# Ok atheists, settle the fuck down. **URL:** \ **Category:** The BBQ Pit\ **Created:** [January 15, 2009, 2:10am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/ok-atheists-settle-the-fuck-down/481366 "2009-01-15T02:10:48Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 11
**Author:** ![Lightnin](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/lightnin/32/180_2.png) [@Lightnin](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Lightnin)\ **Post date:** [January 15, 2009, 7:19pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/ok-atheists-settle-the-fuck-down/481366/201 "2009-01-15T19:19:13Z")
> [@mswas](#): > > What percentage of atheists that you know would you say are Pro-Life? Boy, look at them goalposts move! > [@mswas](#): > > That doesn’t matter because they would still tell you that those things are wrong, whether they do them or not. So you agree that religion doesn’t affect morals. Saying something is wrong, but still doing it, is not a good example of moral behavior. It’s actually called “hypocrisy”. > [@mswas](#): > > Arguing that you can’t trust anyone to be consistent in their beliefs isn’t a good line of reasoning here. People voted for Eliot Spitzer not knowing that he’d leave office in disgrace. We don’t vote for people based on what secrets they harbor in the dark of their hearts, we vote for them based on what they profess to believe. And including SHMG is forcing all subsequent oathtakers to also include SHMG. Because we can only judge people by their actions and words, you’re demanding that our politicians either agree with your religion, or lie. ---
**Author:** ![Bosstone](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/22d042/32.png) [@Bosstone](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Bosstone)\ **Post date:** [January 15, 2009, 7:22pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/ok-atheists-settle-the-fuck-down/481366/202 "2009-01-15T19:22:20Z")
> [@mswas](#): > > Are you worried that Obama is going to impose his religion on the state? Actually, no. **Lightnin’** is the one who’s upset with Obama. As I said earlier, I couldn’t care less. “So help me God” is a non-issue to me. What I do care about are people who think atheists and other non-Christians are less American or moral and won’t vote for someone who’s not Christian. ---
**Author:** ![mswas](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/e99b99/32.png) [@mswas](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/mswas)\ **Post date:** [January 15, 2009, 7:23pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/ok-atheists-settle-the-fuck-down/481366/203 "2009-01-15T19:23:48Z")
> [@Lightnin](#): > > Boy, look at them goalposts move! So you don’t think that there is a fundamental difference in moral philosophy between you and Pat Robertson then? > [@](#): > > So you agree that religion doesn’t affect morals. Saying something is wrong, but still doing it, is not a good example of moral behavior. It’s actually called “hypocrisy”. No I don’t agree with that at all. Hypocrisy has no impact on the commonly held moral beliefs of a community. It doesn’t change what people believe just because some of them act hypocritically. > [@](#): > > And including SHMG is forcing all subsequent oathtakers to also include SHMG. Because we can only judge people by their actions and words, you’re demanding that our politicians either agree with your religion, or lie. You’re requiring that they not make an expression of faith based upon the hypothetical impact on hypothetical future people. ---
**Author:** ![Jack\_Batty](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/jack_batty/32/3201_2.png) [@Jack\_Batty](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Jack_Batty)\ **Post date:** [January 15, 2009, 7:24pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/ok-atheists-settle-the-fuck-down/481366/204 "2009-01-15T19:24:44Z")
> [@mswas](#): > > Just like a good culture warrior you are lockstep with the opinion that everyone holds…its the other guy’s fault. In that you are definitely part of the same wider culture as the Christian fundamentalist. You refer to me as a “culture warrior” (yet another potential Bill O’Reilly trademark) and you accuse me of being in lock-step? It’s not a question of fault? Who came up with the term “War on Christmas” and why? It wasn’t atheists. It was Christians pissed off that they weren’t getting their way. ---
**Author:** ![artemis](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/91b2a8/32.png) [@artemis](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/artemis)\ **Post date:** [January 15, 2009, 7:24pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/ok-atheists-settle-the-fuck-down/481366/205 "2009-01-15T19:24:50Z")
> [@mswas](#): > > This is a statement of ideology in and of itself. Of course. It also happens to be the ideology on which this country’s government is based. Too bad the Religious Right keeps forgetting that. ---
**Author:** ![mswas](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/e99b99/32.png) [@mswas](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/mswas)\ **Post date:** [January 15, 2009, 7:27pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/ok-atheists-settle-the-fuck-down/481366/206 "2009-01-15T19:27:05Z")
> [@Bosstone](#): > > Actually, no. **Lightnin’** is the one who’s upset with Obama. As I said earlier, I couldn’t care less. “So help me God” is a non-issue to me. What I do care about are people who think atheists and other non-Christians are less American or moral and won’t vote for someone who’s not Christian. You asked when Christians were going to remember that. I asked about Obama because my answer would be January 20th. I don’t think atheists are less moral, but that they have a different idea of morality. I don’t see it as a linear up/down scale but more of a lateral two-dimensional one. Your zone of commitment is different. Personally I don’t go out seeking to find out the religious beliefs of my political candidates, but their beliefs do impact how I will vote. I have not knowingly voted for or against an atheist. I have knowingly voted for Christians and Jews. ---
**Author:** ![mswas](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/e99b99/32.png) [@mswas](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/mswas)\ **Post date:** [January 15, 2009, 7:28pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/ok-atheists-settle-the-fuck-down/481366/207 "2009-01-15T19:28:16Z")
> [@artemis](#): > > Of course. It also happens to be the ideology on which this country’s government is based. Too bad the Religious Right keeps forgetting that. No, that is not what our country is based off of. You are making a fundamental mistake about the establishment clause. It’s about an official state religion, and that’s it. It doesn’t say Politicians somehow become this perfect amoral being that is merely a metaphysical conduit for the pure will of the people. ---
**Author:** ![Maeglin](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/8baadc/32.png) [@Maeglin](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Maeglin)\ **Post date:** [January 15, 2009, 7:28pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/ok-atheists-settle-the-fuck-down/481366/208 "2009-01-15T19:28:35Z")
> [@mswas](#): > > Do you really feel that saying, “bless you”, is some sort of method of exclusion? > > I mean there is the reality that none of us is part of all aspects of the culture. It depends on the context. I am perfectly used to hearing someone say “bless you” when I sneeze. If someone says “bless you” when I finish a financial transaction, I would be taken aback. The former is commonplace. I am going to go out on a limb here and say that the latter is only found in communities that are already quite religious. I don’t particularly like it, but it is nothing to make an issue about. After all, it might be perfectly commonplace where I am, and when in Rome. The bigger issue is not being blessed at the bodega but watching your president go to church and celebrating it as some sort of collective American experience. I personally find that distasteful. I also tend to find most American expressions of religion in general to be distasteful, but that is more of an aesthetic judgment than anything else. It is not easy to separate the aesthetics from politics with me, though. I am obviously not looking to participate in all aspects of all cultures. You know me better than that. But religion/irrelegion is such a sharp dividing line in most parts of this country. Being on the wrong side of that line in most places is not a great place to be. ---
**Author:** ![mswas](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/e99b99/32.png) [@mswas](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/mswas)\ **Post date:** [January 15, 2009, 7:29pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/ok-atheists-settle-the-fuck-down/481366/209 "2009-01-15T19:29:58Z")
> [@Jack\_Batty](#): > > You refer to me as a “culture warrior” (yet another potential Bill O’Reilly trademark) and you accuse me of being in lock-step? How old are you that you think that things that go back decades were coined by Bill O’Reilly? > [@](#): > > It’s not a question of fault? Who came up with the term “War on Christmas” and why? It wasn’t atheists. It was Christians pissed off that they weren’t getting their way. So what matters to you is who came up with the term, and not the actual issue that the term is used to describe? Do you think that suddenly out of the blue someone got offended for the first time in 2006 and Bill O’Reilly reported on it? ---
**Author:** ![Bosstone](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/22d042/32.png) [@Bosstone](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Bosstone)\ **Post date:** [January 15, 2009, 7:30pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/ok-atheists-settle-the-fuck-down/481366/210 "2009-01-15T19:30:16Z")
> [@mswas](#): > > You asked when Christians were going to remember that. I asked about Obama because my answer would be January 20th. Go look at gravitycrash who insisted that this is a Christian nation. He’s far from alone in that thought. There’s plenty of folk out there who’d be perfectly happy with a theocracy as long as it was a Christian theocracy. ---
**Author:** ![Sarahfeena](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/sarahfeena/32/519_2.png) [@Sarahfeena](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Sarahfeena)\ **Post date:** [January 15, 2009, 7:31pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/ok-atheists-settle-the-fuck-down/481366/211 "2009-01-15T19:31:33Z")
> [@Lightnin](#): > > And he won’t get elected. THAT’S the freakin’ problem! But it’s not Barack Obama’s fault. > [@](#): > > YES. My President is, basically, my employee. I don’t care what he does in his private life, as long as he does his job. > > I’m not saying he can’t go to church- but he can’t endorse a particular religion by power of his office. He can go to church- but why the heck invite the media? There needs to be a sharp dividing line between church and state- otherwise, atheists (and other non-Christians) will always have a harder time getting elected. The media doesn’t have to be invited to stand on the street in front of the church and show the President walking in, which is what they usually do. He may be your employee, but he is also a person with his own opinions, beliefs, and feelings. If you don’t want to be told by YOUR employer how to express your belief or non-belief, then maybe you should realize that he might not want that, either. ---
**Author:** ![artemis](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/91b2a8/32.png) [@artemis](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/artemis)\ **Post date:** [January 15, 2009, 7:33pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/ok-atheists-settle-the-fuck-down/481366/212 "2009-01-15T19:33:34Z")
> [@mswas](#): > > The difference is more fundamental than the difference between various forms of Judaism and Christianity. Devout Jews would probably disagree; the ones I’ve met all think the distinction between Christianity and Judaism is every bit as fundamental. They see Christians as polytheists. Members of various Christian sects seem to take their differences pretty seriously, too. In the past, people have fought and died over those supposedly ‘less fundamental’ differences. (Something all too many Christians in this country seem to forget.) ---
**Author:** ![mswas](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/e99b99/32.png) [@mswas](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/mswas)\ **Post date:** [January 15, 2009, 7:34pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/ok-atheists-settle-the-fuck-down/481366/213 "2009-01-15T19:34:18Z")
> [@Maeglin](#): > > It depends on the context. I am perfectly used to hearing someone say “bless you” when I sneeze. Right. > [@](#): > > If someone says “bless you” when I finish a financial transaction, I would be taken aback. The former is commonplace. I am going to go out on a limb here and say that the latter is only found in communities that are already quite religious. I don’t particularly like it, but it is nothing to make an issue about. After all, it might be perfectly commonplace where I am, and when in Rome. That’s about my view on it. > [@](#): > > The bigger issue is not being blessed at the bodega but watching your president go to church and celebrating it as some sort of collective American experience. I personally find that distasteful. I also tend to find most American expressions of religion in general to be distasteful, but that is more of an aesthetic judgment than anything else. **It is not easy to separate the aesthetics from politics with me, though.** Yeah, I understand that actually. > [@](#): > > I am obviously not looking to participate in all aspects of all cultures. You know me better than that. But religion/irrelegion is such a sharp dividing line in most parts of this country. Being on the wrong side of that line in most places is not a great place to be. Sure, that’s true, but it seems to me that there is becoming more of a culture where being religious is looked down upon. I have been in groups where defending Christianity is looked down upon, at this point in my life as often (seemingly) as it has been the reverse. In New York ridiculing Christianity is actually a pretty common occurrence, you hear it at dinner, in the bar, amongst activist groups, on the street, etc… It has become perfectly culturally acceptable to make fun of those stupid religious people, nevermind that many of them are listening to people ridicule them a few feet away. ---
**Author:** ![mswas](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/e99b99/32.png) [@mswas](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/mswas)\ **Post date:** [January 15, 2009, 7:35pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/ok-atheists-settle-the-fuck-down/481366/214 "2009-01-15T19:35:31Z")
> [@Bosstone](#): > > Go look at gravitycrash who insisted that this is a Christian nation. He’s far from alone in that thought. There’s plenty of folk out there who’d be perfectly happy with a theocracy as long as it was a Christian theocracy. I know, I talk to them online daily. They are not a majority opinion, even on the message boards we both frequent. ---
**Author:** ![mswas](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/e99b99/32.png) [@mswas](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/mswas)\ **Post date:** [January 15, 2009, 7:36pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/ok-atheists-settle-the-fuck-down/481366/215 "2009-01-15T19:36:48Z")
> [@artemis](#): > > Devout Jews would probably disagree; the ones I’ve met all think the distinction between Christianity and Judaism is every bit as fundamental. They see Christians as polytheists. Members of various Christian sects seem to take their differences pretty seriously, too. In the past, people have fought and died over those supposedly ‘less fundamental’ differences. (Something all too many Christians in this country seem to forget.) In my experience Jews prefer that you at least believe in God, even if it is in an erroneous fashion. ---
**Author:** ![Der\_Trihs](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/der_trihs/32/233_2.png) [@Der\_Trihs](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Der_Trihs)\ **Post date:** [January 15, 2009, 7:40pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/ok-atheists-settle-the-fuck-down/481366/216 "2009-01-15T19:40:53Z")
> [@mswas](#): > > :rolleyes: Meanwhile, back in reality… > > I personally feel oppressed because there aren’t very many men with long hair in office, and I have long hair that I’d have to cut if I wanted to run for office. Is long hair a belief system ? One that calls for the destruction of all others and has a long history of doing just that ? > [@mswas](#): > > [QUOTE=Ethilrist] > Some people think we’re just a few bad administrations away from another Inquisition, and they don’t want to be on the wrong side of one. Yes, I think that’s a paranoid delusion. Even the pious aren’t that pious in my experience. They feel every bit as besieged by atheist culture as atheists feel besieged by their culture. [/QUOTE] As pointed out, that’s ridiculous - a typical Christian persecution fantasy. And it’s not at all irrational to fear something like a new Inquisition; this country is full of people who’d like to indulge in oppression and brutality and murder towards unbelievers and sinners. And they already do, when they can get away with it. > [@LonesomePolecat](#): > > [QUOTE=Brown Eyed Girl] > Why is it so shocking that some people find religious expressions distasteful? Because it indicates malicious small-mindedness that looks for petty excuses to take offense. [/QUOTE] Yes, that is the mindset of the typical believer . . . oh, you meant the other guy. One reason that atheists tend to be nervous around people who flaunt their religion, is that they often are examples of “malicious small-mindedness that looks for petty excuses to take offense”. > [@mswas](#): > > Because Islam is a totalitarian faith that doesn’t have within it the idea of a separation of powers between the religion and the state, and I don’t believe that Sharia is compatible with a Western style democracy. Just like Christianity, you mean ? Democracy and the separation of powers and so on all require that someone be willing to ignore the demands of such intolerant, totalitarian religions. Civilized behavior in general begins with the rejection of religious values, however much people feel obligated to spout how Christian or whatever they are. And I see no reason that an American born, American cultured Muslim is less likely to value such things as the seperation of church and state than an American born, American cultured Christian. Quite likely he’d be MORE likely to respect such principles than a member of the faith that has overwhelming power in this country. He knows what’s it’s like on the unpopular side. ---
**Author:** ![artemis](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/91b2a8/32.png) [@artemis](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/artemis)\ **Post date:** [January 15, 2009, 7:45pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/ok-atheists-settle-the-fuck-down/481366/217 "2009-01-15T19:45:14Z")
> [@mswas](#): > > No, that is not what our country is based off of. You are making a fundamental mistake about the establishment clause. It’s about an official state religion, and that’s it. Wrong. Go read the Constitution. See where it mentions God. (Hint: it occurs in EXACTLY one place: the phrase “In the Year of Our Lord”. A friggin’ DATE!) Do you honestly think that ommission was accidental? The Founding Fathers knew precisely what they were doing when they left all mention of the Deity out of the foundational governing document of this country. The government of this country was explicitly designed to be SECULAR. That doesn’t mean only non-religious people can hold public office. It does mean they should refrain from inappropriately inserting religious beliefs into official government actions, which is what Justice Roberts would be doing if he inserts the phrase “So Help me God” into the official Presidential oath of office. > [@](#): > > It doesn’t say Politicians somehow become this perfect amoral being that is merely a metaphysical conduit for the pure will of the people. No one is demanding that. Politicians should be free to believe what they wish. They should not, however, act in ways that imply their personal religious beliefs represent the beliefs of the wider polity. ---
**Author:** ![Maeglin](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/8baadc/32.png) [@Maeglin](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Maeglin)\ **Post date:** [January 15, 2009, 7:49pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/ok-atheists-settle-the-fuck-down/481366/218 "2009-01-15T19:49:42Z")
> [@mswas](#): > > Sure, that’s true, but it seems to me that there is becoming more of a culture where being religious is looked down upon. I have been in groups where defending Christianity is looked down upon, at this point in my life as often (seemingly) as it has been the reverse. In New York ridiculing Christianity is actually a pretty common occurrence, you hear it at dinner, in the bar, amongst activist groups, on the street, etc… It has become perfectly culturally acceptable to make fun of those stupid religious people, nevermind that many of them are listening to people ridicule them a few feet away. That’s because we are in the Bubble. Good luck overhearing the same conversation thirty miles north of here. It is culturally acceptable only in an extremely small geography and among an extremely narrow subset of people. I certain’t couldn’t get away with that at work. One of the people I work with totes her Bible Answer Man mug everywhere she goes. I also started going to a Jewish bible study group with a colleague, curiously enough. I think if I told any of them I am a nonbeliever, their heads would explode. ---
**Author:** ![mswas](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/e99b99/32.png) [@mswas](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/mswas)\ **Post date:** [January 15, 2009, 7:53pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/ok-atheists-settle-the-fuck-down/481366/219 "2009-01-15T19:53:26Z")
> [@artemis](#): > > Wrong. Go read the Constitution. See where it mentions God. (Hint: it occurs in EXACTLY one place: the phrase “In the Year of Our Lord”. A friggin’ DATE!) Do you honestly think that ommission was accidental? The Founding Fathers knew precisely what they were doing when they left all mention of the Deity out of the foundational governing document of this country. > > The government of this country was explicitly designed to be SECULAR. That doesn’t mean only non-religious people can hold public office. It does mean they should refrain from inappropriately inserting religious beliefs into official government actions, which is what Justice Roberts would be doing if he inserts the phrase “So Help me God” into the official Presidential oath of office. I disagree with your definition of secular. Secular =/= atheist. The government cannot establish a religion, but that doesn’t mean that politicians can’t be religious. > [@](#): > > No one is demanding that. Politicians should be free to believe what they wish. They should not, however, act in ways that imply their personal religious beliefs represent the beliefs of the wider polity. They are supposed to vote with their conscience as to what they think best serves the people, and you elected them knowing who they are. (in theory) ---
**Author:** ![mswas](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/e99b99/32.png) [@mswas](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/mswas)\ **Post date:** [January 15, 2009, 7:54pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/ok-atheists-settle-the-fuck-down/481366/220 "2009-01-15T19:54:53Z")
> [@Maeglin](#): > > That’s because we are in the Bubble. Good luck overhearing the same conversation thirty miles north of here. > > It is culturally acceptable only in an extremely small geography and among an extremely narrow subset of people. I certain’t couldn’t get away with that at work. One of the people I work with totes her Bible Answer Man mug everywhere she goes. Well that would just be rude. That’s more a ‘don’t be a dick’ rule. > [@](#): > > I also started going to a Jewish bible study group with a colleague, curiously enough. I think if I told any of them I am a nonbeliever, their heads would explode. ’ Why do you go if I may ask? [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/ok-atheists-settle-the-fuck-down/481366.md?page=10) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/ok-atheists-settle-the-fuck-down/481366.md?page=12)