# Ok, if I shouldn't \_shoot\_ the intruder, then...? **URL:** \ **Category:** Great Debates\ **Created:** [January 19, 2009, 11:15pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/ok-if-i-shouldnt-_shoot_-the-intruder-then/482060 "2009-01-19T23:15:40Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 11
**Author:** ![Jolly\_Roger](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/j/91b2a8/32.png) [@Jolly\_Roger](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Jolly_Roger)\ **Post date:** [January 20, 2009, 11:31pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/ok-if-i-shouldnt-_shoot_-the-intruder-then/482060/201 "2009-01-20T23:31:59Z")
> [@billfish678](#): > > Officer : what happened? > > Bill gotta gun Fish : I shot his ass and killed him. > > Officer : Ooohhh, thats not good, you could be in big trouble now! > > Bill gotta gun Fish : Damn, is there anyway I can get out of it? > > Officer : Did he show any “tells”? > > Bill gotta gun Fish : WTF is a "tell’? > > Officer : Its an ancient secret ninja technique! > > Bill gotta gun Fish : Really, sounds interesting, tell (heh) me more! > > Officer : Its the ancient art of observation, where you look for subtle signals that someone displays that indicate what they will ACTUALLY do, even if they are trying to hide their true intentions. > > Bill gotta gun Fish : Interesting, tell me more. > > Officer : Sure, these signs are usually something like he bites his lower lip, or his eye twitches, or his voice lowers. > > Bill gotta gun Fish : Well, thats nice and all, but how in the heck do I know whether that means he woulda shot me or NOT shot me first if he had a chance? > > Officer : That really not our problem sir. Your supposed to be able to read these tells. Someone’s LIFE is at stake in these situations! One must act responsibly! It takes years of martial arts training and an inherent manly manness. You must train hard young grasshopper! > > Bill gotta gun Fish : That certainly doesnt seem fair! > > Officer : Too bad for you! Please get in the cruiser now sir. > > Bill gotta gun Fish : Wait, he did exhibit a sign! A “tell” even, as to his true intentions and the fact that my life was in mortal danger! > > Officer : What was it? The eye twitch? Thats usually the big give away. > > Bill gotta gun Fish : He broke into my house in the middle of the night, knowing I was likely home and was stealing my shit ! > > Officer : Oh, okay. You are free to go. I’'ll send you some paperwork to sign later in the week. Need help with that body? > > Bill gotta gun Fish : I gots me some hogs outback. Thanks and have a good day officer. > > “tells”… good grief Now that was funny. 😃 ---
**Author:** ![Todderbob](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/e47774/32.png) [@Todderbob](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Todderbob)\ **Post date:** [January 20, 2009, 11:36pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/ok-if-i-shouldnt-_shoot_-the-intruder-then/482060/202 "2009-01-20T23:36:20Z")
> [@steronz](#): > > Unless you miss and it goes out the window. > > Do people really use buckshot for home defense? I never checked with anyone I know who keeps a shotgun in the house, but I always assumed they used birdshot with a decent spread and a short range of lethality. > > Many thanks to **Todderbob** for dropping the knowledge. You’re still better off with a pistol. The first few pellets will pierce the drywall and be shoved out of the way. ETA: With a pistol, and rounds designed for home defense, you’re unlikely to have the same issue. Hollow points will fracture and possibly even shatter. And, never a problem. I’m always happy to share my knowledge on firearms. ---
**Author:** ![spike404](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/aeb1de/32.png) [@spike404](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/spike404)\ **Post date:** [January 21, 2009, 1:29am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/ok-if-i-shouldnt-_shoot_-the-intruder-then/482060/203 "2009-01-21T01:29:41Z")
“…I always assumed they used birdshot with a decent spread and a short range of lethality…” Just for information—the size of shot used does not affect the spread of shot. #9’s do not spread wider than BB’s (another shot size), nor the various buckshot sizes. It is just another misconception from the movies. Also, a short barrel does not affect shot spread–unless about 4 inches barrel length, a ridiculous length. Birdshot is not as lethal as buckshot----true, because of the size of the projectile. I have shot more than 20,000 rounds of shot-shells in ~20 years of skeet competition, at a bare minimum. A competition event usually involves at least 100 rounds per gauge, plus practice. Believe what I post in-re to shotguns. ---
**Author:** ![carnivorousplant](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/carnivorousplant/32/3563_2.png) [@carnivorousplant](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/carnivorousplant)\ **Post date:** [January 21, 2009, 1:35am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/ok-if-i-shouldnt-_shoot_-the-intruder-then/482060/204 "2009-01-21T01:35:42Z")
> [@spike404](#): > > ." > > Just for information—the size of shot used does not affect the spread of shot. What does? When I was a kid, I fired the 16 ga Ivers Johson my Aunt gave me at a piece of plywood with birdshot at maybe twenty feet. There was a cup sized hole in the board, surrounded by holes becoming less and less dense, out to a few a foot from the center. ---
**Author:** ![Todderbob](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/e47774/32.png) [@Todderbob](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Todderbob)\ **Post date:** [January 21, 2009, 1:39am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/ok-if-i-shouldnt-_shoot_-the-intruder-then/482060/205 "2009-01-21T01:39:34Z")
> [@carnivorousplant](#): > > What does? When I was a kid, I fired the 16 ga Ivers Johson my Aunt gave me at a piece of plywood with birdshot at maybe twenty feet. There was a cup sized hole in the board, surrounded by holes becoming less and less dense, out to a few a foot from the center. [Choke](http://www.wildfowlmag.com/tips_strategies/shotgun_062304/). ETA: > [@spike404](#): > > Just for information—the size of shot used does not affect the spread of shot. #9’s do not spread wider than BB’s (another shot size), nor the various buckshot sizes. It is just another misconception from the movies. **Also, a short barrel does not affect shot spread–unless about 4 inches barrel length, a ridiculous length**. Birdshot is not as lethal as buckshot----true, because of the size of the projectile. I have to disagree on this particular point. I’ve shot everything from 18" to 26" shotguns, and there is a definite difference in the spread for shorter guns. It’s not “omg three feet!” difference, but there is a difference. ---
**Author:** ![steronz](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/steronz/32/11765_2.png) [@steronz](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/steronz)\ **Post date:** [January 21, 2009, 1:47am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/ok-if-i-shouldnt-_shoot_-the-intruder-then/482060/206 "2009-01-21T01:47:31Z")
> [@spike404](#): > > “..I always assumed they used birdshot with a decent spread and a short range of lethality…” > > Just for information—the size of shot used does not affect the spread of shot. #9’s do not spread wider than BB’s (another shot size), nor the various buckshot sizes. It is just another misconception from the movies. Also, a short barrel does not affect shot spread–unless about 4 inches barrel length, a ridiculous length. Birdshot is not as lethal as buckshot----true, because of the size of the projectile. > > I have shot more than 20,000 rounds of shot-shells in ~20 years of skeet competition, at a bare minimum. A competition event usually involves at least 100 rounds per gauge, plus practice. Believe what I post in-re to shotguns. I’ll believe you, I didn’t mean to imply that the shot and the spread were related. If I were getting a shotgun for home defense, I would load it with birdshot and not put a choke on it. That’s all. I can’t aim worth shit, and I don’t want buckshot flying through walls and hitting kids across the street. Birdshot should be lethal enough at 20 feet to make it effective for home defense, would it not? ---
**Author:** ![mswas](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/e99b99/32.png) [@mswas](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/mswas)\ **Post date:** [January 21, 2009, 1:47am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/ok-if-i-shouldnt-_shoot_-the-intruder-then/482060/207 "2009-01-21T01:47:33Z")
Heh, I never would have thought that reading body language would be considered a magical technique. Usually it’s used to DEBUNK the idea of magical techniques. ---
**Author:** ![Todderbob](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/e47774/32.png) [@Todderbob](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Todderbob)\ **Post date:** [January 21, 2009, 1:51am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/ok-if-i-shouldnt-_shoot_-the-intruder-then/482060/208 "2009-01-21T01:51:16Z")
> [@steronz](#): > > I’ll believe you, I didn’t mean to imply that the shot and the spread were related. If I were getting a shotgun for home defense, I would load it with birdshot and not put a choke on it. That’s all. I can’t aim worth shit, and I don’t want buckshot flying through walls and hitting kids across the street. Birdshot should be lethal enough at 20 feet to make it effective for home defense, would it not? Yes, it would. ---
**Author:** ![mswas](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/e99b99/32.png) [@mswas](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/mswas)\ **Post date:** [January 21, 2009, 1:51am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/ok-if-i-shouldnt-_shoot_-the-intruder-then/482060/209 "2009-01-21T01:51:28Z")
Officer: So you couldn’t tell anything by the way he was acting? Bill Gotta Gun Fish: Well he was running away across my lawn screaming like a girl, but I wasn’t sure if he was gonna rape my wife or kill me or something. I just had no way to know! I mean HE CAME INTO MY HOUSE!!! ---
**Author:** ![spike404](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/aeb1de/32.png) [@spike404](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/spike404)\ **Post date:** [January 21, 2009, 2:00am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/ok-if-i-shouldnt-_shoot_-the-intruder-then/482060/210 "2009-01-21T02:00:00Z")
“… Birdshot should be lethal enough at 20 feet to make it effective for home defense, would it not?..” Possibly. But go to a bigger shot. Number of pellets per ounce: BB - 50, 2 - 87, 4 - 135, 5 - 170, 6 - 225, 7 1/2 - 350, 8 - 410, 8 1/2 - 497, 9 - 585. BB’s, at the very least. ---
**Author:** ![Jolly\_Roger](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/j/91b2a8/32.png) [@Jolly\_Roger](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Jolly_Roger)\ **Post date:** [January 21, 2009, 2:00am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/ok-if-i-shouldnt-_shoot_-the-intruder-then/482060/211 "2009-01-21T02:00:07Z")
I don’t think Bill said anything about shooting a burglar in the back when he was running away in the lawn and obviously not a threat. I’m not rereading the thread to be sure, so you’ll have to point me to the part where he said that. ---
**Author:** ![Scumpup](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/ce73a5/32.png) [@Scumpup](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Scumpup)\ **Post date:** [January 21, 2009, 2:01am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/ok-if-i-shouldnt-_shoot_-the-intruder-then/482060/212 "2009-01-21T02:01:27Z")
> [@mswas](#): > > Officer: So you couldn’t tell anything by the way he was acting? > > Bill Gotta Gun Fish: Well he was running away across my lawn screaming like a girl, but I wasn’t sure if he was gonna rape my wife or kill me or something. I just had no way to know! I mean HE CAME INTO MY HOUSE!!! See, when **billfish678** did it, it was funny because of the element of truth. When you do it, it’s lame and comes off like a little kid saying “I know you are, but what am I?” ---
**Author:** ![billfish678](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/7bcc69/32.png) [@billfish678](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/billfish678)\ **Post date:** [January 21, 2009, 2:04am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/ok-if-i-shouldnt-_shoot_-the-intruder-then/482060/213 "2009-01-21T02:04:19Z")
> [@Scumpup](#): > > See, when **billfish678** did it, it was funny because of the element of truth. When you do it, it’s lame and comes off like a little kid saying “I know you are, but what am I?” He’s a mind reading ninja! 🙂 ---
**Author:** ![mswas](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/e99b99/32.png) [@mswas](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/mswas)\ **Post date:** [January 21, 2009, 2:05am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/ok-if-i-shouldnt-_shoot_-the-intruder-then/482060/214 "2009-01-21T02:05:12Z")
> [@Jolly\_Roger](#): > > I don’t think Bill said anything about shooting a burglar in the back when he was running away in the lawn and obviously not a threat. I’m not rereading the thread to be sure, so you’ll have to point me to the part where he said that. Well then what’s his point then? Those are tells, reasons not to shoot a man. Maybe I just shouldn’t expect that people I am discussing things with are actually reading my posts, since my particular example of someone’s ‘tells’ was someone running out the door with their back to you. **Scumpup** Anyone who thinks reading body language is a mystical art is a fucking moron. If what he says is funnier to other morons so be it. ---
**Author:** ![spike404](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/aeb1de/32.png) [@spike404](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/spike404)\ **Post date:** [January 21, 2009, 2:06am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/ok-if-i-shouldnt-_shoot_-the-intruder-then/482060/215 "2009-01-21T02:06:40Z")
> [@Todderbob](#): > > [Choke](http://www.wildfowlmag.com/tips_strategies/shotgun_062304/). > > ETA: > > I have to disagree on this particular point. > > I’ve shot everything from 18" to 26" shotguns, and there is a definite difference in the spread for shorter guns. It’s not “omg three feet!” difference, but there is a difference. And I disagree with you. I have shot many patterns, and there is no measurable difference in patterns. The idea of a 3’-5’ blast at 10’ is pure Hollywood. As is being knocked down by the recoil of a 12 gauge. I shoot 26" to 30" barrels–better swing on a longer barrel. ---
**Author:** ![Todderbob](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/e47774/32.png) [@Todderbob](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Todderbob)\ **Post date:** [January 21, 2009, 2:06am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/ok-if-i-shouldnt-_shoot_-the-intruder-then/482060/216 "2009-01-21T02:06:44Z")
> [@mswas](#): > > Officer: So you couldn’t tell anything by the way he was acting? > > Bill Gotta Gun Fish: Well he was running away across my lawn screaming like a girl, but I wasn’t sure if he was gonna rape my wife or kill me or something. I just had no way to know! I mean HE CAME INTO MY HOUSE!!! False Dilemma. 1. Don’t shoot intruder. 2. Shoot intruder in the back. Option 3, which you’ve obviously completely failed to make room for. 3. Person is in the living room of the house, you are in your room (master bedroom), and children are in their rooms. The rooms of the children are on the other side of the living room. You walk into the living room **to ensure the safety of your children**. You see him turn quickly, and it’s relatively dark, you can’t see whether he’s trying to grab a weapon or just trying to run. I shoot. I don’t want to take the chance he might be grabbing a knife/gun/bat/crowbar/etc and might be orphaning my (extremely theoretical) children. ---
**Author:** ![spike404](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/aeb1de/32.png) [@spike404](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/spike404)\ **Post date:** [January 21, 2009, 2:12am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/ok-if-i-shouldnt-_shoot_-the-intruder-then/482060/217 "2009-01-21T02:12:40Z")
> [@carnivorousplant](#): > > What does? When I was a kid, I fired the 16 ga Ivers Johson my Aunt gave me at a piece of plywood with birdshot at maybe twenty feet. There was a cup sized hole in the board, surrounded by holes becoming less and less dense, out to a few a foot from the center. In shotgun lingo, those are called “flyers”. Usually attributed to the shot on the outside of the shot cup. They rub against the barrel when fired, and become distorted. The non-spherical shape causes them to “fly”. ---
**Author:** ![mswas](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/e99b99/32.png) [@mswas](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/mswas)\ **Post date:** [January 21, 2009, 2:13am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/ok-if-i-shouldnt-_shoot_-the-intruder-then/482060/218 "2009-01-21T02:13:41Z")
> [@Todderbob](#): > > False Dilemma. > > 1. Don’t shoot intruder. > > 2. Shoot intruder in the back. > Option 3, which you’ve obviously completely failed to make room for. > > 3. Person is in the living room of the house, you are in your room (master bedroom), and children are in their rooms. The rooms of the children are on the other side of the living room. You walk into the living room **to ensure the safety of your children**. You see him turn quickly, and it’s relatively dark, you can’t see whether he’s trying to grab a weapon or just trying to run. > > I shoot. I don’t want to take the chance he might be grabbing a knife/gun/bat/crowbar/etc and might be orphaning my (extremely theoretical) children. Maybe you forgot the scenario laid out in the original post. See, here I was arguing based on the original post, that the hypothetical burglar was heading for the door. [QUOTE=Lumpy] How does one deal with the following hypothetical scenerio? You’re a legal gun owner. In the middle of the night, you’re awoken by noise from downstairs. You go downstairs with your gun. You surprise a burglar holding your wife’s purse or an expensive piece of electronics. At the sight of you and your gun, the burglar bolts for the door. Now YMMV, but here in Minnesota I’m pretty sure that I would NOT have the legal right to gun them down in the back as they’re fleeing. Minnesota is not a “Castle Doctrine” state; in fact, trespassing is only a misdemeanor, and then only after the intruder has refused a verbal order to leave(!) A home owner is allowed to use “appropriate force” to prevent a felony. Breaking and Entering is a felony, but by some interpretations once they’ve broken in it’s done, so you’re not “preventing” it anymore(!) Ok, they’re stealing my goddamn Tivo, that’s a felony, what’s appropriate force? Let’s say I give chase. Am I allowed to pistol-whip them in the back of the head? Tackle them? If they fight back, then am I justified in shooting them? If they make it past my property line have they legally crossed the “goal line”? Broadly speaking then, when armed how does one de-escalate to a lesser degree of force? And puhleeze don’t say “it’s just a possession, it isn’t worth someone’s life”. Frankly I think it ought to be worth their life, but for now the law is what it is. [/QUOTE] What you’re doing is shifting the goalposts by introducing new scenarios as if they were part of the argument from the beginning. I already said long ago in this thread that there are situations where you are justified in shooting a Burglar. But the scenario as described in the OP IMV did not warrant shooting the burglar. Because his behavior ‘tells’ said that he was trying to escape. Again, as outlined in the OP. In the OP, he is running for the door with a TiVo in his hands. So what is it? Does he have a TiVo/Purse in one hand and is reaching for the door with the other or do we assume that he is going for a weapon? ---
**Author:** ![Todderbob](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/e47774/32.png) [@Todderbob](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Todderbob)\ **Post date:** [January 21, 2009, 2:21am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/ok-if-i-shouldnt-_shoot_-the-intruder-then/482060/219 "2009-01-21T02:21:19Z")
> [@mswas](#): > > Maybe you forgot the scenario laid out in the original post. See, here I was arguing based on the original post, that the hypothetical burglar was heading for the door. > > What you’re doing is shifting the goalposts by introducing new scenarios as if they were part of the argument from the beginning. I already said long ago in this thread that there are situations where you are justified in shooting a Burglar. But the scenario as described in the OP IMV did not warrant shooting the burglar. Because his behavior ‘tells’ said that he was trying to escape. Again, as outlined in the OP. In the OP, he is running for the door with a TiVo in his hands. So what is it? Does he have a TiVo/Purse in one hand and is reaching for the door with the other or do we assume that he is going for a weapon? Maybe you missed the part where it’s a **threaded** discussion? ---
**Author:** ![billfish678](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/7bcc69/32.png) [@billfish678](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/billfish678)\ **Post date:** [January 21, 2009, 2:23am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/ok-if-i-shouldnt-_shoot_-the-intruder-then/482060/220 "2009-01-21T02:23:07Z")
> [@mswas](#): > > Well then what’s his point then? Those are tells, reasons not to shoot a man. Maybe I just shouldn’t expect that people I am discussing things with are actually reading my posts, since my particular example of someone’s ‘tells’ was someone running out the door with their back to you. > > **Scumpup** Anyone who thinks reading body language is a mystical art is a fucking moron. If what he says is funnier to other morons so be it. If you’d quit referreing to blantanly obvious observations as “tells” people would quit laughing at you so much. “tells” refer, almost by definition, to SUBTLE behavioural clues. If you can slow time, see in the dark, ignore the addrenaline in your veins, read minds, and properly interpret THESE kind of tells and are willing to risk you and your loved ones lives on this skill HAVE AT IT. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/ok-if-i-shouldnt-_shoot_-the-intruder-then/482060.md?page=10) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/ok-if-i-shouldnt-_shoot_-the-intruder-then/482060.md?page=12)