# Ok, if I shouldn't \_shoot\_ the intruder, then...? **URL:** \ **Category:** Great Debates\ **Created:** [January 19, 2009, 11:15pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/ok-if-i-shouldnt-_shoot_-the-intruder-then/482060 "2009-01-19T23:15:40Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 10
**Author:** ![mswas](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/e99b99/32.png) [@mswas](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/mswas)\ **Post date:** [January 20, 2009, 10:16pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/ok-if-i-shouldnt-_shoot_-the-intruder-then/482060/181 "2009-01-20T22:16:50Z")
> [@billfish678](#): > > Of course if the suspect had been a tell reading retard or had misread the tells, then mrwas would now be dead and not here to pontificate on the glory of tells. ?? Are you trying to say the guy you shot at was me or something? ---
**Author:** ![billfish678](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/7bcc69/32.png) [@billfish678](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/billfish678)\ **Post date:** [January 20, 2009, 10:16pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/ok-if-i-shouldnt-_shoot_-the-intruder-then/482060/182 "2009-01-20T22:16:58Z")
> [@mswas](#): > > So you read his tells and discerned that you didn’t need to kill him? I didn’t give a frack about his tells. I did not trust my life to his tells. I did not even try to read his tells. He was an asshole, on his latest rage. If you want to call that a tell, go ahead and prove your great insight :rolleyes: I had no need for tells. Unless there were ninja’s involved my personal risk was pretty damn low. I weighed the odds and decided that shooting in someone’s general direction was worth both the chance of me getting into trouble even IF no one was hurt OR the chance that he would be hurt or killed and I would be in even more trouble. Of course I personally didn’t really give a rats ass one way or another as to whether he lived or died. I WAS aiming in his direction. Probably had about a one in hundred chance of hitting him and about a one in thousand chance of killing him. Did put two nice holes in his truck while he was sitting in it. ---
**Author:** ![mswas](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/e99b99/32.png) [@mswas](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/mswas)\ **Post date:** [January 20, 2009, 10:18pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/ok-if-i-shouldnt-_shoot_-the-intruder-then/482060/183 "2009-01-20T22:18:46Z")
> [@billfish678](#): > > I didn’t give a frack about his tells. I did not trust my life to his tells. I did not even try to read his tells. > > He was an asshole, on his latest rage. If you want to call that a tell, go ahead and prove your great insight :rolleyes: > > I had no need for tells. Unless there were ninja’s involved my personal risk was pretty damn low. :rolleyes: So you read the tells. > [@](#): > > I weighed the odds and decided that shooting in someone’s general direction was worth both the chance of me getting into trouble even IF no one was hurt OR the chance that he would be hurt or killed and I would be in even more trouble. Of course I personally didn’t really give a rats ass one way or another as to whether he lived or died. So you read the tells and made a decision. ---
**Author:** ![Scumpup](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/ce73a5/32.png) [@Scumpup](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Scumpup)\ **Post date:** [January 20, 2009, 10:20pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/ok-if-i-shouldnt-_shoot_-the-intruder-then/482060/184 "2009-01-20T22:20:53Z")
> [@mswas](#): > > ?? > > Are you trying to say the guy you shot at was me or something? Apparently you misread his…tells. He’s talking about the boxcutter-wielding goblin you jedied upthread. ---
**Author:** ![Jolly\_Roger](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/j/91b2a8/32.png) [@Jolly\_Roger](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Jolly_Roger)\ **Post date:** [January 20, 2009, 10:23pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/ok-if-i-shouldnt-_shoot_-the-intruder-then/482060/185 "2009-01-20T22:23:05Z")
> [@Scumpup](#): > > Apparently you misread his…tells. He’s talking about the boxcutter-wielding goblin you jedied upthread. “This is not the home you wanted to rob. You can go now.” BURGLAR: “This is not the home i wanted to rob. I will go now.” The Force is Strong in this one!😃 ---
**Author:** ![mswas](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/e99b99/32.png) [@mswas](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/mswas)\ **Post date:** [January 20, 2009, 10:24pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/ok-if-i-shouldnt-_shoot_-the-intruder-then/482060/186 "2009-01-20T22:24:08Z")
> [@Scumpup](#): > > Apparently you misread his…tells. He’s talking about the boxcutter-wielding goblin you jedied upthread. Well in that case I was ready for the box cutter and had my eye on it, so I could have defended myself, or at least made the attempt. ---
**Author:** ![Cuckoorex](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/ad7895/32.png) [@Cuckoorex](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Cuckoorex)\ **Post date:** [January 20, 2009, 10:30pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/ok-if-i-shouldnt-_shoot_-the-intruder-then/482060/187 "2009-01-20T22:30:51Z")
> [@mswas](#): > > Well in that case I was ready for the box cutter and had my eye on it, so I could have defended myself, or at least made the attempt. Yeah, I suppose something like, oh, maybe **brandishing a weapon** is a pretty obvious…tell. ---
**Author:** ![Broomstick](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/broomstick/32/246_2.png) [@Broomstick](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Broomstick)\ **Post date:** [January 20, 2009, 10:33pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/ok-if-i-shouldnt-_shoot_-the-intruder-then/482060/188 "2009-01-20T22:33:40Z")
> [@Scumpup](#): > > Yes, that’s true. Their presence on the front or back is not, alone, going to determine whether a shooting was justifiable. Ayoob, mentioned upthread, has addressed this in his books and articles. Hence my statement: if the shooting was justified, it won’t matter where the wounds are. If the shooting was unjustified, it won’t matter where the wounds are. Your own story about the crossbow makes a further point: if self-defense with lethal force is justified, it doesn’t matter what your weapon was. I understand what you are saying, but the subset of situations where wounds to the back are part of justifiable use of force are a very very very very very small subset of backwounds. So small that if the perp has wounds in the back rather than the front the odds are you’ll have a LOT more 'splaining to do and will probably affect any charges brought against you. ---
**Author:** ![billfish678](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/7bcc69/32.png) [@billfish678](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/billfish678)\ **Post date:** [January 20, 2009, 10:35pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/ok-if-i-shouldnt-_shoot_-the-intruder-then/482060/189 "2009-01-20T22:35:46Z")
> [@mswas](#): > > :rolleyes: So you read the tells. > > So you read the tells and made a decision. So, now blatanlty obvious things are “tells”? Gee, the wisdom and insight are so profound I think I just had a para dig em shift. So, when you are playing poker, and the other guy goes “oh shit, I am going to loose!”, THATS a “tell”? No wonder you are so good at reading tells! Suns up! thats a tell! must be daytime! What are YOU on? Because I sure want some! I’ve been reading the SDMB for a decade, and while I dont keep a list, this “tell” thing in regards to determining whether to shoot an intruder or not has got to be about the most retarded thing I’ve ever heard. It ranks right up there with I always do the right thing because I know the right thing to do. ---
**Author:** ![mswas](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/e99b99/32.png) [@mswas](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/mswas)\ **Post date:** [January 20, 2009, 10:40pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/ok-if-i-shouldnt-_shoot_-the-intruder-then/482060/190 "2009-01-20T22:40:10Z")
> [@Cuckoorex](#): > > Yeah, I suppose something like, oh, maybe **brandishing a weapon** is a pretty obvious…tell. Why yes, yes it is. ---
**Author:** ![Todderbob](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/e47774/32.png) [@Todderbob](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Todderbob)\ **Post date:** [January 20, 2009, 10:43pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/ok-if-i-shouldnt-_shoot_-the-intruder-then/482060/191 "2009-01-20T22:43:24Z")
> [@steronz](#): > > ETA: **Broomstick** : Exactly. Plus a shotgun would be less damaging outside of the home, so you don’t have to worry as much about accidentally killing the neighbor’s kid when the bullet goes through the bad guy and out a window. Plus, camping somewhere with a shotgun aimed around a corner = much better odds of hitting something. But of course, the bad guy might not come around the corner and then these folks don’t get to play vigilante justice. Completely incorrect. Shotguns are much more likely than pistols, generally, to over penetrate. If you’re going to cherrypick ammunition, both Pistols and Shotguns (in any caliber) can be chambered with rounds that are specifically designed not to over penetrate, however the average pistol round is less likely to overpenetrate than the average shotgun round. ---
**Author:** ![mswas](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/e99b99/32.png) [@mswas](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/mswas)\ **Post date:** [January 20, 2009, 10:44pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/ok-if-i-shouldnt-_shoot_-the-intruder-then/482060/192 "2009-01-20T22:44:53Z")
> [@billfish678](#): > > So, now blatanlty obvious things are “tells”? Gee, the wisdom and insight are so profound I think I just had a para dig em shift. I never said it was some kind of magical thinking. You’re the one who is acting like it’s some kind of super power. > [@](#): > > So, when you are playing poker, and the other guy goes “oh shit, I am going to loose!”, THATS a “tell”? Different people have different levels of composure. That’s why the pros almost all wear glasses and fidget tactically, because no one can completely obscure their tells. > [@](#): > > No wonder you are so good at reading tells! I never said anything about my relative ability to read tells. Talking about the rather mundane issue of body language does not make me a ninja. > [@](#): > > Suns up! thats a tell! must be daytime! Yup, it is. > [@](#): > > What are YOU on? Because I sure want some! It’s called mundane reality, where by careful observation you can perceive facts about your environment and situation. > [@](#): > > I’ve been reading the SDMB for a decade, and while I dont keep a list, this “tell” thing in regards to determining whether to shoot an intruder or not has got to be about the most retarded thing I’ve ever heard. And the fact that you think it’s retarded has got to be one of the most retarded things I’ve ever heard. **MsWas** You can by observation of your opponent derive information about what he is going to do. **billfish** That’s retarded! > [@](#): > > It ranks right up there with I always do the right thing because I know the right thing to do. Umm…ok. ---
**Author:** ![billfish678](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/7bcc69/32.png) [@billfish678](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/billfish678)\ **Post date:** [January 20, 2009, 10:45pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/ok-if-i-shouldnt-_shoot_-the-intruder-then/482060/193 "2009-01-20T22:45:33Z")
> [@Scumpup](#): > > Apparently you misread his…tells. He’s talking about the boxcutter-wielding goblin you jedied upthread. damn thats funny 🙂 ---
**Author:** ![mswas](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/e99b99/32.png) [@mswas](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/mswas)\ **Post date:** [January 20, 2009, 10:45pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/ok-if-i-shouldnt-_shoot_-the-intruder-then/482060/194 "2009-01-20T22:45:58Z")
> [@Todderbob](#): > > Completely incorrect. > > Shotguns are much more likely than pistols, generally, to over penetrate. > > If you’re going to cherrypick ammunition, both Pistols and Shotguns (in any caliber) can be chambered with rounds that are specifically designed not to over penetrate, however the average pistol round is less likely to overpenetrate than the average shotgun round. That runs counter to everything I’ve ever heard. You got a cite? Generally buckshot is short range, at least that is the accepted wisdom. ---
**Author:** ![Todderbob](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/e47774/32.png) [@Todderbob](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Todderbob)\ **Post date:** [January 20, 2009, 10:53pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/ok-if-i-shouldnt-_shoot_-the-intruder-then/482060/195 "2009-01-20T22:53:09Z")
> [@mswas](#): > > That runs counter to everything I’ve ever heard. You got a cite? Generally buckshot is short range, at least that is the accepted wisdom. Then everything you’ve heard is incorrect, and it’s not in the least contrary to generally accepted wisdom - I am an avid shooter and am quite familiar with this topic. Buck shot is generally fired out of the barrel at around 1600 Fps and 9mm at 1,200 ft/s (both are _average_, there are some with higher and some with lower). Buckshot is smaller. ( 8.5mm to 9mm ) Those factors means it has more penetration (higher speed with less surface area). There are 9mm+P rounds which are slightly faster, but there are also shotgun rounds which are designed to be significantly faster / longer range. Edit: Of course there are other factors to take into account, like Lead deformation, but that’s of relatively minor concern. Edit2: If you wanted to use a shotgun, you’d want to use low velocity bird shot with no choke. ---
**Author:** ![mswas](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/e99b99/32.png) [@mswas](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/mswas)\ **Post date:** [January 20, 2009, 10:54pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/ok-if-i-shouldnt-_shoot_-the-intruder-then/482060/196 "2009-01-20T22:54:20Z")
**Todderbob** Ahh interesting. ---
**Author:** ![Huerta88](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/h/82dd89/32.png) [@Huerta88](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Huerta88)\ **Post date:** [January 20, 2009, 10:55pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/ok-if-i-shouldnt-_shoot_-the-intruder-then/482060/197 "2009-01-20T22:55:45Z")
> [@Todderbob](#): > > Then everything you’ve heard is wrong. > > Buck shot is generally fired out of the barrel at around 1600 Fps and 9mm at 1,200 ft/s (both are _average_, there are some with higher and some with lower). > > Buckshot is smaller. ( 8.5mm to 9mm ) > > Those factors means it has more penetration (higher speed with less surface area). > > There are 9mm+P rounds which are slightly faster, but there are also shotgun rounds which are designed to be significantly faster / longer range. Buckshot is also solid metal. The 9mm ammunition I would use if I had to deter an unwanted late night caller has a hollow point meant to expend much of the energy of the bullet upon initial contact (mainly by dispersing it in his innards, but so be it). ---
**Author:** ![billfish678](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/7bcc69/32.png) [@billfish678](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/billfish678)\ **Post date:** [January 20, 2009, 11:07pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/ok-if-i-shouldnt-_shoot_-the-intruder-then/482060/198 "2009-01-20T23:07:58Z")
> [@mswas](#): > > **MsWas** You can by observation of your opponent derive information about what he is going to do. > **billfish** That’s retarded! > . Officer : what happened? Bill gotta gun Fish : I shot his ass and killed him. Officer : Ooohhh, thats not good, you could be in big trouble now! Bill gotta gun Fish : Damn, is there anyway I can get out of it? Officer : Did he show any “tells”? Bill gotta gun Fish : WTF is a "tell’? Officer : Its an ancient secret ninja technique! Bill gotta gun Fish : Really, sounds interesting, tell (heh) me more! Officer : Its the ancient art of observation, where you look for subtle signals that someone displays that indicate what they will ACTUALLY do, even if they are trying to hide their true intentions. Bill gotta gun Fish : Interesting, tell me more. Officer : Sure, these signs are usually something like he bites his lower lip, or his eye twitches, or his voice lowers. Bill gotta gun Fish : Well, thats nice and all, but how in the heck do I know whether that means he woulda shot me or NOT shot me first if he had a chance? Officer : That really not our problem sir. Your supposed to be able to read these tells. Someone’s LIFE is at stake in these situations! One must act responsibly! It takes years of martial arts training and an inherent manly manness. You must train hard young grasshopper! Bill gotta gun Fish : That certainly doesnt seem fair! Officer : Too bad for you! Please get in the cruiser now sir. Bill gotta gun Fish : Wait, he did exhibit a sign! A “tell” even, as to his true intentions and the fact that my life was in mortal danger! Officer : What was it? The eye twitch? Thats usually the big give away. Bill gotta gun Fish : He broke into my house in the middle of the night, knowing I was likely home and was stealing my shit ! Officer : Oh, okay. You are free to go. I’'ll send you some paperwork to sign later in the week. Need help with that body? Bill gotta gun Fish : I gots me some hogs outback. Thanks and have a good day officer. “tells”… good grief ---
**Author:** ![Scumpup](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/ce73a5/32.png) [@Scumpup](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Scumpup)\ **Post date:** [January 20, 2009, 11:15pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/ok-if-i-shouldnt-_shoot_-the-intruder-then/482060/199 "2009-01-20T23:15:36Z")
> [@Broomstick](#): > > I understand what you are saying, but the subset of situations where wounds to the back are part of justifiable use of force are a very very very very very small subset of backwounds. So small that if the perp has wounds in the back rather than the front the odds are you’ll have a LOT more 'splaining to do and will probably affect any charges brought against you. More or less agreed; though I wouldn’t use “very” quite so many times. ---
**Author:** ![steronz](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/steronz/32/11765_2.png) [@steronz](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/steronz)\ **Post date:** [January 20, 2009, 11:21pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/ok-if-i-shouldnt-_shoot_-the-intruder-then/482060/200 "2009-01-20T23:21:00Z")
> [@Huerta88](#): > > Buckshot is also solid metal. The 9mm ammunition I would use if I had to deter an unwanted late night caller has a hollow point meant to expend much of the energy of the bullet upon initial contact (mainly by dispersing it in his innards, but so be it). Unless you miss and it goes out the window. Do people really use buckshot for home defense? I never checked with anyone I know who keeps a shotgun in the house, but I always assumed they used birdshot with a decent spread and a short range of lethality. Many thanks to **Todderbob** for dropping the knowledge. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/ok-if-i-shouldnt-_shoot_-the-intruder-then/482060.md?page=9) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/ok-if-i-shouldnt-_shoot_-the-intruder-then/482060.md?page=11)