# Ok atheists, settle the fuck down. **URL:** \ **Category:** The BBQ Pit\ **Created:** [January 15, 2009, 2:10am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/ok-atheists-settle-the-fuck-down/481366 "2009-01-15T02:10:48Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 9
**Author:** ![Lightnin](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/lightnin/32/180_2.png) [@Lightnin](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Lightnin)\ **Post date:** [January 15, 2009, 6:34pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/ok-atheists-settle-the-fuck-down/481366/161 "2009-01-15T18:34:52Z")
> [@Sarahfeena](#): > > I have no idea if it does or not, and I really don’t care. We elected a guy to the office who happens to be religious. Now we’re going to tell him that he can’t talk about it, can’t express it, has to pretend it doesn’t exist because the next guy might feel pressure? If the next guy who’s elected leader of the free world doesn’t have the balls to stand up and say he doesn’t want to include it, that he’s not religious and it has no particular meaning to him, then that’s his problem, as I said. And he won’t get elected. THAT’S the freakin’ problem! > [@Sarahfeena](#): > > Let me ask you a question. Every president I can remember is shown on the news going to church on holidays. Should they have to stop doing that, too, in case the next guy doesn’t want to feel pressure to go? YES. My President is, basically, my employee. I don’t care what he does in his private life, as long as he does his job. I’m not saying he can’t go to church- but he can’t endorse a particular religion by power of his office. He can go to church- but why the heck invite the media? There needs to be a sharp dividing line between church and state- otherwise, atheists (and other non-Christians) will always have a harder time getting elected. ---
**Author:** ![mswas](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/e99b99/32.png) [@mswas](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/mswas)\ **Post date:** [January 15, 2009, 6:35pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/ok-atheists-settle-the-fuck-down/481366/162 "2009-01-15T18:35:57Z")
> [@Bosstone](#): > > I’ve given some thought to this. I’m not sure he’d need to lie, but neither does he have to come right out and say s/he’s an atheist, thus scaring off the folks with a persecution complex. The trick isn’t to make any definitive statements about what you believe one way or the other, but instead deflect and keep the issues off religion. **We shouldn’t _care_ what religion our President subscribes to, or if he subscribes to one at all. It just should not be a factor.** This is a statement of ideology in and of itself. > [@](#): > > If we do get an atheist President, it’ll be someone who never explicitly says he is, and when asked about beliefs merely comes back with something like “Belief is a private matter,” etc. etc. It’ll be hard, but possibly doable. Although I haven’t figured out what the best answer to “Do you believe in God?” would be. The religion question is always asked. We’ll have an atheist president when we have a majority atheist population. ---
**Author:** ![Captain\_Carrot](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/f0a364/32.png) [@Captain\_Carrot](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Captain_Carrot)\ **Post date:** [January 15, 2009, 6:36pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/ok-atheists-settle-the-fuck-down/481366/163 "2009-01-15T18:36:40Z")
> [@mswas](#): > > Baby Phat billboards. Could you provide an example? I couldn’t find anything like that. > [@mswas](#): > > I am talking about sharing a precise opinion about a political issue, not whether or not they disagree with me. Which still does not constitute or indicate a culture. > [@mswas](#): > > I consider movies like Religulous, books like, The God Delusion and web sites dedicated to atheism to be the products of culture. Just like not every atheist agrees with everything portrayed in these media, not every Christian agrees with every book, movie, or web site that talks about Christianity. Ah. So your criterion for being ‘atheist culture’ is ‘anything that talks non-disparagingly about atheism’. Gotcha. ---
**Author:** ![mswas](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/e99b99/32.png) [@mswas](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/mswas)\ **Post date:** [January 15, 2009, 6:40pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/ok-atheists-settle-the-fuck-down/481366/164 "2009-01-15T18:40:43Z")
> [@Captain\_Carrot](#): > > Could you provide an example? I couldn’t find anything like that. I haven’t seen one in a while and couldn’t find it online but I remember seeing one in downtown Manhattan a few years back that was a 12 year old girl in a provocative barely clothed pose. Regardless we have plenty of 12 and 13 year old girls who are barely dressed in Vogue, or various other adverts all the time. > [@](#): > > Which still does not constitute or indicate a culture. It certainly is one point of evidence. > [@](#): > > Ah. So your criterion for being ‘atheist culture’ is ‘anything that talks non-disparagingly about atheism’. Gotcha. My criteria for culture is common and shared beliefs or habits. The idea of shared literature points to there being a common culture. Just like there is an LGBT culture, or a Role-Playing Gamer culture. The idea that a President should be religiously neutral is essentially saying that the President should be atheist or agnostic. A religious President cannot stop being religious when he steps into office. Also, it doesn’t violate the separation clause for their to be a religious President, as the separation clause only keeps away the establishment of a state religion, it doesn’t preclude politicians from making decisions based upon religious belief. ---
**Author:** ![Captain\_Carrot](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/f0a364/32.png) [@Captain\_Carrot](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Captain_Carrot)\ **Post date:** [January 15, 2009, 6:40pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/ok-atheists-settle-the-fuck-down/481366/165 "2009-01-15T18:40:53Z")
> [@mswas](#): > > The religion question is always asked. We’ll have an atheist president when we have a majority atheist population. Oh, come off it. We had a Catholic President and will shortly have a Catholic Vice President, we very nearly had (in two separate elections) a Jewish Vice President and another Catholic President. A majority of the population does not need to agree with your religious beliefs (or lack thereof) for you to be elected. You do, however, need a large majority of the population not to be prejudiced against you for your beliefs or lack thereof, and that will, I think, not be true for atheists for a while. ---
**Author:** ![mswas](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/e99b99/32.png) [@mswas](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/mswas)\ **Post date:** [January 15, 2009, 6:42pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/ok-atheists-settle-the-fuck-down/481366/166 "2009-01-15T18:42:51Z")
> [@Captain\_Carrot](#): > > Oh, come off it. We had a Catholic President and will shortly have a Catholic Vice President, we very nearly had (in two separate elections) a Jewish Vice President and another Catholic President. A majority of the population does not need to agree with your religious beliefs (or lack thereof) for you to be elected. You do, however, need a large majority of the population not to be prejudiced against you for your beliefs or lack thereof, and that will, I think, not be true for atheists for a while. The difference is more fundamental than the difference between various forms of Judaism and Christianity. ---
**Author:** ![Bosstone](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/22d042/32.png) [@Bosstone](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Bosstone)\ **Post date:** [January 15, 2009, 6:44pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/ok-atheists-settle-the-fuck-down/481366/167 "2009-01-15T18:44:09Z")
> [@mswas](#): > > This is a statement of ideology in and of itself. Yes, secular, if you must insist on it being any sort of ideology. I don’t care if the guy is Christian, Jewish, Muslim, Buddhist, or atheist, as long as he can do the job. That a Christian won’t vote for a Jew or atheist, even though they may be otherwise perfect to be President, is a failing on the Christian’s part. ---
**Author:** ![Captain\_Carrot](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/f0a364/32.png) [@Captain\_Carrot](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Captain_Carrot)\ **Post date:** [January 15, 2009, 6:45pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/ok-atheists-settle-the-fuck-down/481366/168 "2009-01-15T18:45:29Z")
> [@mswas](#): > > I haven’t seen one in a while and couldn’t find it online but I remember seeing one in downtown Manhattan a few years back that was a 12 year old girl in a provocative barely clothed pose. Regardless we have plenty of 12 and 13 year old girls who are barely dressed in Vogue, or various other adverts all the time. Good job having no idea what the fuck child pornography is. > [@mswas](#): > > It certainly is one point of evidence. For the fifth time, people can, and do, agree without sharing a culture. > [@mswas](#): > > My criteria for culture is common and shared beliefs or habits. So there’s such a thing as ‘liberal culture’? I think more than beliefs or habits is needed. > [@mswas](#): > > The idea that a President should be religiously neutral is essentially saying that the President should be atheist or agnostic. A religious President cannot stop being religious when he steps into office. Actually, no. The idea that a President should be religiously neutral is essentially saying that, on the job, the President should not be favoring one religion over another. He can do whatever he wants in his private life, which the Inauguration is not. > [@mswas](#): > > The difference is more fundamental than the difference between various forms of Judaism and Christianity. Did you miss my point, or are you ignoring it? ---
**Author:** ![mswas](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/e99b99/32.png) [@mswas](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/mswas)\ **Post date:** [January 15, 2009, 6:47pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/ok-atheists-settle-the-fuck-down/481366/169 "2009-01-15T18:47:59Z")
> [@Captain\_Carrot](#): > > Good job having no idea what the fuck child pornography is. And there you go again thinking your view of pornography is the default view and should be accepted by such because it is within your common culture. > [@](#): > > For the fifth time, people can, and do, agree without sharing a culture. That’s true. > [@](#): > > So there’s such a thing as ‘liberal culture’? I think more than beliefs or habits is needed. So how would you define culture? > [@](#): > > Actually, no. The idea that a President should be religiously neutral is essentially saying that, on the job, the President should not be favoring one religion over another. He can do whatever he wants in his private life, which the Inauguration is not. I disagree, because his moral philosophy will be intrinsically tied to his religious belief, so the oath is actually the least of all possible encroachments of his religious belief on civic life. > [@](#): > > Did you miss my point, or are you ignoring it? Neither. Not voting for someone because they are atheist isn’t bigotry, it’s voting your own interests. Why should I vote for someone who doesn’t represent my beliefs? Are you in the habit for voting for people who don’t represent your interests? ---
**Author:** ![Lightnin](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/lightnin/32/180_2.png) [@Lightnin](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Lightnin)\ **Post date:** [January 15, 2009, 6:49pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/ok-atheists-settle-the-fuck-down/481366/170 "2009-01-15T18:49:41Z")
> [@mswas](#): > > I disagree, because his moral philosophy will be intrinsically tied to his religious belief, so the oath is actually the least of all possible encroachments of his religious belief on civic life. Wait… are you saying that morals are directly related to religious belief? ---
**Author:** ![mswas](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/e99b99/32.png) [@mswas](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/mswas)\ **Post date:** [January 15, 2009, 6:50pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/ok-atheists-settle-the-fuck-down/481366/171 "2009-01-15T18:50:38Z")
> [@Lightnin](#): > > Wait… are you saying that morals are directly related to religious belief? Yes, start bailing the straw. ---
**Author:** ![Maeglin](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/8baadc/32.png) [@Maeglin](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Maeglin)\ **Post date:** [January 15, 2009, 6:51pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/ok-atheists-settle-the-fuck-down/481366/172 "2009-01-15T18:51:09Z")
> [@mswas](#): > > So how would you define culture? How about this: > [@](#): > > …the entire social heritage of a community, including its material > expressions, its ideological expressions, and its structural or institutional > expressions – all of which are socially learned or constructed and > therefore contingent and variable. ---
**Author:** ![Really\_Not\_All\_That\_Bright](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/e8c25b/32.png) [@Really\_Not\_All\_That\_Bright](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Really_Not_All_That_Bright)\ **Post date:** [January 15, 2009, 6:51pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/ok-atheists-settle-the-fuck-down/481366/173 "2009-01-15T18:51:59Z")
> [@mswas](#): > > And there you go again thinking your view of pornography is the default view and should be accepted by such because it is within your common culture. Darn that Gotcha Dictionary. ---
**Author:** ![LonesomePolecat](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/l/a88e57/32.png) [@LonesomePolecat](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/LonesomePolecat)\ **Post date:** [January 15, 2009, 6:52pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/ok-atheists-settle-the-fuck-down/481366/174 "2009-01-15T18:52:53Z")
> [@Brown\_Eyed\_Girl](#): > > Why is it so shocking that some people find religious expressions distasteful? Because it indicates malicious small-mindedness that looks for petty excuses to take offense. ---
**Author:** ![Captain\_Carrot](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/f0a364/32.png) [@Captain\_Carrot](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Captain_Carrot)\ **Post date:** [January 15, 2009, 6:54pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/ok-atheists-settle-the-fuck-down/481366/175 "2009-01-15T18:54:33Z")
> [@mswas](#): > > Neither. Not voting for someone because they are atheist isn’t bigotry, it’s voting your own interests. Why should I vote for someone who doesn’t represent my beliefs? Is it that important to you that your elected officials be Christian? I think most people, no matter what their personal religious leanings, share certain aspects of social philosophy. > [@mswas](#): > > Are you in the habit for voting for people who don’t represent your interests? No, but I certainly don’t assume that people who are different from me don’t represent my interests. I’m sure Rick Boucher, Jim Webb, and Mark Warner are all Christians. I’m equally sure that they represent me, because I know how they feel on certain issues that are important to me. ---
**Author:** ![mswas](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/e99b99/32.png) [@mswas](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/mswas)\ **Post date:** [January 15, 2009, 6:55pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/ok-atheists-settle-the-fuck-down/481366/176 "2009-01-15T18:55:01Z")
> [@Maeglin](#): > > How about this: Works for me. ---
**Author:** ![Captain\_Carrot](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/f0a364/32.png) [@Captain\_Carrot](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Captain_Carrot)\ **Post date:** [January 15, 2009, 6:55pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/ok-atheists-settle-the-fuck-down/481366/177 "2009-01-15T18:55:34Z")
> [@LonesomePolecat](#): > > Because it indicates malicious small-mindedness that looks for petty excuses to take offense. Yeah, atheists are the ones who are small minded. Remind me again who invented the “War on Christmas”? ---
**Author:** ![Algher](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/3d9bf3/32.png) [@Algher](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Algher)\ **Post date:** [January 15, 2009, 6:55pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/ok-atheists-settle-the-fuck-down/481366/178 "2009-01-15T18:55:43Z")
> [@Lightnin](#): > > … who live in a society where religion isn’t supposed to interfere with government. > > Do you deny that \*any \*President’s inclusion of “so help me God” makes it that much harder for subsequent oath-takers to \*not \*include “so help me God”? No - we live in a society where government isn’t supposed to interfere with religion. Obama has every right to mention God when he takes the Oath. What he can NOT do is require Americans to mention God, nor can he prevent Americans from mentioning God. ---
**Author:** ![Lightnin](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/lightnin/32/180_2.png) [@Lightnin](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Lightnin)\ **Post date:** [January 15, 2009, 6:56pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/ok-atheists-settle-the-fuck-down/481366/179 "2009-01-15T18:56:42Z")
> [@mswas](#): > > Yes, start bailing the straw. Not surprisingly, you didn’t really answer the question. You said, “…his moral philosophy will be intrinsically tied to his religious belief…” ARE you, in fact, saying that morals are directly related to religious belief? ---
**Author:** ![mswas](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/e99b99/32.png) [@mswas](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/mswas)\ **Post date:** [January 15, 2009, 6:57pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/ok-atheists-settle-the-fuck-down/481366/180 "2009-01-15T18:57:19Z")
> [@Captain\_Carrot](#): > > Is it that important to you that your elected officials be Christian? I think most people, no matter what their personal religious leanings, share certain aspects of social philosophy. No, it’s not terribly important to me. I probably wouldn’t vote for a devout Muslim though. > [@](#): > > No, but I certainly don’t assume that people who are different from me don’t represent my interests. I’m sure Rick Boucher, Jim Webb, and Mark Warner are all Christians. I’m equally sure that they represent me, because I know how they feel on certain issues that are important to me. Right ok. Would someone being an atheist inspire a feeling of affection for someone? Would you want to see that atheist politician succeed because he is an atheist? [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/ok-atheists-settle-the-fuck-down/481366.md?page=8) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/ok-atheists-settle-the-fuck-down/481366.md?page=10)