# Ok, I give up: What is with the tension between "FYR" Macedonia and Greece Proper? **URL:** \ **Category:** Great Debates\ **Created:** [March 4, 2011, 6:05pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/ok-i-give-up-what-is-with-the-tension-between-fyr-macedonia-and-greece-proper/573500 "2011-03-04T18:05:23Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 4
**Author:** ![newcomer](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/n/e5b9ba/32.png) [@newcomer](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/newcomer)\ **Post date:** [March 9, 2011, 2:01am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/ok-i-give-up-what-is-with-the-tension-between-fyr-macedonia-and-greece-proper/573500/61 "2011-03-09T02:01:23Z")
> [@Little\_Nemo](#): > > It’s not like Greece has any need to exaggerate. The Greeks have a proud history by any objective standard. So why begrudge anyone else? You’re probably referring to the very old history but Greece’s recent history, say last 100 to 150 years, is a total mess. It starts really bad (Turkey), gets even worse (Germany, Italy, Bulgaria) and then ends up with a civil war where they were the first country West intervened to set it up as a front line in a Cold War. It’s actually pretty screwed up history so one can perhaps understand some of the thinking behind Macedonia issue even though, in this time and age, it is totally not justified. ---
**Author:** ![BrainGlutton](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/82dd89/32.png) [@BrainGlutton](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/BrainGlutton)\ **Post date:** [March 9, 2011, 2:20am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/ok-i-give-up-what-is-with-the-tension-between-fyr-macedonia-and-greece-proper/573500/62 "2011-03-09T02:20:05Z")
> [@Anisos](#): > > I was fed all that as much as all average children growing up in Greece. Our books had anti-Turkish propaganda . . . Why? I mean, American schoolbooks are not full of anti-British propaganda. > [@Anisos](#): > > Antisemitism is everywhere. Why? How many Jews are there in Greece today anyway? ---
**Author:** ![Anisos](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/96bed5/32.png) [@Anisos](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Anisos)\ **Post date:** [March 9, 2011, 3:25am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/ok-i-give-up-what-is-with-the-tension-between-fyr-macedonia-and-greece-proper/573500/63 "2011-03-09T03:25:42Z")
> [@Little\_Nemo](#): > > It’s not like Greece has any need to exaggerate. The Greeks have a proud history by any objective standard. So why begrudge anyone else? Modern Greeks feel like they own that history. Alexander the Great is OURS, Macedonia is OURS. For you to want to name yourself Macedonian is removing my “pride”. History is not objective business in Greece. I remember about ten years ago telling a much older woman (a doctor) about Washington DC government buildings. The first thing that she said was “Greek designs… all of it stolen” :smack: > [@BrainGlutton](#): > > Why? I mean, American schoolbooks are not full of anti-British propaganda. > > Why? How many Jews are there in Greece today anyway? Well… I don’t think it is fair to compare America-England with Greece-Turkey. To a degree, modern Greeks are a continuation of the East Roman empire which ceased to exist at 1453, taken over by the Turks, a very different situation from that of 18th century Americans. Also, the US is not close to England. Greece and Turkey have constant “confrontations” with jet-fighters and ships penetrating the borders, about a billion insignificant tiny little islands noone lives on that are being claimed by both sides, including one over which a war almost started in the mid-90s, the Cyprus separation issue (a deeply deeply traumatic story) among others. Having said that, relations with Turkey have significantly improved during the last 10 years. There has been an effort to improve school books. In fact there was a recent school book that was utterly blasted (especially by the right) because it softened some corners. It was discontinued. Thessalonica had a very substantial population of Jews before WWII. Mostly Sephardic Jews that arrived after their expulsion from Spain. The majority were sent to concentration camps. What I do know is that Greeks intensely identify with Palestinians and that Israeli Jews are seen as a type of oppressive overlord. Beyond that, I cannot entirely explain why anti-Semitism is doing so well in Greece. By the way. A big factor regarding the naming issue and other similar conflicts in North Greece is the fear that someone someday may find a legitimate way to change Greek borders, for example Macedonia encroaching into North Greece. Entirely irrational in my opinion. ---
**Author:** ![Sakuma\_Drops](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/50afbb/32.png) [@Sakuma\_Drops](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Sakuma_Drops)\ **Post date:** [March 9, 2011, 3:59am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/ok-i-give-up-what-is-with-the-tension-between-fyr-macedonia-and-greece-proper/573500/64 "2011-03-09T03:59:24Z")
> [@Anisos](#): > > Modern Greeks feel like they own that history. Alexander the Great is OURS, Macedonia is OURS. For you to want to name yourself Macedonian is removing my “pride”. History is not objective business in Greece. I remember about ten years ago telling a much older woman (a doctor) about Washington DC government buildings. The first thing that she said was “Greek designs… all of it stolen” :smack: Geez, you’d think people would be proud to see stuff built everywhere in the image of their culture. I mean, everywhere you look in this country there’s a little Greek temple! CLEARLY we adore Greece and are demonstrating their obvious architectural superiority. Imitation really IS the sincerest form of flattery. 😃 ---
**Author:** ![BrainGlutton](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/82dd89/32.png) [@BrainGlutton](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/BrainGlutton)\ **Post date:** [March 9, 2011, 4:12am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/ok-i-give-up-what-is-with-the-tension-between-fyr-macedonia-and-greece-proper/573500/65 "2011-03-09T04:12:48Z")
> [@Anisos](#): > > I remember about ten years ago telling a much older woman (a doctor) about Washington DC government buildings. The first thing that she said was “Greek designs… all of it stolen” :smack: What an idiot! American Federal architecture was stolen from the **Romans!** (Where **they** got it, who knows . . .) ---
**Author:** ![Kyla](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/k/eada6e/32.png) [@Kyla](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Kyla)\ **Post date:** [March 9, 2011, 3:55pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/ok-i-give-up-what-is-with-the-tension-between-fyr-macedonia-and-greece-proper/573500/66 "2011-03-09T15:55:47Z")
> [@BrainGlutton](#): > > Why? I mean, American schoolbooks are not full of anti-British propaganda. EVERYONE in the Balkans hates the Turks (except the Turks, naturally, who are, as far as I can tell, totally oblivious about this). Bulgarians refer to the Ottoman occupation as the “Tursko Robstvo”, which is usually translated as “Turkish Yoke”. It took me awhile to parse this phrase, but it literally means “Turkish _Slavery_.” It is extremely common to hear people talk about “when we were the slaves of the Turks,” that sort of thing. My Bulgarian teacher told me she’d gone to Turkey for the first time, and I asked her how it was. Now, she wasn’t some sheltered xenophobic villager; she had lived abroad and is a pretty cosmopolitan person. Her: Everywhere we went, when we told them where we were from, they called us “neighbor! neighbor!”\* Me: Oh, do Turks like Bulgarians, then? Her: Of course they do, they like to come here and steal our land and rape our women and make us slaves. Me: :eek: \*The Bulgarian word for “neighbor” is borrowed from Turkish (along with about a zillion other words), so they would have understood this easily. And when I went to Turkey, I generally told people I was from Bulgaria so they would know I was not wealthy, and I got the same “neighbor! neighbor!” treatment. ---
**Author:** ![Really\_Not\_All\_That\_Bright](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/e8c25b/32.png) [@Really\_Not\_All\_That\_Bright](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Really_Not_All_That_Bright)\ **Post date:** [March 9, 2011, 5:38pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/ok-i-give-up-what-is-with-the-tension-between-fyr-macedonia-and-greece-proper/573500/67 "2011-03-09T17:38:49Z")
> [@BrainGlutton](#): > > Why? I mean, American schoolbooks are not full of anti-British propaganda. That’s more to do with the nature of propaganda in the US v. Europe than anything else. Our schoolbooks are full of _pro-American_ propaganda, like more or less everything taught about the War of 1812 (though less so today than 50 years past). European propaganda tends to be more about rubbishing everyone else; ours is about talking up ourselves. ---
**Author:** ![Polerius](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/p/d78d45/32.png) [@Polerius](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Polerius)\ **Post date:** [March 9, 2011, 5:59pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/ok-i-give-up-what-is-with-the-tension-between-fyr-macedonia-and-greece-proper/573500/68 "2011-03-09T17:59:10Z")
> [@BrainGlutton](#): > > [QUOTE=Anisos] > I was fed all that as much as all average children growing up in Greece. Our books had anti-Turkish propaganda . . . Why? I mean, American schoolbooks are not full of anti-British propaganda. [/QUOTE] This has got to be the weirdest question I’ve seen on the Dope in a while, and especially surprising coming from **BrainGlutton**. Why do you think the US/British relationship is in _any_ way comparable to the Greece/Turkey relationship? Even if you look at the distant past, the relationship was different. But I think the main issue/differentiator is stuff that is going on in the present. Does the UK routinely fly military jets into US air space against US’s wishes? Do the UK and US have ongoing territorial disputes? Did the UK invade and occupy to this day a very close ally of the US? ---
**Author:** ![Really\_Not\_All\_That\_Bright](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/e8c25b/32.png) [@Really\_Not\_All\_That\_Bright](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Really_Not_All_That_Bright)\ **Post date:** [March 9, 2011, 6:06pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/ok-i-give-up-what-is-with-the-tension-between-fyr-macedonia-and-greece-proper/573500/69 "2011-03-09T18:06:19Z")
Well, the UK is currently occupying much of Iraq, which is now technically a US ally. 😉 ---
**Author:** ![Polerius](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/p/d78d45/32.png) [@Polerius](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Polerius)\ **Post date:** [March 9, 2011, 6:09pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/ok-i-give-up-what-is-with-the-tension-between-fyr-macedonia-and-greece-proper/573500/70 "2011-03-09T18:09:34Z")
> [@Really\_Not\_All\_That\_Bright](#): > > European propaganda tends to be more about rubbishing everyone else; ours is about talking up ourselves. Maybe what you say is true of US textbooks, but I think Americans are just as big on “rubbishing” everyone they are in conflict with. e.g. the Soviets when they were a threat, and the Arabs/Muslims they are in conflict with now. ---
**Author:** ![Capitaine\_Zombie](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/e95f7d/32.png) [@Capitaine\_Zombie](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Capitaine_Zombie)\ **Post date:** [March 9, 2011, 6:14pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/ok-i-give-up-what-is-with-the-tension-between-fyr-macedonia-and-greece-proper/573500/71 "2011-03-09T18:14:37Z")
> [@Anisos](#): > > What I do know is that Greeks intensely identify with Palestinians and that Israeli Jews are seen as a type of oppressive overlord. Beyond that, I cannot entirely explain why anti-Semitism is doing so well in Greece. That’s weird, you’d think for people still hating Turkey, identifying themselves with Muslims over Westerners in a conflict would sound strange. Anything to do with the Turkey-Israel axis? Or is it because the Palestinian conflict can not help but remind them of their own struggles against Turkey? P.S: BTW, **Brainglutton** , you said “Why? How many Jews are there in Greece today anyway?”, that’s weird. I dont think there’s a direct relation between antisemitism and having a large Jewish pop. ---
**Author:** ![Polerius](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/p/d78d45/32.png) [@Polerius](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Polerius)\ **Post date:** [March 9, 2011, 6:17pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/ok-i-give-up-what-is-with-the-tension-between-fyr-macedonia-and-greece-proper/573500/72 "2011-03-09T18:17:01Z")
> [@Anisos](#): > > For example consider a fake quote that was supposedly said by Kissinger in some kind of official meeting. This quote has been making the rounds for many years and is considered by many to be the final proof that the USA (and the Jews of course) are out to get us: > “The Greek people are anarchic and difficult to tame. For this reason we must strike deep into their cultural roots: Perhaps then we can force them to conform. I mean, of course, to strike at their language, their religion, their cultural and historical reserves, so that we can neutralize their ability to develop, to distinguish themselves, or to prevail; thereby removing them as an obstacle to our strategically vital plans in the Balkans, the Mediterranean, and the Middle East.” > This quote has been proven to be fake. The supposed primary source had no such quote. **Finally, someone personally asked Kissinger if he had said such a thing. He denied it**. Nevertheless this is still a popular quote and will probably be until the end of time. [Bolding mine] I agree that there are a lot of wacky conspiracy theories among Greeks, to an infuriating degree, but the above bolded statement is one of the funniest things I’ve read all week. So, someone asked Kissinger if he said something inflammatory/controversial and he denied it? Case closed! It means he never said it! (I’m not saying that he did make that statement, just the fact that he denies saying it doesn’t prove anything) ---
**Author:** ![Really\_Not\_All\_That\_Bright](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/e8c25b/32.png) [@Really\_Not\_All\_That\_Bright](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Really_Not_All_That_Bright)\ **Post date:** [March 9, 2011, 6:21pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/ok-i-give-up-what-is-with-the-tension-between-fyr-macedonia-and-greece-proper/573500/73 "2011-03-09T18:21:22Z")
> [@Polerius](#): > > Maybe what you say is true of US textbooks, but I think Americans are just as big on “rubbishing” everyone they are in conflict with. e.g. the Soviets when they were a threat, and the Arabs/Muslims they are in conflict with now. Well, not really. Americans didn’t rubbish the Soviets; they were _terrified_ of them. It wasn’t until after the Cold War that people figured that out. ---
**Author:** ![Polerius](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/p/d78d45/32.png) [@Polerius](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Polerius)\ **Post date:** [March 9, 2011, 6:23pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/ok-i-give-up-what-is-with-the-tension-between-fyr-macedonia-and-greece-proper/573500/74 "2011-03-09T18:23:50Z")
> [@Capitaine\_Zombie](#): > > That’s weird, you’d think for people still hating Turkey, identifying themselves with Muslims over Westerners in a conflict would sound strange. Anything to do with the Turkey-Israel axis? Or is it because the Palestinian conflict can not help but remind them of their own struggles against Turkey? They see it as follows: [ul] [li]A US ally, Turkey, is occupying a weaker country, Cyprus, with backing from the US (political backing and military equipment)[/li][li]A US ally, Israel, is occupying a weaker country/people, Palestine/Palestinians, with backing from the US (political backing and military equipment)[/li][/ul] So, it’s easy to see why Greeks would identify with Palestinians in the above conflict. ---
**Author:** ![Polerius](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/p/d78d45/32.png) [@Polerius](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Polerius)\ **Post date:** [March 9, 2011, 6:25pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/ok-i-give-up-what-is-with-the-tension-between-fyr-macedonia-and-greece-proper/573500/75 "2011-03-09T18:25:38Z")
> [@Really\_Not\_All\_That\_Bright](#): > > Well, not really. Americans didn’t rubbish the Soviets; they were _terrified_ of them. It wasn’t until after the Cold War that people figured that out. Well, people usually rubbish people they are terrified of. Don’t you think the current image Arabs/Muslims have in the US is a very bad one? And don’t you think that that is due to the fact that Americans are terrified of them? ---
**Author:** ![Capitaine\_Zombie](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/e95f7d/32.png) [@Capitaine\_Zombie](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Capitaine_Zombie)\ **Post date:** [March 9, 2011, 6:28pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/ok-i-give-up-what-is-with-the-tension-between-fyr-macedonia-and-greece-proper/573500/76 "2011-03-09T18:28:57Z")
> [@Polerius](#): > > They see it as follows: > [ul] > [li]A US ally, Turkey, is occupying a weaker country, Cyprus, with backing from the US (political backing and military equipment)[/li][li]A US ally, Israel, is occupying a weaker country/people, Palestine/Palestinians, with backing from the US (political backing and military equipment)[/li][/ul] > So, it’s easy to see why Greeks would identify with Palestinians in the above conflict. I totally doubt the identifying with Palestinians has anything to do with the Cyprus situation. ---
**Author:** ![Pleonast](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/pleonast/32/1183_2.png) [@Pleonast](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Pleonast)\ **Post date:** [March 9, 2011, 6:29pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/ok-i-give-up-what-is-with-the-tension-between-fyr-macedonia-and-greece-proper/573500/77 "2011-03-09T18:29:15Z")
> [@Kyla](#): > > EVERYONE in the Balkans hates the Turks (except the Turks, naturally, who are, as far as I can tell, totally oblivious about this). Bulgarians refer to the Ottoman occupation as the “Tursko Robstvo”, which is usually translated as “Turkish Yoke”. It took me awhile to parse this phrase, but it literally means “Turkish _Slavery_.” It is extremely common to hear people talk about “when we were the slaves of the Turks,” that sort of thing. Fun fact of the day: that word is cognate to our word “robot”. ---
**Author:** ![Anisos](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/96bed5/32.png) [@Anisos](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Anisos)\ **Post date:** [March 9, 2011, 6:31pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/ok-i-give-up-what-is-with-the-tension-between-fyr-macedonia-and-greece-proper/573500/78 "2011-03-09T18:31:41Z")
> [@Capitaine\_Zombie](#): > > That’s weird, you’d think for people still hating Turkey, identifying themselves with Muslims over Westerners in a conflict would sound strange. Anything to do with the Turkey-Israel axis? Or is it because the Palestinian conflict can not help but remind them of their own struggles against Turkey? > > P.S: BTW, **Brainglutton** , you said “Why? How many Jews are there in Greece today anyway?”, that’s weird. I dont think there’s a direct relation between antisemitism and having a large Jewish pop. Greece has had an excellent relationship with the Arab world. Andreas Papandreou who was a prime minister in the 80s and 90s had very very close ties with Arafat, Qaddafi (ah… in retrospect…) and other Arab leaders. The critical distinction is not Greece VS muslims, it is Greece VS Turkey. > [@Polerius](#): > > [Bolding mine] > I agree that there are a lot of wacky conspiracy theories among Greeks, to an infuriating degree, but the above bolded statement is one of the funniest things I’ve read all week. > > So, someone asked Kissinger if he said something inflammatory/controversial and he denied it? Case closed! It means he never said it! > > (I’m not saying that he did make that statement, just the fact that he denies saying it doesn’t prove anything) Ok… I suppose you can say that is the weaker of the available evidence. We all like to gang up on Kissinger about what an evil super villain he is, but when I see him talk about all the controversies he has been involved in he generally tries to explain them somehow in the context of the time, not merely deny he ever said anything. Of course you can correct me if I am wrong. In any case, there is no evidence he has some indiscriminate anti-Greek grudge. If he was involved in “anti-Greek” actions it was under the umbrella of the indiscriminate anticommunism of the time. ---
**Author:** ![Kyla](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/k/eada6e/32.png) [@Kyla](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Kyla)\ **Post date:** [March 9, 2011, 6:35pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/ok-i-give-up-what-is-with-the-tension-between-fyr-macedonia-and-greece-proper/573500/79 "2011-03-09T18:35:45Z")
> [@Pleonast](#): > > Fun fact of the day: that word is cognate to our word “robot”. Mmmm…I think the cognate comes from the Czech word for “work”, which is no doubt related. I don’t speak Czech, but in Bulgarian it’s “rabotya”. ---
**Author:** ![Really\_Not\_All\_That\_Bright](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/e8c25b/32.png) [@Really\_Not\_All\_That\_Bright](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Really_Not_All_That_Bright)\ **Post date:** [March 9, 2011, 6:38pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/ok-i-give-up-what-is-with-the-tension-between-fyr-macedonia-and-greece-proper/573500/80 "2011-03-09T18:38:30Z")
> [@Polerius](#): > > Don’t you think the current image Arabs/Muslims have in the US is a very bad one? And don’t you think that that is due to the fact that Americans are terrified of them? Well, not exactly. I mean, it’s not like the image is totally irrational. It’s just unfortunate that Americans don’t know anything about Arabs or Muslims in general, so they all get tarred with the same brush. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/ok-i-give-up-what-is-with-the-tension-between-fyr-macedonia-and-greece-proper/573500.md?page=3) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/ok-i-give-up-what-is-with-the-tension-between-fyr-macedonia-and-greece-proper/573500.md?page=5)