# Ok atheists, settle the fuck down. **URL:** \ **Category:** The BBQ Pit\ **Created:** [January 15, 2009, 2:10am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/ok-atheists-settle-the-fuck-down/481366 "2009-01-15T02:10:48Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 5
**Author:** ![Ludovic](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/l/7ab992/32.png) [@Ludovic](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Ludovic)\ **Post date:** [January 15, 2009, 2:09pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/ok-atheists-settle-the-fuck-down/481366/81 "2009-01-15T14:09:01Z")
> [@Brown\_Eyed\_Girl](#): > > Actually, it’s been made pretty clear it’s not culturally acceptable among atheists and agnostics. Just because most of you are Christians doesn’t make it acceptable to bulldoze everyone else with your platitudes. I’m an agnostic and I don’t care if people use this as a departing greeting: somewhat quaint but at least they’re not trying to impose their will on my neighbors through force of law. So it’s not culturally acceptable nor inacceptable to me. Similarly, while I am not a fan of the culture that _expects_ ceremonial deism at the end of the oath of office and that will look down on anyone who does not say “so help me God” at the end of the oath, if an individual had a choice to say or not say it I would not be offended by their choosing to say it. Although if I were elected, I would probably not say it, less out of a desire to break with a cultural tradition out of actual (lack of) belief than out of a challenge to said cultural tradition out of principle. (Which is why I’m not a politician.) ---
**Author:** ![Musicat](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/musicat/32/20189_2.png) [@Musicat](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Musicat)\ **Post date:** [January 15, 2009, 2:20pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/ok-atheists-settle-the-fuck-down/481366/82 "2009-01-15T14:20:02Z")
> [@MEBuckner](#): > > No one but school kids (and maybe grandstanding politicians) actually says the Pledge of Allegiance. By Pledge of Allegiance I mean the one that goes “I pledge allegiance to the flag of the United States of America, and to the republic for which it stands, one nation under God, indivisible, with liberty and justice for all.” Maybe it’s a regional thing, but all the government meetings at the top of each local level in my area say the Pledge at the start of EVERY meeting. All participants and audience members stand up and recite it together while staring blankly at the nearest flag. In fact, one town recently added it to the agenda just so they wouldn’t stand out. There was no opposition. By “top of each local level” I mean to exclude committee meetings. Our Town, Village, City, County and School Boards, which govern their respective venues, all use the Pledge at every meeting. I refuse to say it, but I stand up and look appropriately reverent. So far, no one has asked me why. Living with the philosophy of “choose your battles carefully,” I am not about to rock the boat on this one as I’m sure I am in the extreme minority. ---
**Author:** ![drachillix](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/48db29/32.png) [@drachillix](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/drachillix)\ **Post date:** [January 15, 2009, 2:20pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/ok-atheists-settle-the-fuck-down/481366/83 "2009-01-15T14:20:58Z")
> [@mswas](#): > > Well when I go amidst a culture that is not my own I generally don’t get pissed off when someone says their cultural version of, “Have a nice day.” > > It’s just odd to me that it’s so hateful to some people. Historically in my life I have felt it was more like a religious litmus test to see if we reply in kind. Doing what I do I spend alot of time in the office areas of many businesses. Religion in the workplace is FAR from dead, and discussions of “did you hear marry is marrying “one of them”” are all too common. Them being someone of a different religious background than the workers, who all seem to go to the same church. Offices and work areas with overt religious decor are more common than you might expect. I am not talking about a small crucifix over a door I am talking posters of proverbs and inspirational sayings, businesses whos names are anagrams of religious terms, and tubs of “scripture snacks” on the counter. ---
**Author:** ![Really\_Not\_All\_That\_Bright](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/e8c25b/32.png) [@Really\_Not\_All\_That\_Bright](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Really_Not_All_That_Bright)\ **Post date:** [January 15, 2009, 2:27pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/ok-atheists-settle-the-fuck-down/481366/84 "2009-01-15T14:27:21Z")
> [@Kobal2](#): > > OK, I’m curious - what the hell is the Holy Land Experience ? What do people do there ? Get witnessed to while wandering around a bunch of exhibits featuring Biblical artifacts and horrible, horrible live “recreations” of Bible stories, mostly. It’s sort of like a Disney recreation of Solomon’s Temple, only about a million times less professional and entertaining than it would be if Disney actually did it. Think of it as the world’s most boring theme park. ---
**Author:** ![artemis](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/91b2a8/32.png) [@artemis](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/artemis)\ **Post date:** [January 15, 2009, 2:28pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/ok-atheists-settle-the-fuck-down/481366/85 "2009-01-15T14:28:34Z")
> [@mswas](#): > > Well when I go amidst a culture that is not my own… And you honestly claim to wonder why atheists (and non-Christians in general) are pissed off at expressions of official ceremonial deism? The whole _point_ of those phrases is just that: to claim on the part of Christianity a cultural hegemony it simply doesn’t have. Christian culture is NOT the culture of the United States as a whole, no matter how badly Christians might wish it were otherwise. I am NOT “going amidst a culture not my own” when I attend a government function, handle money, or go to school. This is MY culture every bit as much as it is theirs; our government functions should respect that, and remain scrupulously neutral on matters of faith. Currently they are not, and that’s a problem. (Why do I suspect that the people in this thread who think having “In God We Trust” on our money is fine would have a meltdown if the US Mint started printing “We Trust In Ourselves, Because No Gods Exist” on our currency? Or if the Chief Justice added “So help me Goddess” or “So help me Allah” to the Presidential swearing in? If these phrases are just harmless platitudes, why would it matter if they were changed or removed?) ---
**Author:** ![UnwrittenNocturne](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/u/6de8d8/32.png) [@UnwrittenNocturne](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/UnwrittenNocturne)\ **Post date:** [January 15, 2009, 2:31pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/ok-atheists-settle-the-fuck-down/481366/86 "2009-01-15T14:31:28Z")
> [@Lynn\_Bodoni](#): > > I have been known to sit down on a quiet evening and black out “In God We Trust” from all of my bills. Since I’ve gone to using a debit card, I don’t do this as often. I haven’t found a chisel small enough for coins. You have just given me something to d for the next few minutes. Thanks! ---
**Author:** ![ivan\_astikov](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/i/58f4c7/32.png) [@ivan\_astikov](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/ivan_astikov)\ **Post date:** [January 15, 2009, 2:36pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/ok-atheists-settle-the-fuck-down/481366/87 "2009-01-15T14:36:52Z")
“In God We Trust - All Others Must Pay Cash!” would at least show you had a sense of humour. That goes a long way, ya know! ---
**Author:** ![Ethilrist](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/ethilrist/32/4604_2.png) [@Ethilrist](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Ethilrist)\ **Post date:** [January 15, 2009, 2:37pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/ok-atheists-settle-the-fuck-down/481366/88 "2009-01-15T14:37:46Z")
> [@mswas](#): > > It’s always odd to me how hostile people are to religious expressions. I mean why is a cultural well wish so nasty? Some people think we’re just a few bad administrations away from another Inquisition, and they don’t want to be on the wrong side of one. ---
**Author:** ![Revenant\_Threshold](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/f1d935/32.png) [@Revenant\_Threshold](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Revenant_Threshold)\ **Post date:** [January 15, 2009, 3:16pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/ok-atheists-settle-the-fuck-down/481366/89 "2009-01-15T15:16:30Z")
> [@Brown\_Eyed\_Girl](#): > > Okay. I can see how people might feel oppressed by all the God this, God that; personally I don’t, although I do feel distinctly put upon by it. Seems like you can’t turn around without being reminded that as a non-believer you are somehow not a patriot, not a moral person, or otherwise less than everyone else. All I have to do is open my wallet to see that I don’t fit in. I know why you people can’t keep God to yourself, but it’s awfully presumptuous to speak for us all. I’m afraid i’m an “us people”, not a “you people”. But i’d say that in my eyes there’s a difference between true oppression and this, which i’d call social pressure as you have below. But it’s fine for people to say that atheists aren’t patriots, moral people, or otherwise less than anyone else; I tend to disagree, and not like it, but it’s a grin and bear it situation. > [@](#): > > It really comes down to perception I guess. I’d say it’s viewed more as a social oppression than a governmental one, but the lines seem to blur when society uses the government to reinforce the social oppression. It’s one thing to express your own values on a personal level. It’s quite another thing to express your values as that of society-as-a-whole. I’d say this was pretty much my problem with it, too. Your government is supposed to represent the entirety of the population. Official productions of the government should follow that idea. It’s a bit of a mix of the problems that using one particular faith (that so happens to be followed by a majority) rather than elect to represent all people, and moreover as you say that by doing this it is rather claiming that such sentiments _are_ a good representation of all people. ---
**Author:** ![Jack\_Batty](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/jack_batty/32/3201_2.png) [@Jack\_Batty](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Jack_Batty)\ **Post date:** [January 15, 2009, 3:43pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/ok-atheists-settle-the-fuck-down/481366/90 "2009-01-15T15:43:30Z")
> [@Revenant\_Threshold](#): > > But it’s fine for people to say that atheists aren’t patriots, moral people, or otherwise less than anyone else; I tend to disagree, and not like it, but it’s a grin and bear it situation. Therein lies the pain in the ass of the situation. It’s fine for anyone, including the president of the country, to say that atheists aren’t real Americans and we have to grin and bear it. He doesn’t even need a reason to say it … he just feels like it. But the first time anyone says anything disparaging about Christians and it’s and attack on faith must be dealt with. You show me an American president who says, “I don’t think Christians should be considered real Americans,” and I’ll show you a guy who won’t be president for very long. All things being equal … things are not very equal. ---
**Author:** ![Telcontar](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/3bc359/32.png) [@Telcontar](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Telcontar)\ **Post date:** [January 15, 2009, 4:14pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/ok-atheists-settle-the-fuck-down/481366/91 "2009-01-15T16:14:29Z")
> [@Lynn\_Bodoni](#): > > I have been known to sit down on a quiet evening and black out “In God We Trust” from all of my bills. Since I’ve gone to using a debit card, I don’t do this as often. I haven’t found a chisel small enough for coins. I’m pretty sure that this is illegal (defacing currency). > **[Google Answers: Defacing US currency?](http://answers.google.com/answers/threadview?id=426715)** ---
**Author:** ![Jack\_Batty](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/jack_batty/32/3201_2.png) [@Jack\_Batty](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Jack_Batty)\ **Post date:** [January 15, 2009, 4:16pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/ok-atheists-settle-the-fuck-down/481366/92 "2009-01-15T16:16:31Z")
> [@Telcontar](#): > > I’m pretty sure that this is illegal (defacing currency). > [Google Answers: Defacing US currency?](http://answers.google.com/answers/threadview?id=426715) The key-words are “unfit to re-issue” _edit: or rather “unfit for circulation” - same thing._ Blacking out “In God We Trust” doesn’t do that. ---
**Author:** ![Telcontar](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/3bc359/32.png) [@Telcontar](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Telcontar)\ **Post date:** [January 15, 2009, 4:24pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/ok-atheists-settle-the-fuck-down/481366/93 "2009-01-15T16:24:32Z")
> [@Jack\_Batty](#): > > The key-words are “unfit to re-issue”. > > Blacking out “In God We Trust” doesn’t do that. I’ve seen some reports of people getting SS letters for doing it (i.e. [http://www.positiveatheism.org/mail/eml9613.htm](http://www.positiveatheism.org/mail/eml9613.htm)), but I don’t know whether the reports are credible or what would happen if it ever ended up in court. I get the impression that “unfit to re-issue” is interpreted broadly, but that no one is hell bent on enforcing the law, ---
**Author:** ![Loach](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/loach/32/350_2.png) [@Loach](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Loach)\ **Post date:** [January 15, 2009, 4:29pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/ok-atheists-settle-the-fuck-down/481366/94 "2009-01-15T16:29:48Z")
> [@Jack\_Batty](#): > > The key-words are “unfit to re-issue” _edit: or rather “unfit for circulation” - same thing._ > > Blacking out “In God We Trust” doesn’t do that. Or stamping “Wheres George?” If anyone wants clarification on this go to the [wheresgeorge.com](http://wheresgeorge.com) site. They were investigated and cleared by the Secret Service. It is not illegal. ---
**Author:** ![Jack\_Batty](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/jack_batty/32/3201_2.png) [@Jack\_Batty](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Jack_Batty)\ **Post date:** [January 15, 2009, 4:31pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/ok-atheists-settle-the-fuck-down/481366/95 "2009-01-15T16:31:00Z")
> [@Loach](#): > > Or stamping “Wheres George?” If anyone wants clarification on this go to the [wheresgeorge.com](http://wheresgeorge.com) site. They were investigated and cleared by the Secret Service. It is not illegal. I was thinking specifically of that too – I just couldn’t remember exactly what the phrase and site was. ---
**Author:** ![Sarahfeena](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/sarahfeena/32/519_2.png) [@Sarahfeena](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Sarahfeena)\ **Post date:** [January 15, 2009, 4:37pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/ok-atheists-settle-the-fuck-down/481366/96 "2009-01-15T16:37:10Z")
My reaction to the story linked to in the OP is this: Obama is a Christian, and a pretty devout one by all accounts. When he adds “so help me God” to his oath, it no doubt makes it even more solemn and meaningful than it would be otherwise, and this is a _good_ thing for the American people. Not only his he pledging his service to us, but he is doing so in the most sincere and powerful way that he can imagine. It’s irrelevant if we believe in his god, or if that part of the oath is meaningful to us…it’s meaningful to him, and it’s his oath. By adding it, he’s sending us a message of dedication to this purpose. ---
**Author:** ![Really\_Not\_All\_That\_Bright](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/e8c25b/32.png) [@Really\_Not\_All\_That\_Bright](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Really_Not_All_That_Bright)\ **Post date:** [January 15, 2009, 4:40pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/ok-atheists-settle-the-fuck-down/481366/97 "2009-01-15T16:40:00Z")
Maybe, but so what? Are you suggesting that he might mail it in if he didn’t add the God bit, but that since he will, he’s bound to work extra hard? ---
**Author:** ![Lightnin](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/lightnin/32/180_2.png) [@Lightnin](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Lightnin)\ **Post date:** [January 15, 2009, 4:57pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/ok-atheists-settle-the-fuck-down/481366/98 "2009-01-15T16:57:08Z")
> [@Sarahfeena](#): > > By adding it, he’s sending us a message of dedication to this purpose. …or pandering to the Religious Right, whichever comes first. Don’t get me wrong- I do think that Obama’s Christianity is valid. However, just because a President adds “So help me God” does not mean that he’s necessarily doing it because he really, truly believes. The worst thing about it in my mind, though, is that it’s \*expected \*at this point. It’s just like the Lapel Pin. It doesn’t really mean anything- but if he doesn’t do it, it gives his critics just one more thing to use against him. _That’s_ why SHMG should be disallowed. It forces everyone else who takes the pledge to vow the same thing. It institutionalizes what should be a private belief. ---
**Author:** ![Sarahfeena](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/sarahfeena/32/519_2.png) [@Sarahfeena](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Sarahfeena)\ **Post date:** [January 15, 2009, 5:01pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/ok-atheists-settle-the-fuck-down/481366/99 "2009-01-15T17:01:50Z")
> [@Really\_Not\_All\_That\_Bright](#): > > Maybe, but so what? Are you suggesting that he might mail it in if he didn’t add the God bit, but that since he will, he’s bound to work extra hard? No, not at all. Let me use an analogy…it’s like the reason that religious people like to have their weddings in a church, and take that vow before God. It doesn’t mean that they necessarily take their marriage any more seriously than anyone else, or that they are going to work harder at it than they would otherwise. It’s just a message to themselves and others how seriously they are taking it. If you aren’t religious, you might not understand it, but it is a deeply meaningful thing to a religious person. To the point where, if the person DIDN’T want to take such a vow before God, I would wonder why. For instance, if I was marrying a very religious man, and he only wanted to have a civil ceremony with no mention of God, I would be very confused and somewhat concerned about the reason for that. I also do think that when the going gets tough, knowing that he made that promise before God will help him. That’s the kind of thing that religious people sometimes lean on. ---
**Author:** ![mswas](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/e99b99/32.png) [@mswas](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/mswas)\ **Post date:** [January 15, 2009, 5:11pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/ok-atheists-settle-the-fuck-down/481366/100 "2009-01-15T17:11:40Z")
> [@Brown\_Eyed\_Girl](#): > > What about the militant vegetarian culture? They don’t talk like that in my experience and I’ve known plenty. > [@](#): > > What makes you think the atheist/agnostic culture considers a blessing a polite greeting. Actually, it’s been made pretty clear it’s not culturally acceptable among atheists and agnostics. Just because most of you are Christians doesn’t make it acceptable to bulldoze everyone else with your platitudes. Might does not make right. It doesn’t really matter what you think is polite. If you want to go around from a point of resentment that someone has different cultural ideas than you do then go ahead. Generally it’s a polite greeting. You’re the only one that is expecting others to modify their behavior to suit your beliefs in this case. They are just talking like they talk. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/ok-atheists-settle-the-fuck-down/481366.md?page=4) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/ok-atheists-settle-the-fuck-down/481366.md?page=6)