# Ok, if I shouldn't \_shoot\_ the intruder, then...? **URL:** \ **Category:** Great Debates\ **Created:** [January 19, 2009, 11:15pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/ok-if-i-shouldnt-_shoot_-the-intruder-then/482060 "2009-01-19T23:15:40Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 12
**Author:** ![billfish678](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/7bcc69/32.png) [@billfish678](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/billfish678)\ **Post date:** [January 21, 2009, 2:24am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/ok-if-i-shouldnt-_shoot_-the-intruder-then/482060/221 "2009-01-21T02:24:56Z")
> [@Todderbob](#): > > Maybe you missed the part where it’s a **threaded** discussion? Its more like that matted lint in the dryer lint filter, but this best cheap entertainment I’ve had in months ! Yaahhhhh! ---
**Author:** ![spike404](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/aeb1de/32.png) [@spike404](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/spike404)\ **Post date:** [January 21, 2009, 2:33am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/ok-if-i-shouldnt-_shoot_-the-intruder-then/482060/222 "2009-01-21T02:33:33Z")
> [@billfish678](#): > > If you’d quit referreing to blantanly obvious observations as “tells” people would quit laughing at you so much. > > “tells” refer, almost by definition, to SUBTLE behavioural clues. If you can slow time, see in the dark, ignore the addrenaline in your veins, read minds, and properly interpret THESE kind of tells and are willing to risk you and your loved ones lives on this skill HAVE AT IT. AMEN!!! ---
**Author:** ![ivan\_astikov](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/i/58f4c7/32.png) [@ivan\_astikov](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/ivan_astikov)\ **Post date:** [January 21, 2009, 2:39am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/ok-if-i-shouldnt-_shoot_-the-intruder-then/482060/223 "2009-01-21T02:39:09Z")
As a long ex-burglar, I can say that all myself and my accomplices ever wanted to do was get your badly protected property as quickly and as effortlessly as possible. I’ve met a few burglars in jails, and the ones who actually wrecked up shit for fun and giggles, or went out intent to do physical harm for the same reasons, were very, very rare. When ever I entered a property, my first action would be to make sure I had an escape route ready in case anyone came in. Then I would start gathering anything of value into one spot. I’d carry no weapons, other than the tools of my trade(screwdriver, crowbar mostly), which were usually hidden in a safe spot before entering, but if anyone had got between my and my escape route, they would have definitely needed to forcibly restrain me to prevent me leaving. I guess I was very lucky, and that scenario only ever occurred once, when I was aged about 14. I managed to talk the guy into going outside and made a run for it, losing a shoe in the process. If you’ve ever tried running in one platform shoe\*, you haven’t lived( I’m giving my age away here.). Even funnier thing is, my mam had just bought me the shoes, so I had to tell her I’d been chased up a railway embankments by some ruffians. The next day, she had me, my dad and 2 younger brothers scouring the embankments looking for this shoe. I tried my best to feign interst for half a hour or so, until my dad got pissed off and dragged us all home. I never told them the truth until about 10 years later. - Burgling lesson number one learned. Wear the right footwear. ---
**Author:** ![Stealth\_Potato](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/d78d45/32.png) [@Stealth\_Potato](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Stealth_Potato)\ **Post date:** [January 21, 2009, 2:50am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/ok-if-i-shouldnt-_shoot_-the-intruder-then/482060/224 "2009-01-21T02:50:21Z")
> [@steronz](#): > > Birdshot should be lethal enough at 20 feet to make it effective for home defense, would it not? > [@Todderbob](#): > > Yes, it would. Are you absolutely sure about that? I’ll state up front that I don’t have much experience with shotguns (I only have one – a simple 12-gauge Remington 870 with an 18" barrel). But it’s been my impression that birdshot has pretty abysmal penetration, even at relatively close range, and given the tiny projectile size, is unlikely to have any significant stopping power even if the subject is hit by a large number of the pellets. Most people I’ve spoken with about defensive shotgun use suggested something more along the lines of 0 buck or 00 buck at minimum as a “man stopper” shotgun load. ---
**Author:** ![Jolly\_Roger](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/j/91b2a8/32.png) [@Jolly\_Roger](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Jolly_Roger)\ **Post date:** [January 21, 2009, 2:54am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/ok-if-i-shouldnt-_shoot_-the-intruder-then/482060/225 "2009-01-21T02:54:15Z")
> [@mswas](#): > > Well then what’s his point then? Those are tells, reasons not to shoot a man. Maybe I just shouldn’t expect that people I am discussing things with are actually reading my posts, since my particular example of someone’s ‘tells’ was someone running out the door with their back to you. > > **Scumpup** Anyone who thinks reading body language is a mystical art is a fucking moron. If what he says is funnier to other morons so be it. See, this is where you’re making a mistake. We all know what you mean by “tells” and I think that most of us are capable of reading subtle body language. But it doesn’t fit with the scenario. If I break into your house and you find me scampering about in your den at 0300 you have a split second to decide…in the fucking dark…am I going to attack you? am I just there for your DVD player? If I move towards you maybe I’m going to shake your hand…or maybe I plan on cutrting your head off and making stew from your brains. You don’t know, and you wouldn’t know what i’m capable of…but you’d know this…I’m in your fucking house obviously for no good and its dark. So unless your wearing Jame Gumb infra red goggles your probably not even gonna see clearly to read my “tells”. And I gotta tell you dude, as nicely as I can, this tell thing is kinda stupid to bring up in this discussion. It not only makes you seem like an adolescent braggart, but it also makes you seem slightly delusional. I’m not trying to insult you, but hey, man, calling other people morons here ain’t that cool either. I can “tell” when someone is lying to me by subtle clues. I can “tell” when a person is thinking about cornering me on a secluded street. Heck, I can tell when my platoon leader is going to tell me something she knows I’m not gonna like. But not in the dark in a split second. ---
**Author:** ![Jolly\_Roger](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/j/91b2a8/32.png) [@Jolly\_Roger](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Jolly_Roger)\ **Post date:** [January 21, 2009, 2:59am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/ok-if-i-shouldnt-_shoot_-the-intruder-then/482060/226 "2009-01-21T02:59:52Z")
> [@ivan\_astikov](#): > > As a long ex-burglar, I can say that all myself and my accomplices ever wanted to do was get your badly protected property as quickly and as effortlessly as possible. I’ve met a few burglars in jails, and the ones who actually wrecked up shit for fun and giggles, or went out intent to do physical harm for the same reasons, were very, very rare. When ever I entered a property, my first action would be to make sure I had an escape route ready in case anyone came in. Then I would start gathering anything of value into one spot. I’d carry no weapons, other than the tools of my trade(screwdriver, crowbar mostly), which were usually hidden in a safe spot before entering, but if anyone had got between my and my escape route, they would have definitely needed to forcibly restrain me to prevent me leaving. I guess I was very lucky, and that scenario only ever occurred once, when I was aged about 14. I managed to talk the guy into going outside and made a run for it, losing a shoe in the process. If you’ve ever tried running in one platform shoe\*, you haven’t lived( I’m giving my age away here.). > > Even funnier thing is, my mam had just bought me the shoes, so I had to tell her I’d been chased up a railway embankments by some ruffians. The next day, she had me, my dad and 2 younger brothers scouring the embankments looking for this shoe. I tried my best to feign interst for half a hour or so, until my dad got pissed off and dragged us all home. > > I never told them the truth until about 10 years later. > > - Burgling lesson number one learned. Wear the right footwear. the thing is, if you;re in my house i’m not willing to risk the chance that you aren’t a crazy person. you already said you’d have to be restrained to keep from leaving. What if your path were blocked by me or another family member. most likely my wife would insist on coming with me if we heard a thief…so that ups the chance that i’d be willing ot use lethal force. Its a no brainer…if you break into someones house you pretty much deserve it if they harm you. ---
**Author:** ![Todderbob](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/e47774/32.png) [@Todderbob](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Todderbob)\ **Post date:** [January 21, 2009, 3:00am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/ok-if-i-shouldnt-_shoot_-the-intruder-then/482060/227 "2009-01-21T03:00:14Z")
> [@Stealth\_Potato](#): > > Are you absolutely sure about that? I’ll state up front that I don’t have much experience with shotguns (I only have one – a simple 12-gauge Remington 870 with an 18" barrel). But it’s been my impression that birdshot has pretty abysmal penetration, even at relatively close range, and given the tiny projectile size, is unlikely to have any significant stopping power even if the subject is hit by a large number of the pellets. > > Most people I’ve spoken with about defensive shotgun use suggested something more along the lines of 0 buck or 00 buck at minimum as a “man stopper” shotgun load. Honestly, less so than I was before. After looking it up, I stand correct. Bird shot is for birds, not people. Even in a situation where you’re worried about Over-penetration, I’d go with something other than bird shot (a pistol). Personally, I have a remington 1100 (18 inch barrel) with 00 buck, and a 9mm. I honestly don’t know which I’d grab in a home defense situation, probably the pistol. While a bird shot _would likely_ cease an attack on you (no cite), it wouldn’t be enough to actually stop the intruder (according to FBI Penetration requirements). It doesn’t penetrate deep enough to damage the Cardiovascular or Central Nervous system. ---
**Author:** ![billfish678](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/7bcc69/32.png) [@billfish678](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/billfish678)\ **Post date:** [January 21, 2009, 3:06am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/ok-if-i-shouldnt-_shoot_-the-intruder-then/482060/228 "2009-01-21T03:06:45Z")
> [@Todderbob](#): > > While a bird shot _would likely_ cease an attack on you (no cite), it wouldn’t be enough to actually stop the intruder (according to FBI Penetration requirements). > > It doesn’t penetrate deep enough to damage the Cardiovascular or Central Nervous system. Well, at least if you pack your own you can throw in some rock salt for bonus points. I think I’d throw in some habenero juice as well 🙂 ---
**Author:** ![steronz](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/steronz/32/11765_2.png) [@steronz](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/steronz)\ **Post date:** [January 21, 2009, 3:09am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/ok-if-i-shouldnt-_shoot_-the-intruder-then/482060/229 "2009-01-21T03:09:58Z")
OK, something bigger than birdshot then. But I suck with a pistol, despite having qualified on the M9 once upon a time. I’m not going to stake my life or my family’s lives on being able to hit shit in the dark with a handgun. And I sure as shit ain’t walking into a defensive position. Shotgun and hunker down behind a steel door if you’re serious about safety, I stand by that. ---
**Author:** ![Todderbob](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/e47774/32.png) [@Todderbob](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Todderbob)\ **Post date:** [January 21, 2009, 3:11am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/ok-if-i-shouldnt-_shoot_-the-intruder-then/482060/230 "2009-01-21T03:11:16Z")
> [@billfish678](#): > > Well, at least if you pack your own you can throw in some rock salt for bonus points. I think I’d throw in some habenero juice as well 🙂 [http://www.theboxotruth.com/docs/bot33.htm](http://www.theboxotruth.com/docs/bot33.htm) That stuff **hurts**. I’ve never been on the wrong side of it myself, but I have a few friends who have been. FYI: Anyone who doesn’t live in the boonies or know anything about it… It’s a less-than-lethal load, and it’s used as a pest and thief deterrent (for crop-shitters or cow tippers). It usually bounces off the skin, but a few pieces, inevitably, bury themselves just under the skin. Not far enough to permanently injure. But far enough that even after the salt is gotten out of the skin, flakes remain for a few hours/days before they dissolve. ---
**Author:** ![Todderbob](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/e47774/32.png) [@Todderbob](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Todderbob)\ **Post date:** [January 21, 2009, 3:15am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/ok-if-i-shouldnt-_shoot_-the-intruder-then/482060/231 "2009-01-21T03:15:40Z")
> [@steronz](#): > > OK, something bigger than birdshot then. But I suck with a pistol, despite having qualified on the M9 once upon a time. I’m not going to stake my life or my family’s lives on being able to hit shit in the dark with a handgun. And I sure as shit ain’t walking into a defensive position. Shotgun and hunker down behind a steel door if you’re serious about safety, I stand by that. You should practice with any weapon you want to use as a home defense weapon. Whatever your ‘standard’ accuracy is with a weapon, count on being half as accurate – or less – when you’re in a high stress situation. ---
**Author:** ![Stealth\_Potato](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/d78d45/32.png) [@Stealth\_Potato](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Stealth_Potato)\ **Post date:** [January 21, 2009, 3:16am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/ok-if-i-shouldnt-_shoot_-the-intruder-then/482060/232 "2009-01-21T03:16:13Z")
Yeah, I’d also bet that a torso full of bird shot would almost certainly stop _most_ people from being interested in any further activities, even if the wounds would be (from a gunshot standpoint anyway) superficial. It’s the occasional more determined assailant (possibly with chemical assistance) who will find the stinging pellets more of a nuisance than anything else. Of course, I seem to recall a story about a guy who took a 12-gauge rifled slug _through the lung_ during a shootout with police, and continued returning fire for some time afterwards. So I guess nothing is guaranteed. :eek: **Todderbob** : I was just looking at that same Box O’ Truth article! From his results, though, it looks like even a leather jacket would probably stop all of it except at extremely close ranges, and much farther out they’d probably have to be naked… 😛 ---
**Author:** ![ivan\_astikov](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/i/58f4c7/32.png) [@ivan\_astikov](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/ivan_astikov)\ **Post date:** [January 21, 2009, 3:25am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/ok-if-i-shouldnt-_shoot_-the-intruder-then/482060/233 "2009-01-21T03:25:53Z")
> [@Jolly\_Roger](#): > > the thing is, if you;re in my house i’m not willing to risk the chance that you aren’t a crazy person. you already said you’d have to be restrained to keep from leaving. What if your path were blocked by me or another family member. most likely my wife would insist on coming with me if we heard a thief…so that ups the chance that i’d be willing ot use lethal force. > > Its a no brainer…if you break into someones house you pretty much deserve it if they harm you. The main point I was trying to make is that a little home security will usually put off all but the most determined thieves, and you’d never have to consider cleaning up blood out of your new sheepskin rug, or possibly having your own spilled. I live in a country where guns are far less easy to get hold of, but if things were different and I was still a burglar, why wouldn’t I take a gun, just in case you’ve got one? The chances of you surprising me are far less than the other way round, as I am operating on heightened senses, and you have probably just woke up! ---
**Author:** ![Cuckoorex](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/ad7895/32.png) [@Cuckoorex](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Cuckoorex)\ **Post date:** [January 21, 2009, 3:28am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/ok-if-i-shouldnt-_shoot_-the-intruder-then/482060/234 "2009-01-21T03:28:27Z")
> [@ivan\_astikov](#): > > As a long ex-burglar, I can say that all myself and my accomplices ever wanted to do was get your badly protected property as quickly and as effortlessly as possible. I’ve met a few burglars in jails, and the ones who actually wrecked up shit for fun and giggles, or went out intent to do physical harm for the same reasons, were very, very rare. When ever I entered a property, my first action would be to make sure I had an escape route ready in case anyone came in. Then I would start gathering anything of value into one spot. I’d carry no weapons, other than the tools of my trade(screwdriver, crowbar mostly), which were usually hidden in a safe spot before entering, but if anyone had got between my and my escape route, they would have definitely needed to forcibly restrain me to prevent me leaving. I guess I was very lucky, and that scenario only ever occurred once, when I was aged about 14. I managed to talk the guy into going outside and made a run for it, losing a shoe in the process. If you’ve ever tried running in one platform shoe\*, you haven’t lived( I’m giving my age away here.). > > Even funnier thing is, my mam had just bought me the shoes, so I had to tell her I’d been chased up a railway embankments by some ruffians. The next day, she had me, my dad and 2 younger brothers scouring the embankments looking for this shoe. I tried my best to feign interst for half a hour or so, until my dad got pissed off and dragged us all home. > > I never told them the truth until about 10 years later. > > - Burgling lesson number one learned. Wear the right footwear. What were your…tells? ---
**Author:** ![billfish678](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/7bcc69/32.png) [@billfish678](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/billfish678)\ **Post date:** [January 21, 2009, 3:33am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/ok-if-i-shouldnt-_shoot_-the-intruder-then/482060/235 "2009-01-21T03:33:12Z")
> [@ivan\_astikov](#): > > , as I am operating on heightened senses See, I told you there would be NINJAS! ---
**Author:** ![billfish678](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/7bcc69/32.png) [@billfish678](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/billfish678)\ **Post date:** [January 21, 2009, 3:38am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/ok-if-i-shouldnt-_shoot_-the-intruder-then/482060/236 "2009-01-21T03:38:18Z")
> [@Cuckoorex](#): > > What were your…tells? Well the standard thing to do in the UK is to wear little bells on your shoes. If you are wearing bells, that means you are armed and dangerous and intend harm. If you are not wearing bells, that means you can just go back to sleep, as that means they are only after the Tivo. Of course its much more complicated than that, but thats the main one. The have quite the system worked out. It’s like a gentlemans club for criminals and their suppliers. ---
**Author:** ![ivan\_astikov](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/i/58f4c7/32.png) [@ivan\_astikov](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/ivan_astikov)\ **Post date:** [January 21, 2009, 3:38am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/ok-if-i-shouldnt-_shoot_-the-intruder-then/482060/237 "2009-01-21T03:38:45Z")
> [@Cuckoorex](#): > > What were your…tells? I never needed tells whilst burgling. My alertness had me leaving several places in a hurry and with a minimum haul, after disturbing the owners. > [@billfish678](#): > > See, I told you there would be NINJAS! If I had a movie of my life, and showed you a couple of specific moments in it, you’d think I WAS a Ninja. It’s amazing what adrenalin can help you do!😃 ---
**Author:** ![Cuckoorex](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/ad7895/32.png) [@Cuckoorex](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Cuckoorex)\ **Post date:** [January 21, 2009, 3:39am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/ok-if-i-shouldnt-_shoot_-the-intruder-then/482060/238 "2009-01-21T03:39:57Z")
WHOA ---
**Author:** ![ivan\_astikov](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/i/58f4c7/32.png) [@ivan\_astikov](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/ivan_astikov)\ **Post date:** [January 21, 2009, 3:44am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/ok-if-i-shouldnt-_shoot_-the-intruder-then/482060/239 "2009-01-21T03:44:33Z")
> [@billfish678](#): > > Well the standard thing to do in the UK is to wear little bells on your shoes. > > If you are wearing bells, that means you are armed and dangerous and intend harm. Not quite right. The ones you have to worry about are the ones who don’t give a fuck about making noise even knowing you are in there. If they start heading towards your sleeping quarters, you’ve got my permission to blow the shit out of them. ---
**Author:** ![ivan\_astikov](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/i/58f4c7/32.png) [@ivan\_astikov](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/ivan_astikov)\ **Post date:** [January 21, 2009, 3:46am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/ok-if-i-shouldnt-_shoot_-the-intruder-then/482060/240 "2009-01-21T03:46:19Z")
> [@Cuckoorex](#): > > WHOA Do I detect an element of doubt? 🙂 [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/ok-if-i-shouldnt-_shoot_-the-intruder-then/482060.md?page=11) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/ok-if-i-shouldnt-_shoot_-the-intruder-then/482060.md?page=13)