# Ok, if I shouldn't \_shoot\_ the intruder, then...? **URL:** \ **Category:** Great Debates\ **Created:** [January 19, 2009, 11:15pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/ok-if-i-shouldnt-_shoot_-the-intruder-then/482060 "2009-01-19T23:15:40Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 14
**Author:** ![ivan\_astikov](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/i/58f4c7/32.png) [@ivan\_astikov](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/ivan_astikov)\ **Post date:** [January 21, 2009, 12:19pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/ok-if-i-shouldnt-_shoot_-the-intruder-then/482060/261 "2009-01-21T12:19:44Z")
> [@horsetech](#): > > Most people who know me would be shocked to hear me say anything remotely violent, but I am of the opinion that by violating one of the most basic rules of society and trespassing into my home in order to steal, you have CHOSEN to put YOURSELF in mortal peril. The homeowner has a right to assume the WORST of any scumbag breaking into a house at night with people home. The intruder has already shown themselves to have extremely poor judgment and a disregard for civil society, and you have split seconds and no xray vision to determine whether they wish harm on you and your family. You do realise that besides those evil nasty cat-raping burglars, there are also what is known as “opportunist thieves” who just nick shit because they can? This means they could have just gone out to steal your lawnmower from your back garden, noticed that the downstairs window was open, and decided to chance their arm. Is that person deserving of a blast from a shotgun, because you failed in your duty to secure your home, and minimise crime? ---
**Author:** ![Kalhoun](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/k/3bc359/32.png) [@Kalhoun](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Kalhoun)\ **Post date:** [January 21, 2009, 12:36pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/ok-if-i-shouldnt-_shoot_-the-intruder-then/482060/262 "2009-01-21T12:36:20Z")
> [@ivan\_astikov](#): > > You do realise that besides those evil nasty cat-raping burglars, there are also what is known as “opportunist thieves” who just nick shit because they can? This means they could have just gone out to steal your lawnmower from your back garden, noticed that the downstairs window was open, and decided to chance their arm. Is that person deserving of a blast from a shotgun, because you failed in your duty to secure your home, and minimise crime? My neighbor had a guy wander into his house and lay down on the couch to pass out. Do you shoot him? ---
**Author:** ![ivan\_astikov](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/i/58f4c7/32.png) [@ivan\_astikov](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/ivan_astikov)\ **Post date:** [January 21, 2009, 12:48pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/ok-if-i-shouldnt-_shoot_-the-intruder-then/482060/263 "2009-01-21T12:48:07Z")
> [@Kalhoun](#): > > My neighbor had a guy wander into his house and lay down on the couch to pass out. Do you shoot him? If I had a gun and he’d soiled his trousers, I’d be tempted, but I’d probably make him clean up at gunpoint, get him to do any odd jobs needed in the yard, and then send him on his way, remembering to make sure I locked up properly in future. ---
**Author:** ![Grumman](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/g/43a26b/32.png) [@Grumman](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Grumman)\ **Post date:** [January 21, 2009, 12:48pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/ok-if-i-shouldnt-_shoot_-the-intruder-then/482060/264 "2009-01-21T12:48:20Z")
> [@ivan\_astikov](#): > > Is that person deserving of a blast from a shotgun, because you failed in your duty to secure your home, and minimise crime? Yes. ---
**Author:** ![Huerta88](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/h/82dd89/32.png) [@Huerta88](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Huerta88)\ **Post date:** [January 21, 2009, 12:51pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/ok-if-i-shouldnt-_shoot_-the-intruder-then/482060/265 "2009-01-21T12:51:26Z")
> [@ivan\_astikov](#): > > Is that person deserving of a blast from a shotgun, because you failed in your duty to secure your home, and minimise crime? Happy to answer: probably, yes. \*I do not recognize the “duty” you impute to me to account for your deviant impulses. ---
**Author:** ![Kalhoun](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/k/3bc359/32.png) [@Kalhoun](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Kalhoun)\ **Post date:** [January 21, 2009, 12:58pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/ok-if-i-shouldnt-_shoot_-the-intruder-then/482060/266 "2009-01-21T12:58:14Z")
> [@ivan\_astikov](#): > > If I had a gun and he’d soiled his trousers, I’d be tempted, but I’d probably make him clean up at gunpoint, get him to do any odd jobs needed in the yard, and then send him on his way, remembering to make sure I locked up properly in future. Good approach. ---
**Author:** ![ivan\_astikov](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/i/58f4c7/32.png) [@ivan\_astikov](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/ivan_astikov)\ **Post date:** [January 21, 2009, 1:00pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/ok-if-i-shouldnt-_shoot_-the-intruder-then/482060/267 "2009-01-21T13:00:21Z")
> [@Huerta88](#): > > Happy to answer: probably, yes. > > \*I do not recognize the “duty” you impute to me to account for your deviant impulses. Stop with the ‘deviant impulses’ BS. There are plenty of white-collar criminals, office workers, store workers, etc, who steal things because it seems easy. Are these people all dangerous deviants, likely to take your life at the drop of a hat? You’re looking at theft as an illness in itself, when it is merely a symptom of the illness that is society. Or do you reckon there is just as much crime in an Amazonian village? Face the facts, people WILL steal your belongings if you care little enough to secure them properly. ---
**Author:** ![ivan\_astikov](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/i/58f4c7/32.png) [@ivan\_astikov](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/ivan_astikov)\ **Post date:** [January 21, 2009, 1:05pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/ok-if-i-shouldnt-_shoot_-the-intruder-then/482060/268 "2009-01-21T13:05:16Z")
Remember back in the good old days when all you could steal was land? \ Hmmm…that probably contradicts my Amazonian village and societies ills claim. Seems theft has been around for as long as there has been people. You’d have thought we’d be used to it or prepared for it by now. ---
**Author:** ![Scumpup](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/ce73a5/32.png) [@Scumpup](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Scumpup)\ **Post date:** [January 21, 2009, 1:07pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/ok-if-i-shouldnt-_shoot_-the-intruder-then/482060/269 "2009-01-21T13:07:22Z")
> [@ivan\_astikov](#): > > You do realise that besides those evil nasty cat-raping burglars, there are also what is known as “opportunist thieves” who just nick shit because they can? This means they could have just gone out to steal your lawnmower from your back garden, noticed that the downstairs window was open, and decided to chance their arm. Is that person deserving of a blast from a shotgun, because you failed in your duty to secure your home, and minimise crime? See, this is the criminal mindset at work. FTR, I have no trouble at all believing you were a petty thief. Your posts read exactly like the shit I heard coming out of the mouths of prisoners I transported and the “clients” I supervised in lock-up. You display a perverse pride in the fact that you did ill to others to benefit yourself. You shrug off having been arrested and incarcerated as “occupational hazard.” You imply that it’s okay to steal from others if they were remiss in their “duty” to secure their belongings from thieves; this after bragging upthread about the difficult entries and exits you personally pulled off. To answer your question: Yes. He does deserve a shotgun blast. If he doesn’t want to get shot, he shouldn’t be stealing. That’s the thing about criminals; in their twisted, substandard minds they believe that\_somehow\_it is okay for them to do things that harm others, yet others harming them\_even in the midst of a crime\_is a terrible thing. Why don’t you just rationalize it that getting shot is an occupational hazard, just like arrest and incarceration? Don’t like that? TFB. ---
**Author:** ![ivan\_astikov](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/i/58f4c7/32.png) [@ivan\_astikov](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/ivan_astikov)\ **Post date:** [January 21, 2009, 1:26pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/ok-if-i-shouldnt-_shoot_-the-intruder-then/482060/270 "2009-01-21T13:26:59Z")
> [@Scumpup](#): > > See, this is the criminal mindset at work. FTR, I have no trouble at all believing you were a petty thief. Your posts read exactly like the shit I heard coming out of the mouths of prisoners I transported and the “clients” I supervised in lock-up. You display a perverse pride in the fact that you did ill to others to benefit yourself. You shrug off having been arrested and incarcerated as “occupational hazard.” You imply that it’s okay to steal from others if they were remiss in their “duty” to secure their belongings from thieves; this after bragging upthread about the difficult entries and exits you personally pulled off. > To answer your question: Yes. He does deserve a shotgun blast. If he doesn’t want to get shot, he shouldn’t be stealing. That’s the thing about criminals; in their twisted, substandard minds they believe that\_somehow\_it is okay for them to do things that harm others, yet others harming them\_even in the midst of a crime\_is a terrible thing. Why don’t you just rationalize it that getting shot is an occupational hazard, just like arrest and incarceration? Don’t like that? TFB. Listen, there’s no pride or braggadacio in my responses, I am simply recounting it as it was then for me, and how it likely still is now for a lot of people. I started burgling at the age of 13, for nothing but thrills and kicks, and when I saw how easy it was, combining the thrill factor and the monetary gain had me hooked. I stopped burgling houses six years later, not because I was afraid of getting caught by the police, but because I burgled a ‘gangster’s’ house by mistake, and was made to realise the error of my ways, in that you never knew who’s house you were robbing if you were an opportunist thief. If the householders had made it harder for me, I’d have moved on to robbing business premises a lot sooner. ---
**Author:** ![Huerta88](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/h/82dd89/32.png) [@Huerta88](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Huerta88)\ **Post date:** [January 21, 2009, 1:31pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/ok-if-i-shouldnt-_shoot_-the-intruder-then/482060/271 "2009-01-21T13:31:06Z")
> [@ivan\_astikov](#): > > Stop with the ‘deviant impulses’ BS. There are plenty of white-collar criminals, office workers, store workers, etc, who steal things because it seems easy. Are these people all dangerous deviants, likely to take your life at the drop of a hat? You’re looking at theft as an illness in itself, when it is merely a symptom of the illness that is society. Or do you reckon there is just as much crime in an Amazonian village? Face the facts, people WILL steal your belongings if you care little enough to secure them properly. You purported to invoke a “duty” that doesn’t exist. I can only attribute that to some deformation of thought or character. In my world, “duties” are either legal or moral in source. Let’s start with the latter. I just opened my Bible. “Thou shalt not steal.” Looked high and low for “thou shalt not leave thy window open” or “thou shalt not tempt yon crack fiend with thine open window.” No luck. Then I opened my compendium of the English common law (if I had one). Given that for centuries and up till today, people often and reasonably left and leave their windows open for air, to ventilate smoke, to cool off, it seemed to me unimaginable that the common law, or any statute, or any contract (I think I’ve covered all the sources of legal “duties”) would impose an obligation to a property owner to make his house hermetically sealed. And guess what? I was right. Your invoking my open window “duty” failure would lose 100 times out of 100 as a defense to civil or criminal liability for theft or breaking and entering. Don’t use terms of art if you don’t understand them and cannot back them up. ---
**Author:** ![billfish678](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/7bcc69/32.png) [@billfish678](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/billfish678)\ **Post date:** [January 21, 2009, 1:34pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/ok-if-i-shouldnt-_shoot_-the-intruder-then/482060/272 "2009-01-21T13:34:47Z")
> [@ivan\_astikov](#): > > If the householders had made it harder for me, I’d have moved on to robbing business premises a lot sooner. Oh thats so much better :rolleyes: I see a future for you in mutual fund management. ---
**Author:** ![billfish678](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/7bcc69/32.png) [@billfish678](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/billfish678)\ **Post date:** [January 21, 2009, 1:37pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/ok-if-i-shouldnt-_shoot_-the-intruder-then/482060/273 "2009-01-21T13:37:02Z")
> [@horsetech](#): > > Billfish, you made my evening with the end of your dialogue. Pigs out back . . . I had relatives back in a frontier town in california back in the day. They passed down the secrets to successful business management and motivational speaking. ---
**Author:** ![Scumpup](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/ce73a5/32.png) [@Scumpup](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Scumpup)\ **Post date:** [January 21, 2009, 1:37pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/ok-if-i-shouldnt-_shoot_-the-intruder-then/482060/274 "2009-01-21T13:37:46Z")
> [@ivan\_astikov](#): > > Listen, there’s no pride or braggadacio in my responses, I am simply recounting it as it was then for me, and how it likely still is now for a lot of people. I started burgling at the age of 13, for nothing but thrills and kicks, and when I saw how easy it was, combining the thrill factor and the monetary gain had me hooked. I stopped burgling houses six years later, not because I was afraid of getting caught by the police, but because I burgled a ‘gangster’s’ house by mistake, and was made to realise the error of my ways, in that you never knew who’s house you were robbing if you were an opportunist thief. If the householders had made it harder for me, I’d have moved on to robbing business premises a lot sooner. This post is more of the same. Reading this stuff is exactly like listening to a prisoner talk. ---
**Author:** ![Jolly\_Roger](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/j/91b2a8/32.png) [@Jolly\_Roger](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Jolly_Roger)\ **Post date:** [January 21, 2009, 1:43pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/ok-if-i-shouldnt-_shoot_-the-intruder-then/482060/275 "2009-01-21T13:43:40Z")
> [@ivan\_astikov](#): > > You do realise that besides those evil nasty cat-raping burglars, there are also what is known as “opportunist thieves” who just nick shit because they can? This means they could have just gone out to steal your lawnmower from your back garden, noticed that the downstairs window was open, and decided to chance their arm. Is that person deserving of a blast from a shotgun, because you failed in your duty to secure your home, and minimise crime? Yes, because its a homeowners right to have a window open. Its not a crime to forget to shut a window or lock a door. About 16 yrs ago I did something like that. I left my barracks room door unlocked while I went to the bathroom down the hall. Another guy noticed, went into my room and took the 6 pack I had just brought. When I noticed it was gone I went to the day room and found him in there drinking it. He had given the other five beers to other people laughimg about how I left the door unlocked. I kicked his ass. Bad, too. I told him if he didn’t replace my beer he’d get another ass whoopin’ too. (Chickenshit did it too). Did he deserve to get his ass kicked and humiliated in front of other guys? Yep. ---
**Author:** ![ivan\_astikov](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/i/58f4c7/32.png) [@ivan\_astikov](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/ivan_astikov)\ **Post date:** [January 21, 2009, 1:43pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/ok-if-i-shouldnt-_shoot_-the-intruder-then/482060/276 "2009-01-21T13:43:44Z")
> [@Huerta88](#): > > You purported to invoke a “duty” that doesn’t exist. I can only attribute that to some deformation of thought or character. > > In my world, “duties” are either legal or moral in source. > > Let’s start with the latter. I just opened my Bible. “Thou shalt not steal.” Looked high and low for “thou shalt not leave thy window open” or “thou shalt not tempt yon crack fiend with thine open window.” No luck. > > Then I opened my compendium of the English common law (if I had one). Given that for centuries and up till today, people often and reasonably left and leave their windows open for air, to ventilate smoke, to cool off, it seemed to me unimaginable that the common law, or any statute, or any contract (I think I’ve covered all the sources of legal “duties”) would impose an obligation to a property owner to make his house hermetically sealed. And guess what? I was right. Your invoking my open window “duty” failure would lose 100 times out of 100 as a defense to civil or criminal liability for theft or breaking and entering. > > Don’t use terms of art if you don’t understand them and cannot back them up. The duty I’m talking about is to your conscience. Do you want to live with the fact you could have avoided a crime that led to your partner getting killed in a violent struggle, because YOU didn’t secure your shit, when you should have known better? Or, live with finding out you have blown a hole in a neighbours son’s chest because YOU didn’t secure your shit? If so, go ahead. Who am I to try and convince you different? I’m just an ex-petty criminal who knows nothing. ---
**Author:** ![Scumpup](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/ce73a5/32.png) [@Scumpup](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Scumpup)\ **Post date:** [January 21, 2009, 1:50pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/ok-if-i-shouldnt-_shoot_-the-intruder-then/482060/277 "2009-01-21T13:50:57Z")
> [@ivan\_astikov](#): > > The duty I’m talking about is to your conscience. Do you want to live with the fact you could have avoided a crime that led to your partner getting killed in a violent struggle, because YOU didn’t secure your shit, when you should have known better? Or, live with finding out you have blown a hole in a neighbours son’s chest because YOU didn’t secure your shit? If so, go ahead. Who am I to try and convince you different? I’m just an ex-petty criminal who knows nothing. Always somebody else’s fault. Another hallmark of the criminal class. ---
**Author:** ![ivan\_astikov](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/i/58f4c7/32.png) [@ivan\_astikov](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/ivan_astikov)\ **Post date:** [January 21, 2009, 1:53pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/ok-if-i-shouldnt-_shoot_-the-intruder-then/482060/278 "2009-01-21T13:53:46Z")
> [@Scumpup](#): > > This post is more of the same. Reading this stuff is exactly like listening to a prisoner talk. I’ve been there, so I suppose that might come across. But I only spent 6 of my 46 years as a burglar, and 5 of my 17 years as a criminal in jail, and if you want to judge my character on those figures, go ahead. ---
**Author:** ![billfish678](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/7bcc69/32.png) [@billfish678](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/billfish678)\ **Post date:** [January 21, 2009, 1:59pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/ok-if-i-shouldnt-_shoot_-the-intruder-then/482060/279 "2009-01-21T13:59:22Z")
> [@ivan\_astikov](#): > > The duty I’m talking about is to your conscience. Do you want to live with the fact you could have avoided a crime that led to your partner getting killed in a violent struggle, because YOU didn’t secure your shit, when you should have known better? Or, live with finding out you have blown a hole in a neighbours son’s chest because YOU didn’t secure your shit? If so, go ahead. Who am I to try and convince you different? I’m just an ex-petty criminal who knows nothing. So, now the fact that we have stuff of value is an attractive nuisance? If we just lock the doors and windows, criminals will go out and get real jobs? Its thinking and talking like this that MAKES meek honest folk WANT to blow your asses AWAY just because you steal a TIVO. Stealing is bad enough. But blaming the REAL victims? Thats disgusting. I was willing to cut you slack for you previous life of crime. But, it sounds to me that you still have that shitty mindset that as far as I am concerned earns you the priviledge of having your ass blown away sometime. ---
**Author:** ![ivan\_astikov](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/i/58f4c7/32.png) [@ivan\_astikov](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/ivan_astikov)\ **Post date:** [January 21, 2009, 2:01pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/ok-if-i-shouldnt-_shoot_-the-intruder-then/482060/280 "2009-01-21T14:01:32Z")
> [@Scumpup](#): > > Always somebody else’s fault. Another hallmark of the criminal class. You seem to be living with some sort of Utopian dream vision of a world without crime, where people will just “do the right thing”. I bet you also bang on about how everyone should earn a honest living, while forgetting all those poor police officers, social workers, unemployment agency employees, and related industries that would then be out of work. Get real, Scumpup. This isn’t the Garden Of Eden anymore. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/ok-if-i-shouldnt-_shoot_-the-intruder-then/482060.md?page=13) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/ok-if-i-shouldnt-_shoot_-the-intruder-then/482060.md?page=15)