people making on CNN is that a lot of these people are in the US illegally and so don’t have the rights of Americans.” Um, wrong. U.S. Supremes established in the 80s that Bill of Rights apply to non-citizens. The 1880s. Back when they were establishing separate but equal, they still were liberal enough to know that it was totally bogus to say if you didn’t have a passport, government didn’t have to give you any rights. Ashcroft’s a Nazi. Just look what he’s doing trying to circumvent the twice voted-in, and affirmed by Supremes, Oregon assisted suicide law. Since it offends his personal religious convictions, he thinks he can use his political position to block it. ---
**Author:** ![Bricker](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/977dab/32.png) [@Bricker](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Bricker)\ **Post date:** [November 10, 2001, 3:30am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/ok-ashcroft-has-finally-gone-completely-off-the-deep-end/92481/16 "2001-11-10T03:30:39Z")
I am not at all in favor of this latest initiative. As I mentioned somewhere, in a response that seems to have vanished, or possibly is in another thread, when an attorney is the subject of a search warrant, the courts will appoint a special master to ensure that the items relating to client representation seized are not all seen by law enforcement - the master reviews the material first, and passes on only what’s relevant and responsive. I don’t see a way to do this with phone monitoring, since even the team that’s “in the middle” will be law enforcement, not a judically appointed master. I don’t like this one. That said: **schplebordnik** , you contempible moron, this is a far cry from the crimes of the Nazi regime. Don’t you dare compare the murder of millions to the wiretapping of phones. I promise you, you ignorant fool, that every one of the Jews, gypsys, Catholics, homosexuals, and others that died at the hands of the Nazis would have happily chosen to live if all they had to do was put up with their phone calls from prison being monitored! How DARE you compare these things? Jerk. I don’t want my dislike for this particular anti-terrorism initiative to get lost in my greater dislike for the use of the word ‘Nazi’ as applied to anything other than a Nazi. Ashcroft’s latest is bad, no doubt there at all. - Rick ---
**Author:** ![schplebordnik](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/91b2a8/32.png) [@schplebordnik](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/schplebordnik)\ **Post date:** [November 10, 2001, 3:36am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/ok-ashcroft-has-finally-gone-completely-off-the-deep-end/92481/17 "2001-11-10T03:36:40Z")
And where exactly did I say that Ashcroft was perpetuating the Holocaust? So, if I call you a “Democrat,” that means you support Jim Crow and oppose anti-lynching, since those were at one time fundamental planks in that party’s platforms? You, my friend, are the moron… ---
**Author:** ![Typo\_Negative](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/typo_negative/32/484_2.png) [@Typo\_Negative](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Typo_Negative)\ **Post date:** [November 10, 2001, 4:37am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/ok-ashcroft-has-finally-gone-completely-off-the-deep-end/92481/18 "2001-11-10T04:37:23Z")
[QUOTE] \*Originally posted by Jonathan Chance \* \*\* > [@](#): > > According to a summary published in the Federal Register Oct. 31, the monitoring will be conducted without a court order whenever the attorney general certifies “that reasonable suspicion exists to believe that an inmate may use communications with attorneys or their agents to facilitate acts of terrorism.”\*\* If the attorney is helping to facilitate an ongoing criminal enterprise, then there is no attorney/client priviledge IIRC. However, I am chilled by the fact that it is the attorney general who would decide what reasonable suspicion is. If they have reasonble suspicion, they should do some investigatin’ and come up with probable cause and get a warrant. Maybe one of you lawyers could answer this hypothetical for me. Suspect X is talking with his lawyer and describes a crime involving 3rd party Y. Their conversation is being recorded by the AG. Now, the government cannot use the recording against X because of attorney/client priviledge. But can they use the recording against 3rd party Y?