# Ok, I agree...Bush is a frigging moron (Bush Signs Schiavo Bill) **URL:** \ **Category:** The BBQ Pit\ **Created:** [March 21, 2005, 5:30pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/ok-i-agree-bush-is-a-frigging-moron-bush-signs-schiavo-bill/295591 "2005-03-21T17:30:14Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 5
**Author:** ![av8rmike](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/edb3f5/32.png) [@av8rmike](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/av8rmike)\ **Post date:** [March 22, 2005, 8:55pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/ok-i-agree-bush-is-a-frigging-moron-bush-signs-schiavo-bill/295591/81 "2005-03-22T20:55:51Z")
> [@SiouxChief](#): > > If Terri had made her wishes more clear, we’d never have heard of her. Tube removal happens a lot, with no fanfare, as we all know. That may not be true… I wish I had a cite for this, but I read somewhere in the deluge that Terry’s father had admitted under oath at one point, that he’d still be pursuing this course of action _even if_ there was a living will. If that’s true, then this case is certainly about anything but Terry Schiavo’s wishes. ---
**Author:** ![Apos](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/838e76/32.png) [@Apos](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Apos)\ **Post date:** [March 22, 2005, 9:00pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/ok-i-agree-bush-is-a-frigging-moron-bush-signs-schiavo-bill/295591/82 "2005-03-22T21:00:53Z")
> [@Bricker](#): > > His only reason for finding Meyer less credible than Schiavo was factually worng. This was not his only reason. This issue was, in fact, granted a rare hearing by Greer in which he heard further arguments, and found that while he had erred, it was NOT the sole reason for finding Meyer less credible, and indeed was irrelevant to the reasoning used. > [@](#): > > Based on that, sitting as an appellate judge, I woulod have found that Judge Greer took implied judicial notice of a “fact” that was untrue, and abused his discretion when he found Michael Schiavo more credible than Diane Meyer. Judges make mistakes in their reasoning all the time. But not all mistakes are so important that they call for a rehearing or reconsideration of the case. Greer found that it was not so, and no higher court has disagreed with him or found that he abused his discretion in a way that fataly impacted his decision or caused him to violate due process. In fact, I don’t even believe that Terri’s parents are still making this argument. ---
**Author:** ![elucidator](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/8edcca/32.png) [@elucidator](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/elucidator)\ **Post date:** [March 22, 2005, 9:12pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/ok-i-agree-bush-is-a-frigging-moron-bush-signs-schiavo-bill/295591/83 "2005-03-22T21:12:22Z")
I really don’t get the Fundy position on this. Ms. Shiavo is a soul trapped in a mound of useless meat. If she’s bound for Heaven, well, sooner the better, no? If there is some technical sin involved in hustling her on her way, I think the compassionate motivation would count for a lot in making an appeal to Judge Jesus. Very forgiving fellow, from all accounts. ---
**Author:** ![eleanorigby](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/ee7513/32.png) [@eleanorigby](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/eleanorigby)\ **Post date:** [March 22, 2005, 9:17pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/ok-i-agree-bush-is-a-frigging-moron-bush-signs-schiavo-bill/295591/84 "2005-03-22T21:17:33Z")
> [@Mike H](#): > > Al Haig? Good idea! “As of right now, I’m in charge here… at the hospice” > > 🙂 Hee. I meant the International court–located in Brussels, no? (Haige? Hauge? Hell-I’m illiterate!) 😛 ---
**Author:** ![Frank](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/f/3d9bf3/32.png) [@Frank](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Frank)\ **Post date:** [March 22, 2005, 9:24pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/ok-i-agree-bush-is-a-frigging-moron-bush-signs-schiavo-bill/295591/85 "2005-03-22T21:24:05Z")
> [@eleanorigby](#): > > Hee. I meant the International court–located in Brussels, no? (Haige? Hauge? Hell-I’m illiterate!) > > 😛 The city named the Hague is co-capital of the Netherlands. There, at least I’ve accomplished something in all these threads. ---
**Author:** ![eleanorigby](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/ee7513/32.png) [@eleanorigby](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/eleanorigby)\ **Post date:** [March 22, 2005, 9:26pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/ok-i-agree-bush-is-a-frigging-moron-bush-signs-schiavo-bill/295591/86 "2005-03-22T21:26:38Z")
\ how embarrassing. :smack: ---
**Author:** ![Bricker](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/977dab/32.png) [@Bricker](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Bricker)\ **Post date:** [March 22, 2005, 9:26pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/ok-i-agree-bush-is-a-frigging-moron-bush-signs-schiavo-bill/295591/87 "2005-03-22T21:26:38Z")
> [@plnnr](#): > > I could have sworn I hit “submit,” but evidently not… > > Didn’t the State of Florida do just this in passing “Terry’s Law,” which was subsequently struck down by a unanimous decision of the Florida Supreme Court as violating the Florida Constitution (based on the separation of powers contained in the Florida Constitution, and staying silent on the question of whether Terry Schiavo should live or die)? Yes, so the state of Florida has spoken. I don’t agree with the results, but they have spoken and that’s that. > [@Apos](#): > > Judges make mistakes in their reasoning all the time. But not all mistakes are so important that they call for a rehearing or reconsideration of the case. Greer found that it was not so, and no higher court has disagreed with him or found that he abused his discretion in a way that fataly impacted his decision or caused him to violate due process. In fact, I don’t even believe that Terri’s parents are still making this argument. That’s true. I said, “If _I_ were an appellate judge…” I grant that others - who are actually judges - may not be persuaded by my reasoning. And I have read Judge Greer’s findings after the second hearing, and, frankly, found them self-serving. If the present tense business was not remotely dispositive, why did he devote several sentences to it in his original findings? Moreover, that was the ONLY item he pointed to as a reason for finding Meyer less credible than Schiavo. After the fact, he claims that it didn’t make a difference - I think that’s blatant ass-covering. He clearly relied on that “error” to distinguish the witnesses’ stories; you have only to read the original words to see that: > [@Judge Greer](#): > > A witness called by Respondents testified to similar conversations with Terri Schiavo but stated that they occurred during the summer of 1982. **While that witness appeared believable** at the offset, the court noted two quotes from the discussion between she and Terri Schiavo which raise serious questions about the time frame. Both quotes are in the present tense and upon cross-examination, the witness did not alter them. The first quote involved a bad joke and used the verb “is”. The second quote involved the response from Terri Schiavo which used the word “are”. The court is mystified as to how those present tense verbs would have been used some six years after the death of Karen Ann Quinlin. The joke, in case you’re wondering: “What is the state vegetable of New Jersey? Karen Ann Quinlan.” ---
**Author:** ![John\_Mace](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/john_mace/32/185_2.png) [@John\_Mace](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/John_Mace)\ **Post date:** [March 22, 2005, 10:19pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/ok-i-agree-bush-is-a-frigging-moron-bush-signs-schiavo-bill/295591/88 "2005-03-22T22:19:30Z")
> [@This Year's Model](#): > > The city named the Hague is co-capital of the Netherlands. There, at least I’ve accomplished something in all these threads. Alas, no. It’s The Hague, capital “T” (or _Den Haag_, if you prefer the Dutch name. 🙂 ) ---
**Author:** ![wolf\_meister](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/wolf_meister/32/15202_2.png) [@wolf\_meister](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/wolf_meister)\ **Post date:** [March 23, 2005, 2:25am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/ok-i-agree-bush-is-a-frigging-moron-bush-signs-schiavo-bill/295591/89 "2005-03-23T02:25:46Z")
Wow just when I thought I’d stop participating in Bush-Bashing threads, our nutcase turnip-IQ Commander In Chief has to pull this shit? As **Cisco** said: \*How many people did W. execute as the govenor of Texas? \* Oh yeah, Dubya truly values the sanctity of life. No wait … on second thought he does value it. Didn’t he keep his ass safely in the USA with about 0% chance of being his being sent to Vietnam while the war was going full tilt? He truly values the sanctity of life … his own !!! And Dubya, while you are at it, why not visit the friends and relatives of the over 1,000 military men and women who died because of the war _you_ started? And as **Kimstu** said: \*I don’t see any way Bush could have let this go without seeming to undercut his brother and his supporters. \* Sure, if we know anything about the Bush family, they sure as Hell help one another. Didn’t Dad help get “Dubya” into Yale ? … the Texas Nat’l Guard ? … the PRESIDENCY !!! And isn’t “Dubya” one of them thar “keep Big Guvment outta my life” believers? It’s nice to see the way he adheres to that belief. :rolleyes: ---
**Author:** ![brownie55](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/f14d63/32.png) [@brownie55](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/brownie55)\ **Post date:** [March 23, 2005, 2:44am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/ok-i-agree-bush-is-a-frigging-moron-bush-signs-schiavo-bill/295591/90 "2005-03-23T02:44:41Z")
> [@SiouxChief](#): > > No, the husband doesn’t want his wife to have the tubes. The parents and siblings want Terri to have the tubes. The government is allowing the parents to file suit in district court so the case can be heard…again. > > If Terri had made her wishes more clear, we’d never have heard of her. Tube removal happens a lot, with no fanfare, as we all know. > > Don’t worry, eventually you’ll get your wish 😉 Man, it’s not his wish, the evidence says it’s her wish. ---
**Author:** ![Frank](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/f/3d9bf3/32.png) [@Frank](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Frank)\ **Post date:** [March 23, 2005, 2:53am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/ok-i-agree-bush-is-a-frigging-moron-bush-signs-schiavo-bill/295591/91 "2005-03-23T02:53:17Z")
> [@John Mace](#): > > Alas, no. It’s The Hague, capital “T” (or _Den Haag_, if you prefer the Dutch name. 🙂 ) The city known as the Hague (or _den Haag_, if you prefer) made its wishes known that it prefer to be spelled with a small “t” ages ago. Amsterdam was just too stoned to remember. ---
**Author:** ![Sample\_the\_Dog](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/8797f3/32.png) [@Sample\_the\_Dog](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Sample_the_Dog)\ **Post date:** [March 23, 2005, 4:17am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/ok-i-agree-bush-is-a-frigging-moron-bush-signs-schiavo-bill/295591/92 "2005-03-23T04:17:20Z")
Now that I’m no longer a Republican, I guess I can rail a little… There’s been a lot of propaganda about “activist judges”. Well, now that the court has come down on the side of narrow interpretation of the law and refusal to intervene, let’s see what the rhetoric is from the knee-jerk right regarding that decision. Frankly, I don’t understand the allegedly “pro-life” stance of the Christian right on this matter. There is nothing in the Bible to support the idea that life should be extended as long as humanly possible. ---
**Author:** ![pantom](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/p/34f0e0/32.png) [@pantom](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/pantom)\ **Post date:** [March 23, 2005, 4:21am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/ok-i-agree-bush-is-a-frigging-moron-bush-signs-schiavo-bill/295591/93 "2005-03-23T04:21:41Z")
Yeah, that’s the part I really don’t understand. I read somewhere that they’d have to do surgery to get that tube back down her throat. The poor woman has been kept barely alive for fifteen years so that her parents can flog their obsession, and now they want to invade her battered body yet again, and they claim this is somehow “pro-life”. There is no way in a million years I could even begin to understand how you could twist that around into a “pro-life” action. ---
**Author:** ![Larry\_Mudd](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/l/f14d63/32.png) [@Larry\_Mudd](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Larry_Mudd)\ **Post date:** [March 23, 2005, 5:51am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/ok-i-agree-bush-is-a-frigging-moron-bush-signs-schiavo-bill/295591/94 "2005-03-23T05:51:07Z")
> [@pantom](#): > > I read somewhere that they’d have to do surgery to get that tube back down her throat. The tube doesn’t go down her throat. It goes in through the abdomen, and directly into the stomach. Look [here](http://www.oralcancerfoundation.org/dental/tube_feeding.htm) for more info on tube-feeding, including photos. (Nothing too unsettling.) ---
**Author:** ![Arnold\_Winkelried](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/3d9bf3/32.png) [@Arnold\_Winkelried](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Arnold_Winkelried)\ **Post date:** [March 23, 2005, 6:04am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/ok-i-agree-bush-is-a-frigging-moron-bush-signs-schiavo-bill/295591/95 "2005-03-23T06:04:24Z")
> [@SiouxChief](#): > > It is not hypocritical to support the death penalty for murderers, and life for the innocent. What is hypocritical is for George W. Bush to have signed into law (as governor of Texas) a bill that allows a hospital to remove a patient from life support, even _against the family’s wishes_ (See the post by yanceylebeef on page 1, and also the Los Angeles Times on 22 March 2005) and then approve a law to prevent it for Terry Schiavo. Of course, in the Texas case, the reason to pull the plug on the six-month-old baby was financial (the parents couldn’t afford the medical care), so perhaps that makes it more excusable in his eyes? I’m sure that the next time this is about to happen in Texas, our president will rush back to the White House and try and convince Congress to pass a law allowing the federal courts to intervene. ---
**Author:** ![Arnold\_Winkelried](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/3d9bf3/32.png) [@Arnold\_Winkelried](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Arnold_Winkelried)\ **Post date:** [March 23, 2005, 6:12am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/ok-i-agree-bush-is-a-frigging-moron-bush-signs-schiavo-bill/295591/96 "2005-03-23T06:12:47Z")
[Los Angeles Times article](http://www.latimes.com/news/nationworld/nation/la-na-bush22mar22,1,7793371.story) (free registration required, link may soon expire) «At Texas Children’s Hospital, a 6-month-old boy, born with a fatal form of dwarfism in which his lungs were too small to support his small body, died shortly after his breathing tube was removed. His mother objected but could find no facility willing to care for the boy.» ---
**Author:** ![World\_Eater](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/w/f04885/32.png) [@World\_Eater](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/World_Eater)\ **Post date:** [March 23, 2005, 6:15am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/ok-i-agree-bush-is-a-frigging-moron-bush-signs-schiavo-bill/295591/97 "2005-03-23T06:15:38Z")
> [@Arnold Winkelried](#): > > [Los Angeles Times article](http://www.latimes.com/news/nationworld/nation/la-na-bush22mar22,1,7793371.story) (free registration required, link may soon expire) > «At Texas Children’s Hospital, a 6-month-old boy, born with a fatal form of dwarfism in which his lungs were too small to support his small body, died shortly after his breathing tube was removed. His mother objected but could find no facility willing to care for the boy.» IIRC this was recently too. ---
**Author:** ![Diogenes\_the\_Cynic](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/e99b99/32.png) [@Diogenes\_the\_Cynic](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Diogenes_the_Cynic)\ **Post date:** [March 23, 2005, 6:39am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/ok-i-agree-bush-is-a-frigging-moron-bush-signs-schiavo-bill/295591/98 "2005-03-23T06:39:00Z")
> [@World Eater](#): > > IIRC this was recently too. [The same night Bush signed the bill](http://www.concordmonitor.com/apps/pbcs.dll/article?AID=/20050322/REPOSITORY/503220311/1224) > [@](#): > > On the same day President Bush interrupted his vacation and rushed to Washington to sign the Schiavo bill, a Texas hospital removed the breathing tube keeping 6-month-old Sun Hudson alive. According to The Houston Chronicle,the hospital’s action, the first of its kind, was made possible by a 1999 bill signed into law by Bush, then Texas’s governor. > > That law allows hospitals to discontinue life-sustaining care **even when doing so runs counter to the wishes of the patient’s guardians.** Before ending the patient’s life under the law Bush signed, however, two conditions must be met. Doctors must deem that there is no chance for recovery **and the patient must be unable to pay the hospital bill for continuing care.** Life’s not so sacred to Shrub when it can’t pay the bills. ---
**Author:** ![SiouxChief](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/d6d6ee/32.png) [@SiouxChief](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/SiouxChief)\ **Post date:** [March 23, 2005, 8:05am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/ok-i-agree-bush-is-a-frigging-moron-bush-signs-schiavo-bill/295591/99 "2005-03-23T08:05:39Z")
> [@Arnold Winkelried](#): > > What is hypocritical is for George W. Bush to have signed into law (as governor of Texas) a bill that allows a hospital to remove a patient from life support, … and then approve a law to prevent it for Terry Schiavo. The law he signed regarding Terri did not, and does not prevent the removal of any patient from life support. Did you read it? Look, George W. Bush is not a saint, nor is he perfect (yeah, I know, understatement of the day, blah blah blah). He’s done plenty of questionable things in the past. BUT this time, with the Terri law, what he did was not so bad. Sure, it’s fun to jump down his throat for everything. But in this case I think some people are overreacting. I can’t wait to hear you guys when W celebrates the birth of his first grandchild. “Hypocrite! Unbelievable! Shrub does it again! Acting like he cares about life when CLEARLY…” blah blah blah Give it a rest. ---
**Author:** ![infamousmom](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/i/d6d6ee/32.png) [@infamousmom](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/infamousmom)\ **Post date:** [March 23, 2005, 8:23am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/ok-i-agree-bush-is-a-frigging-moron-bush-signs-schiavo-bill/295591/100 "2005-03-23T08:23:56Z")
Serious questions and substantial doubts? Well, all righty then! Get those soldiers out of Iraq now! Choose life! Before too many more of us have even more serious questions and substantial doubts! I bet the families of the people who died because of Dubya’s notion that one loses all right to life when one enlists are just thrilled to be chipping in for fuel for Air Force One this past weekend. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/ok-i-agree-bush-is-a-frigging-moron-bush-signs-schiavo-bill/295591.md?page=4) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/ok-i-agree-bush-is-a-frigging-moron-bush-signs-schiavo-bill/295591.md?page=6)