# Ok, I give up: What is with the tension between "FYR" Macedonia and Greece Proper? **URL:** \ **Category:** Great Debates\ **Created:** [March 4, 2011, 6:05pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/ok-i-give-up-what-is-with-the-tension-between-fyr-macedonia-and-greece-proper/573500 "2011-03-04T18:05:23Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 3
**Author:** ![lemac](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/l/f19dbf/32.png) [@lemac](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/lemac)\ **Post date:** [March 7, 2011, 8:30pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/ok-i-give-up-what-is-with-the-tension-between-fyr-macedonia-and-greece-proper/573500/41 "2011-03-07T20:30:46Z")
> [@Hypnagogic\_Jerk](#): > > What he means is that modern Greeks are closely ethnically related to modern Slavs (South Slavs at least). Slavic is an ethno-linguistic group, it can refer both to the languages and to the ethnicities. > > Aren’t Romanians also closely related to Slavs, despite them speaking a non-Slavic language? I don’t really understand how that would make the Greeks Slavic. I have no doubt that the Greeks are closely related to the peoples that surround them, but why would all these peoples be called Slavic? Why not call all of them Greek instead? Or Romanian, or Thracian, or Illyrian…? ---
**Author:** ![Acsenray](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/acsenray/32/4519_2.png) [@Acsenray](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Acsenray)\ **Post date:** [March 7, 2011, 8:37pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/ok-i-give-up-what-is-with-the-tension-between-fyr-macedonia-and-greece-proper/573500/42 "2011-03-07T20:37:48Z")
The reason is that modern Greeks are (mostly) descendant from the same people that modern Slavs are descendant from, rather than from ancient Greeks. ---
**Author:** ![smiling\_bandit](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/e9a140/32.png) [@smiling\_bandit](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/smiling_bandit)\ **Post date:** [March 7, 2011, 8:46pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/ok-i-give-up-what-is-with-the-tension-between-fyr-macedonia-and-greece-proper/573500/43 "2011-03-07T20:46:36Z")
> [@lemac](#): > > I don’t really understand how that would make the Greeks Slavic. I have no doubt that the Greeks are closely related to the peoples that surround them, but why would all these peoples be called Slavic? Why not call all of them Greek instead? Or Romanian, or Thracian, or Illyrian…? Why do we call France France, or Germany Germany? ---
**Author:** ![Polycarp](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/p/82dd89/32.png) [@Polycarp](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Polycarp)\ **Post date:** [March 7, 2011, 8:53pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/ok-i-give-up-what-is-with-the-tension-between-fyr-macedonia-and-greece-proper/573500/44 "2011-03-07T20:53:26Z")
It’s simple: Greece remembers what happened to Greek independence the last time they had [an independent Macedonia](http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Macedonia_%28ancient_kingdom%29) to the north of them. 😃 ---
**Author:** ![Peremensoe](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/p/ce7236/32.png) [@Peremensoe](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Peremensoe)\ **Post date:** [March 7, 2011, 9:03pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/ok-i-give-up-what-is-with-the-tension-between-fyr-macedonia-and-greece-proper/573500/45 "2011-03-07T21:03:08Z")
If there were somehow a referendum within Greek Macedonia (not Greece as a whole) offering the possibility of the territory joining a Greater Macedonia, how many people would vote for it? ---
**Author:** ![newcomer](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/n/e5b9ba/32.png) [@newcomer](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/newcomer)\ **Post date:** [March 7, 2011, 9:08pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/ok-i-give-up-what-is-with-the-tension-between-fyr-macedonia-and-greece-proper/573500/46 "2011-03-07T21:08:43Z")
> [@acsenray](#): > > The reason is that modern Greeks are (mostly) descendant from the same people that modern Slavs are descendant from, rather than from ancient Greeks. Cite? ---
**Author:** ![Really\_Not\_All\_That\_Bright](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/e8c25b/32.png) [@Really\_Not\_All\_That\_Bright](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Really_Not_All_That_Bright)\ **Post date:** [March 7, 2011, 11:18pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/ok-i-give-up-what-is-with-the-tension-between-fyr-macedonia-and-greece-proper/573500/47 "2011-03-07T23:18:42Z")
> [@newcomer](#): > > Cite? [Make of this what you will](http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Slavic_peoples#Scenarios_of_ethnogenesis). To me it suggests that the opposite is true: that Macedonians are more Greek than Greeks are Slavic. ---
**Author:** ![Capitaine\_Zombie](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/e95f7d/32.png) [@Capitaine\_Zombie](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Capitaine_Zombie)\ **Post date:** [March 7, 2011, 11:23pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/ok-i-give-up-what-is-with-the-tension-between-fyr-macedonia-and-greece-proper/573500/48 "2011-03-07T23:23:09Z")
> [@Polycarp](#): > > It’s simple: Greece remembers what happened to Greek independence the last time they had [an independent Macedonia](http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Macedonia_%28ancient_kingdom%29) to the north of them. 😃 Nice. So the vainquished get the rights to the name of their conqueror? ---
**Author:** ![Pleonast](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/pleonast/32/1183_2.png) [@Pleonast](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Pleonast)\ **Post date:** [March 7, 2011, 11:40pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/ok-i-give-up-what-is-with-the-tension-between-fyr-macedonia-and-greece-proper/573500/49 "2011-03-07T23:40:54Z")
> [@Capitaine\_Zombie](#): > > Nice. So the vainquished get the rights to the name of their conqueror? Well, the Greeks were calling themselves the Roman Empire for quite a long time, too. ---
**Author:** ![Naxos](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/n/50afbb/32.png) [@Naxos](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Naxos)\ **Post date:** [March 8, 2011, 3:09am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/ok-i-give-up-what-is-with-the-tension-between-fyr-macedonia-and-greece-proper/573500/50 "2011-03-08T03:09:21Z")
> [@Little\_Nemo](#): > > Out of curiousity, if the name Macedonia is this central to Greek national identity, why didn’t they adopt the name when they broke free from Turkish rule? Call themselves the Kingdom of Makedonia instead of the Kingdom of Ellados and establish a prior claim to the name? For the same reason the United States of America did not call itself California. As far as your reference to the world “kingdom”, Greece (Ellada is the native name of the country) there were too many European kingdoms, mainly the German, the Russian and the British, that interfered with the politics of the area and each wanted to have a say to what will happen to this country after the native Greeks revolted against the 400 year occupation of the Turks. Greece has many other areas with distinctive names but the main name that was used since ancient times was Ellada - Greece. Macedonia is one part of it. ---
**Author:** ![Naxos](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/n/50afbb/32.png) [@Naxos](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Naxos)\ **Post date:** [March 8, 2011, 3:10am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/ok-i-give-up-what-is-with-the-tension-between-fyr-macedonia-and-greece-proper/573500/51 "2011-03-08T03:10:50Z")
> [@acsenray](#): > > And even more interesting that most Greeks are more Slavic than not. They just happen to speak a non-Slavic language. Ignorant stupidity. ---
**Author:** ![tomndebb](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/b9e5f3/32.png) [@tomndebb](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/tomndebb)\ **Post date:** [March 8, 2011, 6:03am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/ok-i-give-up-what-is-with-the-tension-between-fyr-macedonia-and-greece-proper/573500/52 "2011-03-08T06:03:11Z")
> [@Naxos](#): > > Ignorant stupidity. Do not post personal insults in Great Debates. Naxos, you have been admonished multiple times in the last few days to correct your behavior. This is a Warning that you are out of line. Stop it. [/Moderating] ---
**Author:** ![Little\_Nemo](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/little_nemo/32/3120_2.png) [@Little\_Nemo](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Little_Nemo)\ **Post date:** [March 8, 2011, 10:48am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/ok-i-give-up-what-is-with-the-tension-between-fyr-macedonia-and-greece-proper/573500/53 "2011-03-08T10:48:06Z")
> [@Naxos](#): > > For the same reason the United States of America did not call itself California. > > As far as your reference to the world “kingdom”, Greece (Ellada is the native name of the country) there were too many European kingdoms, mainly the German, the Russian and the British, that interfered with the politics of the area and each wanted to have a say to what will happen to this country after the native Greeks revolted against the 400 year occupation of the Turks. > > Greece has many other areas with distinctive names but the main name that was used since ancient times was Ellada - Greece. Macedonia is one part of it. Despite your hypothetical, nobody in America is trying to deny anyone else the use of the name California. If you’re saying the name Macedonia belongs to the Greeks, then the Greeks should have used it and named their country Macedonia. By choosing not to use it, they left it available for other people to use. As for my reference to the word “Kingdom” - that’s what the country called itself. Βασίλειον τῆς Ἑλλάδος - the Kingdom of Ellados. Greece was a Kingdom from 1832 to 1974 (with a republican break for nine years). ---
**Author:** ![Nava](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/n/da6949/32.png) [@Nava](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Nava)\ **Post date:** [March 8, 2011, 1:49pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/ok-i-give-up-what-is-with-the-tension-between-fyr-macedonia-and-greece-proper/573500/54 "2011-03-08T13:49:30Z")
> [@Naxos](#): > > For the same reason the United States of America did not call itself California. Doubtful, given that California wasn’t part of the newly-founded country which chose the name “United States of America”. The possibility didn’t exist. ---
**Author:** ![Acsenray](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/acsenray/32/4519_2.png) [@Acsenray](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Acsenray)\ **Post date:** [March 8, 2011, 2:30pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/ok-i-give-up-what-is-with-the-tension-between-fyr-macedonia-and-greece-proper/573500/55 "2011-03-08T14:30:03Z")
Nominee would have cared anyway, and there is still an important difference. FYR Macedonians have been using the term “Macedonian”'for a long time. The Greek position – that they are trying to “steal” someone else’s identity. You might as well accuse the Bulgarians and Romanians of that since their names originate in the names of other groups. There was even a significant period in which the Greeks called themselves “Rhomioi.” The Greek position is irrational and petulant. ---
**Author:** ![Anisos](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/96bed5/32.png) [@Anisos](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Anisos)\ **Post date:** [March 8, 2011, 8:46pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/ok-i-give-up-what-is-with-the-tension-between-fyr-macedonia-and-greece-proper/573500/56 "2011-03-08T20:46:45Z")
Ah… hello everyone, long time lurker here. I was born in Greece and witnessed the insane way that Greece dealt with the “macedonian issue” in the early 90s. It was a time of huge demonstrations against Skopje (which is the way Greece liked to refer to FYROM/Macedonia at the time), “fear” that we would go to war with our northern neighbors (if you can imagine that…), and an amazingly homogeneous outlook towards the issue. You have to understand that the modern Greek has been fed an amazing amount of propaganda through their schooling. I was fed all that as much as all average children growing up in Greece. Our books had anti-Turkish propaganda and produced an amazingly false picture of how Greece gained independence. For example… the role of the official church was entirely distorted to make it appear as a benefactor when it was not. Add on that the horrible Greek tendency of trying to walk forward while looking backwards. The Greek past for Greeks is EVERYTHING. We define ourselves by it, even though few have done any substantial reading about it. The culture of argument with our perceived enemies is of grade school level. “Read a book”, “we taught you democracy” etc. Nationalists of all varieties that find everything emanating from Greece (one of my favorite modern Greek writers calls this the “Portokalos paradigm”, named after one of the main characters in that horrible movie “My big fat Greek wedding”) are quite popular. By the way, nationalism of this particular sort is found both in the left (and when I say left I mean members of the communist party, not some generic leftist) and right. Antisemitism is everywhere. Even one of the brightest beacons of modern Greek history Mikis Theodorakis has become an antisemite of the worst kind. Outsiders, and by that I mean the rest of the West (with which Greece never aligned entirely), are considered manipulators. For example consider a fake quote that was supposedly said by Kissinger in some kind of official meeting. This quote has been making the rounds for many years and is considered by many to be the final proof that the USA (and the Jews of course) are out to get us: “The Greek people are anarchic and difficult to tame. For this reason we must strike deep into their cultural roots: Perhaps then we can force them to conform. I mean, of course, to strike at their language, their religion, their cultural and historical reserves, so that we can neutralize their ability to develop, to distinguish themselves, or to prevail; thereby removing them as an obstacle to our strategically vital plans in the Balkans, the Mediterranean, and the Middle East.” This quote has been proven to be fake. The supposed primary source had no such quote. Finally, someone personally asked Kissinger if he had said such a thing. He denied it. Nevertheless this is still a popular quote and will probably be until the end of time. This is the type of atmosphere that creates a person that will do anything possible to not allow Macedonians to name their country as they like to name it. It is amazing to me how much energy has been spent discussing this utterly ridiculous issue, how many otherwise respectable people has fallen in this trap, and how it simply wont go away. My opinion is that they can call themselves whatever they like. ---
**Author:** ![Pleonast](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/pleonast/32/1183_2.png) [@Pleonast](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Pleonast)\ **Post date:** [March 8, 2011, 9:52pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/ok-i-give-up-what-is-with-the-tension-between-fyr-macedonia-and-greece-proper/573500/57 "2011-03-08T21:52:43Z")
Thank you, (and welcome to the Dope), **Anisos** , for a rational Greek perspective. ---
**Author:** ![clairobscur](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/839c29/32.png) [@clairobscur](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/clairobscur)\ **Post date:** [March 9, 2011, 12:01am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/ok-i-give-up-what-is-with-the-tension-between-fyr-macedonia-and-greece-proper/573500/58 "2011-03-09T00:01:19Z")
Enlightening post,\*\* Anisos \*\*. ETA : Too bad you didn’t post in the threads about the Greek crisis. ---
**Author:** ![JRDelirious](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/jrdelirious/32/9531_2.png) [@JRDelirious](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/JRDelirious)\ **Post date:** [March 9, 2011, 1:14am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/ok-i-give-up-what-is-with-the-tension-between-fyr-macedonia-and-greece-proper/573500/59 "2011-03-09T01:14:59Z")
Thank you and welcome, **Anisos** > [@JRDelirious](#): > > Ah, nationalism… there’s one idea that needs to go into the wastebin mondo pronto… > [@Hypnagogic\_Jerk](#): > > I wouldn’t say that. I consider myself a nationalist, in the sense that my identity is largely derived from the national group I belong to. I suppose that your Puerto Rican nationality also informs your identity as a person. But as any other ideology, it can lead people to do good things, and it can lead people to do bad things. Ah, but you see, then we are using terms somewhat differently. To me, nationalism as the sociopolitical\* ideology\*, is distinct from awareness of historico-ethno-cultural identity (nationality), and I can have the latter while rejecting the former (Heck, I feel no particular urge for PR to be an independent sovereign nation-state, I’d support becoming a state of the US; and if we’re ever independent I’d wish we would have jus soli citizenship and liberal naturalization, rather than insist on “blood” citizenship). ---
**Author:** ![Little\_Nemo](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/little_nemo/32/3120_2.png) [@Little\_Nemo](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Little_Nemo)\ **Post date:** [March 9, 2011, 1:18am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/ok-i-give-up-what-is-with-the-tension-between-fyr-macedonia-and-greece-proper/573500/60 "2011-03-09T01:18:24Z")
> [@Anisos](#): > > You have to understand that the modern Greek has been fed an amazing amount of propaganda through their schooling. I was fed all that as much as all average children growing up in Greece. Our books had anti-Turkish propaganda and produced an amazingly false picture of how Greece gained independence. For example… the role of the official church was entirely distorted to make it appear as a benefactor when it was not. Add on that the horrible Greek tendency of trying to walk forward while looking backwards. The Greek past for Greeks is EVERYTHING. We define ourselves by it, even though few have done any substantial reading about it. It’s not like Greece has any need to exaggerate. The Greeks have a proud history by any objective standard. So why begrudge anyone else? [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/ok-i-give-up-what-is-with-the-tension-between-fyr-macedonia-and-greece-proper/573500.md?page=2) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/ok-i-give-up-what-is-with-the-tension-between-fyr-macedonia-and-greece-proper/573500.md?page=4)