# OK, Beeyotches, You've Made Up My Mind For Me **URL:** \ **Category:** The BBQ Pit\ **Created:** [September 4, 2008, 3:47pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/ok-beeyotches-youve-made-up-my-mind-for-me/462002 "2008-09-04T15:47:31Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 8
**Author:** ![wring](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/w/838e76/32.png) [@wring](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/wring)\ **Post date:** [September 4, 2008, 6:54pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/ok-beeyotches-youve-made-up-my-mind-for-me/462002/141 "2008-09-04T18:54:09Z")
> [@hentor the barbarian](#): > > what a touchy and hypersensitive brand of republican we seem to have here at the dope. Not at all like the ruggedy, mavericky, independent, steely eyed, tough and emotionally aloof brand that you see on the teevee. > > Please don’t hurt their feelings. what the fuck? why does the d change to lower case? 😃 ---
**Author:** ![torie](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/77aa72/32.png) [@torie](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/torie)\ **Post date:** [September 4, 2008, 6:58pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/ok-beeyotches-youve-made-up-my-mind-for-me/462002/142 "2008-09-04T18:58:09Z")
> [@ArchiveGuy](#): > > See, all the conservatives have begun to buy their own overinflated talking-points hype: “Oooh, he’s transcendent! He’ll part the waters! He’ll change the face of politics overnight and then rest on the 2nd day!” No liberal thinks that (or very few do), but we do recognize that it’s a good start, and a noble pursuit, even if it’s hard not to be convinced that the only way to duke it out is to wallow in Rovian tactics. > > I like Bricker and I believed him as genuine when he said he would consider voting for Obama. But this thread makes clear that he held him to an impossible standard. You lead by example, and if he were to win running a (relatively) clean and postive, unifying campaign, I want to believe that the GOP would actually do some self-assessing and try to become a party reoriented toward conservative principles and not just anti-liberal fear-mongering. > > Obama has goals and aspirations, but it would be foolish to believe he can build a new Rome in a day. So I find it disingenuous for Bricker to see the actions of some of Obama’s followers, and assume that nothing will ever change after all. What did he expect? Clearly a miracle. > > What’s most dispiriting, though, is the unadulterated glee that he takes in rubbing his non-conversion back in our faces. Of course, this is wholly in the spirit of the vindictive tenor of the Republican convention so far, and strikes me as far more immature then is typical for him. I believe that, unlike the corrosive devisiveness on display last night, Obama does sincerely believe he can build coalitions and bridge cultural and political divides–and I believe that the more he succeeds in doing this, the less you’ll see of the nastiness that Bricker uses as his reasoning for staying where he is. > > But it won’t happen overnight–particularly since it’s also clear that he still seems so glibly unaware of the real bitterness many liberals feel–not about losing power or seeing our candidates beaten, but by seeing the country we love monumentally fucked up by unfettered Republican rule for 6 straight years. So yeah, there’s going to be some pettiness and low blows, and if you fixate on that, then it’ll be easy to convince yourself that it’s all merely talk. But that’s his choice, and not some inevitability borne out of political reality. > > So amidst all the unfortunate name-calling going on in this thread, I’m sorry to see him go. I think his excuses are a bit specious and unrealistic (which is why, I suspect, many others think he was full of it in the first place), but I appreciate that he was open to the possibility of something better. I’m sure that won’t stop him from telling me to suck his fat one, too (I’ll pass, thanks), but I can guarantee that when Obama wins, I may be elated by the victory, but I won’t be “crowing”, calling him names and disparaging what he believes in. Because when Obama wins, we’ll still need guys like Bricker to help accomplish the achieveable things my candidate has set out to do. It’s too bad he doesn’t see me (and people who share my optimism) the same way. ☹ ::Golf Clap:: When you attempt to change the way things have been established, it never happens overnight. Dr. King didn’t change the circumstances for African-Americans overnight, nor was he able to stop the more violent riots of the civil rights movement. Does that mean that he was also a bad leader and an “empty shirt”? ---
**Author:** ![Merijeek](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/f05b48/32.png) [@Merijeek](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Merijeek)\ **Post date:** [September 4, 2008, 7:01pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/ok-beeyotches-youve-made-up-my-mind-for-me/462002/143 "2008-09-04T19:01:24Z")
> [@Cervaise](#): > > If Obama wins, I will not gloat, because I am a better human being than you are. You won’t get a chance with **Bricker** for one of two reasons: 1. He never said any of the above, and everyone his misinterpreted what he really said or 1. He’ll vanish, because he’s a pussy. I guess we’ll have a 50% chance of seeing if I’m right in early November… -Joe ---
**Author:** ![Mr.Moto](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/9de0a6/32.png) [@Mr.Moto](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Mr.Moto)\ **Post date:** [September 4, 2008, 7:01pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/ok-beeyotches-youve-made-up-my-mind-for-me/462002/144 "2008-09-04T19:01:43Z")
> [@Cervaise](#): > > If Obama wins, I will not gloat, because I am a better human being than you are. Stop gloating. ---
**Author:** ![Auntbeast](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/5f9b8f/32.png) [@Auntbeast](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Auntbeast)\ **Post date:** [September 4, 2008, 7:03pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/ok-beeyotches-youve-made-up-my-mind-for-me/462002/145 "2008-09-04T19:03:03Z")
Creationist Barbie? That is fucking hilarious. Sorry, mad props, but that made me fall over. What doesn’t make me fall over? Well, when folks so viciously toe their particular party line. I don’t care who you vote for, but vote for them for a good reason. Let it be slightly more than “because they said so.” Please. Anyone remember back when Perot ran? Do you know what many people said? That they would not vote for him “because he will not win.” You know how people win elections? By being voted for. The logic failed many. I don’t consider myself a democrat or republican. And I have to be honest, if Palin is the best possible VP candidate they can come up with, the republicans are in a sorry state. Really, the best? If she isn’t the best possible, then why is she there? That is the question I’m asking myself. There are always reasons, the question is what are the reasons? I know why Obama is there, it is because Bush has such an intolerably low level of respect of the people. The number of people that say we are better off right now are few and far between. People don’t rebel by raising a hemline 1/4 of an inch, they do it by going as far the other direction as possible. What is the farthest you can get from an old, white, established, good-ol’ boy from Texas? Howz about a semi-black, young, fresh young upstart from a state that BARELY existed as such before he did. DING DING DING, we have a winner. So Bricker, vote for who you are gonna vote for, the curtain will be closed and we’ll never know, but remember, those curtains close for a reason. Who you vote for should be important and personal to you, and whether or not it is any one elses business is entirely your business. And? You can lie through your teeth about your vote. And for that? Rock on United States. ---
**Author:** ![ComeToTheDarkSideWeHaveCookies](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/e9bcb4/32.png) [@ComeToTheDarkSideWeHaveCookies](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/ComeToTheDarkSideWeHaveCookies)\ **Post date:** [September 4, 2008, 7:03pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/ok-beeyotches-youve-made-up-my-mind-for-me/462002/146 "2008-09-04T19:03:59Z")
While I don’t agree with the way Bricker has now pledged his vote, I too have almost used up all of the political optimism that Obama and his decision to run have instilled in me. I don’t find Obama at fault for this, however, I blame the status quo. All sides of it. The behavior of so many in an election year is ludicrous, be they candidates, media, pundits, staffers, bloggers, voters, non-voters. Why? Why do we devolve to children in the playground when the teacher isn’t watching during these crucial decision-making times? For my part, I’ve made some eyerolls in Palin’s general direction on these boards (based on video of her speaking as opposed to rumors and innuendo) and I don’t agree with her at all on many issues that I consider very important. But the signal to noise ratio as far as relevant vs irrelevant (imho) information about her with which the voters of this country are supposed to consider when making an informed decision is, again, ludicrous. As is the case, and will be the case, for all politicians until we have some sort of paradigm shift. ---
**Author:** ![TVeblen](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/4bbf92/32.png) [@TVeblen](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/TVeblen)\ **Post date:** [September 4, 2008, 7:04pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/ok-beeyotches-youve-made-up-my-mind-for-me/462002/147 "2008-09-04T19:04:01Z")
> [@KarmaComa](#): > > And I see the frothing liberals and understand where you’re coming from, but it makes me wonder: > > Can’t you see that you are being had? Speaking only for myself, lacking an 'ilk, actually, I’m not a frothing liberal. I’m a moderate and an Independent. I think extremists on either side of the spectrum are stupid at best, but often actually damaging to the country. My unabashed fury, with **Bricker** and **Starving Artist** and the ever-fatuous **Shodan** , on the blithe disregard for the damage Shrub’s assassination politics has done to the political process and the Republican party itself. The mindless Coulter/Hannity/Limbaugh rantings of the usual assholes mentioned, and **Bricker’s** crocodile tears over how _mean_ election campaigns are nowadays obscure how completely the Republican party has been hijacked. Voting Republican, save in local elections, isn’t viable anymore to anyone who actually respects conservative values. **SA’s’** cheery references to ‘religion and social engineering’ is blatant Big Brotherism. Do I think those are bad ideas? Hell yes. Do I think people holding them are bad people? Fuck yes. I _don’t_ respect arrogant assholes who want to use government as a handy lever against other citizens. I loathe bullies. But here’s the Big Lie that ardent neocons still love: attack hard enough, lie _big_ enough and some people will believe black is white, up is down, anything, if it suits their tendencies. That way neocons can try to enforce fundamentalist ‘Christianity’ by the state while still claiming to insist government should keep the hell out of peoples’ lives. Oh, and claim to be _victims_ whenever somebody mentions gee, they’d rather make up their own minds about religion, thanks anyway. Same goes with anybody who still excuses or accepts the vicious political assassination tactics Rove/Bush established. And that, my children, is why **Bricker** and his little neocon buddies are clumps of reeking shit. I say that as a moderate and an Independent. Fruit of the poisoned tree, folks. Can’t celebrate and accept the vicious assholes who won, Rove and Cheney and inane little Shrub, without accepting the tactics they used to win. I have friends, genuine conservatives and proud _Republicans_, who’ve denounced Rove/Shrub’s assholishness–and insisted the GOP must return to its real core values, not the behind-the-looking-glass neocon distortions. You know, government actually not throwing money around like confetti, staying the hell out of peoples’ bedrooms and letting them choose their own religions. They aren’t liberal any stretch of the imagination…but they have integrity to burn. They also had hopes. _They’re_ ones most directly betrayed by McCain the whore and Creationist Barbie but of course the whole country is poorer. It’s a genuine pity that, once again, the GOP only offers whores, bullies and religious extremists. And of course the fawning little sychophants, like **Bricker** and **Starving Artist** and **Shodan** , who derive some personal satisfaction from gladiatorial politics. Or who support shitting the Constitution into a theocracy. ---
**Author:** ![WF\_Tomba](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/w/d9b06d/32.png) [@WF\_Tomba](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/WF_Tomba)\ **Post date:** [September 4, 2008, 7:06pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/ok-beeyotches-youve-made-up-my-mind-for-me/462002/148 "2008-09-04T19:06:24Z")
> [@Otto](#): > > Is that the “obviously biased leftie media” that has been [more critical of Obama than McCain by a 2.5 to 1 ratio](http://www.latimes.com/news/nationworld/nation/la-na-onthemedia27-2008jul27,0,6802141.story)? That’s an interesting stat. I suspect that the difference is only because Obama had a much longer nomination fight. The media like to ride on controversies. ---
**Author:** ![ComeToTheDarkSideWeHaveCookies](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/e9bcb4/32.png) [@ComeToTheDarkSideWeHaveCookies](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/ComeToTheDarkSideWeHaveCookies)\ **Post date:** [September 4, 2008, 7:10pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/ok-beeyotches-youve-made-up-my-mind-for-me/462002/149 "2008-09-04T19:10:27Z")
> [@ComeToTheDarkSideWeHaveCookies](#): > > While I don’t agree with the way Bricker has now pledged his vote, I too have almost used up all of the political optimism that Obama and his decision to run have instilled in me. I don’t find Obama at fault for this, however, I blame the status quo. All sides of it. > > The behavior of so many in an election year is ludicrous, be they candidates, media, pundits, staffers, bloggers, voters, non-voters. Why? Why do we devolve to children in the playground when the teacher isn’t watching during these crucial decision-making times? > > For my part, I’ve made some eyerolls in Palin’s general direction on these boards (based on video of her speaking as opposed to rumors and innuendo) and I don’t agree with her at all on many issues that I consider very important. But the signal to noise ratio as far as relevant vs irrelevant (imho) information about her with which the voters of this country are supposed to consider when making an informed decision is, again, ludicrous. As is the case, and will be the case, for all politicians until we have some sort of paradigm shift. (NETA: I am not trying to suggest that Bricker is blaming Obama for this either, though his pledge does smack of trying to punish the Obama campaign for the ludicrous behavior in the single most powerful way he can, by not voting for him) ---
**Author:** ![Starving\_Artist](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/aeb1de/32.png) [@Starving\_Artist](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Starving_Artist)\ **Post date:** [September 4, 2008, 7:10pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/ok-beeyotches-youve-made-up-my-mind-for-me/462002/150 "2008-09-04T19:10:51Z")
Let me see if I can condense that for ya: Pubbies have fucked up, ergo all future pubbies will fuck up, so if you’re really a conservative, you have no choice but to vote liberal or be an asshole! But having said that, I honestly never have seen this side of you before. I believe it when you say you’ve always been a ‘moderate’. However, you’ve really been going off the deep end the last few days and I can only attribute it to fear over Palin’s nomination and the energizing effect it has had on the electorate. ---
**Author:** ![Jamaika\_a\_jamaikaiake](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/j/7993a0/32.png) [@Jamaika\_a\_jamaikaiake](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Jamaika_a_jamaikaiake)\ **Post date:** [September 4, 2008, 7:12pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/ok-beeyotches-youve-made-up-my-mind-for-me/462002/151 "2008-09-04T19:12:02Z")
> [@Dead\_Badger](#): > > You want post-partisanship? Then support the candidate whose policies you prefer, but do it in the style you profess to desire. Ignore the bullshit artists, and debate with the sane; they do exist, you know. [snip] Maybe you will be pissing in the wind, but if you really do give a hoot about dignified politics, you’ll at least feel better about yourself. If, on the other hand, you just want to pretend to be holier-than-thou while continuing business as usual… I’ve only edited the above so that I can have it for circumstances more general than this thread. Thank you, **Dead Badger** , for putting my feelings into words. ---
**Author:** ![Subterraneanus](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/a183cd/32.png) [@Subterraneanus](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Subterraneanus)\ **Post date:** [September 4, 2008, 7:12pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/ok-beeyotches-youve-made-up-my-mind-for-me/462002/152 "2008-09-04T19:12:34Z")
_And so I go my fearful way betwixt heaven and earth and all their active forces; and all I can see is a monster, forever devouring, regurgitating, chewing and gorging."_ — Goethe ---
**Author:** ![Bosstone](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/22d042/32.png) [@Bosstone](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Bosstone)\ **Post date:** [September 4, 2008, 7:14pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/ok-beeyotches-youve-made-up-my-mind-for-me/462002/153 "2008-09-04T19:14:24Z")
> [@TVeblen](#): > > I say that as a moderate and an Independent. As much as I admire your passion on this, the quoted bit is as hard to swallow as **Weirddave** ’s claim of being a moderate. ---
**Author:** ![Starving\_Artist](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/aeb1de/32.png) [@Starving\_Artist](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Starving_Artist)\ **Post date:** [September 4, 2008, 7:22pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/ok-beeyotches-youve-made-up-my-mind-for-me/462002/154 "2008-09-04T19:22:19Z")
> [@Starving\_Artist](#): > > Let me see if I can condense that for ya: > > Pubbies have fucked up, ergo all future pubbies will fuck up, so if you’re really a conservative, you have no choice but to vote liberal or be an asshole! > > But having said that, I honestly never have seen this side of you before. I believe it when you say you’ve always been a ‘moderate’. However, you’ve really been going off the deep end the last few days and I can only attribute it to fear over Palin’s nomination and the energizing effect it has had on the electorate. I should have said “Let me see if I can condense that for ya, **TVeblen**.” I didn’t notice I had hit the post button rather than the reply button. Sorry for any confusion, **DarkSide** and **Tomba**. ---
**Author:** ![fluiddruid](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/f/c2a13f/32.png) [@fluiddruid](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/fluiddruid)\ **Post date:** [September 4, 2008, 7:22pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/ok-beeyotches-youve-made-up-my-mind-for-me/462002/155 "2008-09-04T19:22:22Z")
> [@Starving\_Artist](#): > > Let me see if I can condense that for ya: > > Pubbies have fucked up, ergo all future pubbies will fuck up, so if you’re really a conservative, you have no choice but to vote liberal or be an asshole! That’s retarded. We’re talking about accountability and not electing someone who openly supports G. W. Bush. If McCain were running on a platform of reforming his party, that would be fine. But he’s not, and it’s ridiculous to say that we should expect him to be fundamentally different when he’s not even marketing himself as such. Look, I am more conservative than I used to be. I sympathize, but do not wholly agree, with conservative fiscal policy and my libertarian side makes me take issue with the Dems at times. But, I simply in good conscience cannot do that - the Republican party has been totally taken over by the religious right on one hand and horribly corrupt corporate spin-doctors on the other for whom any means necessary is the only rule. I can see myself voting Republican when and if the GOP starts holding their candidates to a higher standard (well, and starts running on true conservatism rather than neo-con pander-to-the-religious-zealots bullshit). That hasn’t happened and probably won’t as long as people continue to tow the party line regardless what’s happened - in this case, massive misuse of the public’s trust. ---
**Author:** ![Starving\_Artist](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/aeb1de/32.png) [@Starving\_Artist](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Starving_Artist)\ **Post date:** [September 4, 2008, 7:26pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/ok-beeyotches-youve-made-up-my-mind-for-me/462002/156 "2008-09-04T19:26:01Z")
**fluiddruid** , unfortunately work calls and I have to leave. I’d like to address some of the points you make (the answers are not quite so simple and cut-and-dried as you might think) and I’ll try to keep them in mind for when I return later. ---
**Author:** ![A\_shameful\_cracka](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/ebca7d/32.png) [@A\_shameful\_cracka](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/A_shameful_cracka)\ **Post date:** [September 4, 2008, 7:26pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/ok-beeyotches-youve-made-up-my-mind-for-me/462002/157 "2008-09-04T19:26:10Z")
> [@Auntbeast](#): > > Creationist Barbie? > > I don’t consider myself a democrat or republican. And I have to be honest, if Palin is the best possible VP candidate they can come up with, the republicans are in a sorry state. Really, the best? If she isn’t the best possible, then why is she there? That is the question I’m asking myself. There are always reasons, the question is what are the reasons? That’s what I was asking myself the other night when they had the governor of Hawaii talking about how great Palin is. Here is a Republican governor of a state who has been in office much longer than Palin, runs a much more populous state, was mayor of Maui prior to being governor, and was the first Republican governor in the history of her state, a traditionally Democratic stronghold. Oh yeah, and she’s a woman too. Why was she passed over? ---
**Author:** ![bup](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/6bbea6/32.png) [@bup](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/bup)\ **Post date:** [September 4, 2008, 7:27pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/ok-beeyotches-youve-made-up-my-mind-for-me/462002/158 "2008-09-04T19:27:49Z")
> [@Taber](#): > > Can I get a show of hands as to who actually thought Bricker was going to vote Obama? _raises hand_ I hope you don’t follow through on trash-talking if McCain wins, **Bricker**. That will actively work against the changes you’d like to see. ---
**Author:** ![TVeblen](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/4bbf92/32.png) [@TVeblen](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/TVeblen)\ **Post date:** [September 4, 2008, 7:28pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/ok-beeyotches-youve-made-up-my-mind-for-me/462002/159 "2008-09-04T19:28:34Z")
> [@Starving\_Artist](#): > > Let me see if I can condense that for ya: > > Pubbies have fucked up, ergo all future pubbies will fuck up, so if you’re really a conservative, you have no choice but to vote liberal or be an asshole! > > But having said that, I honestly never have seen this side of you before. I believe it when you say you’ve always been a ‘moderate’. However, you’ve really been going off the deep end the last few days and I can only attribute it to fear over Palin’s nomination and the energizing effect it has had on the electorate. Bullshit. Principled conservatives were betrayed by McCain. Simple enough for you? He took the stale joke of a ‘Big Tent’–remember that knee-slapper?–and _made it worse_. McCain had a chance, a real chance, to be a maverick in fact and clean up some of the shit left over by Rove/Shrub. Get it yet? I’m furious that McCain whored himself out, right back to the assassination politics **Bricker** cried so many tears over, and then removed any hope of restoring power to Republican middle by appointing a ridiculously unqualified, near-lunatic level religious fanatic. McCain the whore just made a bad problem worse. He shit on his own party; he took a massive, reeking shit right on top of conservatives. I’m pissed as hell, at him and anybody else who decides to continue the neocon assassinations because I’d hoped it was fucking _over_. The tactics and extreme polarization were _never_ excusable and **Bricker’s** convenient amnesia about that makes him just another whore. Oh, and so does his inane “You meanies made me do it” tactic. ---
**Author:** ![Shayna](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/shayna/32/17976_2.png) [@Shayna](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Shayna)\ **Post date:** [September 4, 2008, 7:31pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/ok-beeyotches-youve-made-up-my-mind-for-me/462002/160 "2008-09-04T19:31:11Z")
> [@Bricker](#): > > Read carefully, please. > > Consider the election as a balance scale. > > On on side, heaped together, are the issues – Iraq, economy, appointment of Supreme Court justices, social policy – that appear in every campaign. With few exceptions, all these tilt the arrow of the scale sharply towards McCain. > > The ONLY reason I considered voting for Obama was the idea that by his example, campaigning would be transformed. That was one LARGE block on the other side of the balance scale, and it caused the scale to tip pretty well even. > > Now the large block is removed, since I see it’s false. > > I’m left with the traditional reasons to support a candidate: agreement with the candidate on major policy issues. I see now that no matter who I support, assassination politics will continue, so that possibility is removed from consideration. It was not about _campaining_ and how it would be performed. It was about how he would move the national discourse on _issues_. [ > [@Bricker](#): > > I had read this language from Senator Obama earlier, and it left me with great admiration for the man. He’s right. He’s not right about the issue of abortion, of course. But he’s right about how we should approach our discourse about abortion, and indeed about many other contentious issues. Part of being in a religiously-neutral democratic republic is, as he cogently and persuasively points out, is that we religiously-minded voters must articulate our proposals for public policy on the basis of universal values, rather than religion-specific values, if we wish to persuade others to accept them. > > Senator Obama understands that when this does not happen, we end up with the religiously-minded demonizing their opposition as amoral or immoral, and the opposition demonizing the religious as sheep, or fascists, as the case may be. > > In this thread, we see two different issues intersecting. Obviously, the Catholic Church has every right to offer or deny communion to its members on whatever basis it wishes. But that’s not an argument, or a platform, upon which public policy can or should be based. > > In this thread, anti-Catholic haters are quick to toss barbs at the Church. This is uncalled-for, and of course receives little rebuke on this board. But Senator Obama’s words do no such thing – instead they lay the framework for reasoned and respectful debate on the issue. That’s not only admirable – it’s relatively unique in the political world. > > I haven’t made up my mind who I’m voting for this fall. But if I vote for Senator Obama, it will be because, even though he does not favor most of my political goals, he brings an integrity to the process that I would like to encourage across the board. And for 2008, that may well be my “single-issue” voter position. ]([http://boards.straightdope.com/sdmb/showpost.php?p=9867485&postcount=43](http://boards.straightdope.com/sdmb/showpost.php?p=9867485&postcount=43)) You seem to have rather lofty and unattainable expectations there, Rick. Did you really think that after decades of contentious debate about some of our most divisive topics, that Barack Obama was going to magically change the tone in a matter of 6 months, and _without the benefit of being our nation’s actual leader_ yet? I don’t think your mind change has anything to do with thinking Obama’s message is suddenly unworkable. I think it’s because you’re pissed off that there’s been so much negative attention crammed into such a short window about someone on your own side. It’s interesting that you’re only now so angry because it’s being directed towards Sarah Palin. I’m wondering how you felt about all the **exact same arguments** being made by those on your side about Barack Obama and/or Hillary Clinton. [Here’s some back-to-back clips](http://www.thedailyshow.com/video/index.jhtml?videoId=184086&title=sarah-palin-gender-card) for your consideration. Yes, it’s the Daily Show, which is comedy. But ignore the messenger and look at the actual content to understand why some of us on _this_ side are so fucking annoyed. You’re smart enough to know that not only does the kind of change that Barack Obama’s talking about, take time – lots of time, but also the _pulpit_ from which to execute it. If what you really, genuinely want, is the kind of atmosphere Barack Obama is offering, then it is as incumbent upon you as it is on any of the rest of us, to pony up and be a participant and not fall back into old habits and ideologies. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/ok-beeyotches-youve-made-up-my-mind-for-me/462002.md?page=7) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/ok-beeyotches-youve-made-up-my-mind-for-me/462002.md?page=9)