# Ok, if I shouldn't \_shoot\_ the intruder, then...? **URL:** \ **Category:** Great Debates\ **Created:** [January 19, 2009, 11:15pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/ok-if-i-shouldnt-_shoot_-the-intruder-then/482060 "2009-01-19T23:15:40Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 17
**Author:** ![Kalhoun](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/k/3bc359/32.png) [@Kalhoun](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Kalhoun)\ **Post date:** [January 21, 2009, 3:54pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/ok-if-i-shouldnt-_shoot_-the-intruder-then/482060/321 "2009-01-21T15:54:35Z")
> [@Grumman](#): > > Personally, yes. If he is willing to prey on innocent people for his own benefit, even just financially, letting him escape with the TiVo just teaches him that crime does pay and ensures he will do so again. Well that’s just goddamn scary, for society as much as for the thief who grabs your cookie jar. ---
**Author:** ![gonzomax](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/g/e8c25b/32.png) [@gonzomax](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/gonzomax)\ **Post date:** [January 21, 2009, 3:57pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/ok-if-i-shouldnt-_shoot_-the-intruder-then/482060/322 "2009-01-21T15:57:59Z")
> [@billfish678](#): > > You are so RIGHT! my bad. > > A good friend of mine was on a Clown safari once. I though he was fricking crazy! He was using a Clown gun of course, you know like those big ass elephant guns, only bigger still! > > Well, there was a pride of Clowns around the watering hole. Fresh seltzer water had just been delivered. He picked out a nice big one with a 12 point nose. He fired just as the big bastard was giving him the eye. > > Even though it was a perfect shoot it wasnt enough. You’ve never seen a clown car move so fast. Made a gazel look like a snail (I saw a fellow tourist’s video of it, its probably on youtube somewhere now). > > Before my friend could whip out his silver cross, the clown was on him. He took a nearly fatal cream pie to the face. The only thing that saved him were the other Clowns. They eat their own wounded ya know. Even though the Alpha Clown had 6 inch diameter hole you SEE though, he was able to fend off the rest of the 2 dozen or so in the pride for a good five minutes. He even managed to kill one of the Clown cubs that the National Geo people had just put a tracker on. The trackers sounds a lot like a horn from a Model T Ford. > > Anyhow. My friend was taken away by an EMS Helicopter. It was the 3rd Clown response that month. He was in intensive care for 8 months. He lost an eye, a couple fingers, and still walks with a limp. And the stitche and scars? Oye Veh! > > He had the 12 point nose stuff and mounted. It now resides down in basement rec room. He keeps the beer down there, but if we need some brewskies, I make him go down there to get it. I refuse to. I am getting sweaty palms just typing this. That things huge, like a big beach ball. After I saw it in person I started having regular clown nightmares. Hell, I can’t even go to a beach anymore. > > He also had the shoes made into throw rugs. Of course they are huge as well, but those things are so TOUGH they will probably outlast the pyramids. He got a thousand pounds of meat (humor is the technical term) as well. I don’t like it, it taste funny. And finally, he got the giggleulous femur bronzed and uses it as a door stop. Its as long as a golf club! > > Clowns…shudder! two cannibals were eating a clown. One said, Does this taste funny to you? ---
**Author:** ![ivan\_astikov](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/i/58f4c7/32.png) [@ivan\_astikov](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/ivan_astikov)\ **Post date:** [January 21, 2009, 4:02pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/ok-if-i-shouldnt-_shoot_-the-intruder-then/482060/323 "2009-01-21T16:02:51Z")
Look, I didn’t come in here hoping or expecting to gain sympathy for or from anyone. I came in just to point out that from my own experience, people could quite easily avoid having their homes broken into and having to face killing someone in your living room( which wouldn’t do the ambience of your happy little castle much good in the long run. Unless you intend leaving every house you kill a perp in?). As for the cite asked for above, I should have included an IMO in my post. ---
**Author:** ![billfish678](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/7bcc69/32.png) [@billfish678](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/billfish678)\ **Post date:** [January 21, 2009, 4:03pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/ok-if-i-shouldnt-_shoot_-the-intruder-then/482060/324 "2009-01-21T16:03:59Z")
> [@Kalhoun](#): > > Well that’s just goddamn scary, for society as much as for the thief who grabs your cookie jar. I don’t know…as a generally upstanding member of society I find it oddly comforting. ---
**Author:** ![Scumpup](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/ce73a5/32.png) [@Scumpup](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Scumpup)\ **Post date:** [January 21, 2009, 4:06pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/ok-if-i-shouldnt-_shoot_-the-intruder-then/482060/325 "2009-01-21T16:06:13Z")
> [@Kalhoun](#): > > Well that’s just goddamn scary, for society as much as for the thief who grabs your cookie jar. Explain what that means. ---
**Author:** ![ivan\_astikov](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/i/58f4c7/32.png) [@ivan\_astikov](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/ivan_astikov)\ **Post date:** [January 21, 2009, 4:06pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/ok-if-i-shouldnt-_shoot_-the-intruder-then/482060/326 "2009-01-21T16:06:18Z")
> [@Grumman](#): > > Personally, yes. If he is willing to prey on innocent people for his own benefit, even just financially, letting him escape with the TiVo just teaches him that crime does pay and ensures he will do so again. And I’m telling you that if it wouldn’t have been so easy, and we’d have had a local youth club, I might never have gotten a taste for it. ---
**Author:** ![Scumpup](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/ce73a5/32.png) [@Scumpup](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Scumpup)\ **Post date:** [January 21, 2009, 4:08pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/ok-if-i-shouldnt-_shoot_-the-intruder-then/482060/327 "2009-01-21T16:08:14Z")
> [@ivan\_astikov](#): > > Look, I didn’t come in here hoping or expecting to gain sympathy for or from anyone. I came in just to point out that from my own experience, people could quite easily avoid having their homes broken into and having to face killing someone in your living room( which wouldn’t do the ambience of your happy little castle much good in the long run. Unless you intend leaving every house you kill a perp in?). > > As for the cite asked for above, I should have included an IMO in my post. That’s good because you sure didn’t get any. You might consider that there are also a good many thieves who wouldn’t have spent years incarcerated or got their thieving asses shot if they hadn’t thought it a good idea to take other people’s stuff. ---
**Author:** ![Scumpup](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/ce73a5/32.png) [@Scumpup](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Scumpup)\ **Post date:** [January 21, 2009, 4:10pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/ok-if-i-shouldnt-_shoot_-the-intruder-then/482060/328 "2009-01-21T16:10:47Z")
> [@ivan\_astikov](#): > > And I’m telling you that if it wouldn’t have been so easy, and we’d have had a local youth club, I might never have gotten a taste for it. You are still trying to make it somebody else’s fault. What you should have written was “If only I had never stolen from other people, I might never have developed a taste for it and ended up a convicted criminal.” Your post above is just another variation on the song of the jailbird. ---
**Author:** ![ivan\_astikov](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/i/58f4c7/32.png) [@ivan\_astikov](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/ivan_astikov)\ **Post date:** [January 21, 2009, 4:10pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/ok-if-i-shouldnt-_shoot_-the-intruder-then/482060/329 "2009-01-21T16:10:58Z")
> [@Scumpup](#): > > That’s good because you sure didn’t get any. > > You might consider that there are also a good many thieves who wouldn’t have spent years incarcerated or got their thieving asses shot if they hadn’t thought it a good idea to take other people’s stuff. Hey, it’s all down to the ‘blame culture’. We all need our scapegoats for our ills; it’s human nature. ---
**Author:** ![ivan\_astikov](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/i/58f4c7/32.png) [@ivan\_astikov](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/ivan_astikov)\ **Post date:** [January 21, 2009, 4:12pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/ok-if-i-shouldnt-_shoot_-the-intruder-then/482060/330 "2009-01-21T16:12:27Z")
> [@Scumpup](#): > > You are still trying to make it somebody else’s fault. What you should have written was “If only I had never stolen from other people, I might never have developed a taste for it and ended up a convicted criminal.” Your post above is just another variation on the song of the jailbird. - tweet tweet \* ---
**Author:** ![Fenris](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/fenris/32/498_2.png) [@Fenris](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Fenris)\ **Post date:** [January 21, 2009, 4:15pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/ok-if-i-shouldnt-_shoot_-the-intruder-then/482060/331 "2009-01-21T16:15:43Z")
> [@Jolly\_Roger](#): > > Thats BS. Yes, people should lock their doors at night and windows. I disagree–I like sleeping with the windows open. My right to sleep comfortably trumps the thief’s “right” to burgle my house without getting shot in the face. ---
**Author:** ![Kalhoun](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/k/3bc359/32.png) [@Kalhoun](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Kalhoun)\ **Post date:** [January 21, 2009, 4:15pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/ok-if-i-shouldnt-_shoot_-the-intruder-then/482060/332 "2009-01-21T16:15:58Z")
> [@Scumpup](#): > > Explain what that means. If your sense of justice is so out of proportion that you’d kill over something as inconsequential as a stereo component, we are indeed witnessing the decline of civilization. It doesn’t matter that the thief is a piece of that decline. The fact that you feel it is just to _kill_ him is just beyond comprehension. How do you handle sidewalk spitters and jaywalkers? Just kick the shit out of 'em? How do you feel about waterboarding? ---
**Author:** ![steronz](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/steronz/32/11765_2.png) [@steronz](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/steronz)\ **Post date:** [January 21, 2009, 4:16pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/ok-if-i-shouldnt-_shoot_-the-intruder-then/482060/333 "2009-01-21T16:16:16Z")
> [@Grumman](#): > > Personally, yes. If he is willing to prey on innocent people for his own benefit, even just financially, letting him escape with the TiVo just teaches him that crime does pay and ensures he will do so again. I was looking for the right quote to make my point, and here it is. **Grumman** , **Scumpup** and others are basically advocating firearm ownership and use not as a manner to protect your property or family, but rather as a manner of vigilante justice, or “teaching [criminals] that crime does [not] pay.” **ivan** is trying to get the point across that if you’re really serious about protecting your stuff, locking your doors and windows, an alarm, or even basic homeowners insurance is probably a much better strategy than hoping to hear something in the dark and run downstairs with a sidearm. I’ve said multiple times that people serious about protecting their families are better off taking a defensive position and waiting for the cavalry, and nobody seems to dispute that. What we have here is several people who really seem to advocate and take JOY in the thought of catching a crook red handed and teaching him a lesson. That’s what gets my goat. You admit that you never know if you’re being robbed by a petty thief or a drug-addled psycopath, so why you’d want to try and confront this person to make your point and/or teach a lesson is beyond me. Be safe, lock your shit up, and let some other chump risk his life to try and teach a lesson or preserve order. ---
**Author:** ![Cuckoorex](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/ad7895/32.png) [@Cuckoorex](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Cuckoorex)\ **Post date:** [January 21, 2009, 4:17pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/ok-if-i-shouldnt-_shoot_-the-intruder-then/482060/334 "2009-01-21T16:17:35Z")
> [@Kalhoun](#): > > But what about the rest of us? What are we to do with someone who has such a low boiling point that he would so easily kill someone for stealing a pile of metal? Someone who has so little regard for human life that he would put it beneath electronics without knowing all the facts (not just the fact that a stranger is in his home uninvited)? Oh, please. “So easily kill?” We’re talking about shooting someone, which may or may not kill, but it’s not like we’re talking about “taser the guy, tie him up and then proceed to go Hostel on him until he stops twitching.” Please let Ivan know where you live, so he can go all superninja on your valuables. ---
**Author:** ![Scumpup](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/ce73a5/32.png) [@Scumpup](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Scumpup)\ **Post date:** [January 21, 2009, 4:23pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/ok-if-i-shouldnt-_shoot_-the-intruder-then/482060/335 "2009-01-21T16:23:14Z")
> [@Kalhoun](#): > > If your sense of justice is so out of proportion that you’d kill over something as inconsequential as a stereo component, we are indeed witnessing the decline of civilization. It doesn’t matter that the thief is a piece of that decline. The fact that you feel it is just to _kill_ him is just beyond comprehension. How do you handle sidewalk spitters and jaywalkers? Just kick the shit out of 'em? How do you feel about waterboarding? The decline of civilization? My, that is melodramatic. Tell you what, hon, if you read a little history you’ll find that thieves are treated far more gently now than they were in the past. I’m not even talking ancient history. I’m talking about within the last couple generations. Sidewalk spitters and jaywalkers aren’t my responsibility. Spit on the floor in my house…that’s a different matter; especially if you did it just to prove that you have some “right” to spit on my floor. Yeah, you probably would end up getting the shit kicked out you. ---
**Author:** ![Scumpup](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/ce73a5/32.png) [@Scumpup](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Scumpup)\ **Post date:** [January 21, 2009, 4:29pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/ok-if-i-shouldnt-_shoot_-the-intruder-then/482060/336 "2009-01-21T16:29:10Z")
> [@steronz](#): > > I was looking for the right quote to make my point, and here it is. **Grumman** , **Scumpup** and others are basically advocating firearm ownership and use not as a manner to protect your property or family, but rather as a manner of vigilante justice, or “teaching [criminals] that crime does [not] pay.” > > **ivan** is trying to get the point across that if you’re really serious about protecting your stuff, locking your doors and windows, an alarm, or even basic homeowners insurance is probably a much better strategy than hoping to hear something in the dark and run downstairs with a sidearm. I’ve said multiple times that people serious about protecting their families are better off taking a defensive position and waiting for the cavalry, and nobody seems to dispute that. > > What we have here is several people who really seem to advocate and take JOY in the thought of catching a crook red handed and teaching him a lesson. That’s what gets my goat. You admit that you never know if you’re being robbed by a petty thief or a drug-addled psycopath, so why you’d want to try and confront this person to make your point and/or teach a lesson is beyond me. Be safe, lock your shit up, and let some other chump risk his life to try and teach a lesson or preserve order. Nice job of missing everybody’s point. I don’t _want_ to shoot anybody. What I \*want \* is to be left alone so my family can enjoy our home and possessions unmolested by criminals. One of the things I am _willing_ to do is shoot any shitbag who finds that he just can’t let us do that. His getting maimed or killed is entirely his own doing just as much as if he had pressed a gun to his own face and pulled the trigger. ---
**Author:** ![billfish678](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/7bcc69/32.png) [@billfish678](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/billfish678)\ **Post date:** [January 21, 2009, 4:31pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/ok-if-i-shouldnt-_shoot_-the-intruder-then/482060/337 "2009-01-21T16:31:10Z")
> [@Fenris](#): > > I disagree–I like sleeping with the windows open. My right to sleep comfortably trumps the thief’s “right” to burgle my house without getting shot in the face. Well, if you have a window screen the burgular won’t burgle you. Because thats a polite sign that says to him : please don’t burgle me, I do not wish to be burgled. Nor do I wish to harm you, as I know in my heart of hearts that you intend me no harm. Please see Mr. Jones down the street. He doesnt mind if he gets burgled because he is old and feeble and even leaves some of his valuable shit outside. Its a literal invitation to help yourself! He wont harm you, because he’s taken an oath dont cha know. Be careful though, he has a mixed breed ninja/rotwieller/clown tied up out back. Why the hell he has one of those things I have no idea. Those things “tells” are hard to read and they have a hard time reading a burgulars “tells”. Personally, I think that mix of breeds should be outlawed. Talk about violating the social contract and a lack of personal responsibility! But thats just me… Seriously, just get a window screen, its all there in the British Burgulars Union Code of conduct. Get a copy, read it, and rest easy my dear friend. ---
**Author:** ![Kalhoun](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/k/3bc359/32.png) [@Kalhoun](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Kalhoun)\ **Post date:** [January 21, 2009, 4:33pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/ok-if-i-shouldnt-_shoot_-the-intruder-then/482060/338 "2009-01-21T16:33:31Z")
> [@Scumpup](#): > > The decline of civilization? My, that is melodramatic. Tell you what, hon, if you read a little history you’ll find that thieves are treated far more gently now than they were in the past. I’m not even talking ancient history. I’m talking about within the last couple generations. > Sidewalk spitters and jaywalkers aren’t my responsibility. Spit on the floor in my house…that’s a different matter; especially if you did it just to prove that you have some “right” to spit on my floor. Yeah, you probably would end up getting the shit kicked out you. It’s pretty clear _nothing_ outside your castle domain is any of your concern. Hence, my impression that you are an example of social decline. ---
**Author:** ![Scumpup](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/ce73a5/32.png) [@Scumpup](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Scumpup)\ **Post date:** [January 21, 2009, 4:35pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/ok-if-i-shouldnt-_shoot_-the-intruder-then/482060/339 "2009-01-21T16:35:37Z")
> [@billfish678](#): > > Well, if you have a window screen the burgular won’t burgle you. > > Because thats a polite sign that says to him : please don’t burgle me, I do not wish to be burgled. Nor do I wish to harm you, as I know in my heart of hearts that you intend me no harm. Please see Mr. Jones down the street. He doesnt mind if he gets burgled because he is old and feeble and even leaves some of his valuable shit outside. Its a literal invitation to help yourself! He wont harm you, because he’s taken an oath dont cha know. Be careful though, he has a mixed breed ninja/rotwieller/clown tied up out back. Why the hell he has one of those things I have no idea. Those things “tells” are hard to read and they have a hard time reading a burgulars “tells”. Personally, I think that mix of breeds should be outlawed. Talk about violating the social contract and a lack of personal responsibility! But thats just me… > > Seriously, just get a window screen, its all there in the British Burgulars Union Code of conduct. > > Get a copy, read it, and rest easy my dear friend. I had a ninja/rotweller/clown once; but it was a teacup ninja/rotweiller/clown. I lived in an apartment at the time and just didn’t have room for a standard ninja/rotweiller/clown. ---
**Author:** ![steronz](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/steronz/32/11765_2.png) [@steronz](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/steronz)\ **Post date:** [January 21, 2009, 4:35pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/ok-if-i-shouldnt-_shoot_-the-intruder-then/482060/340 "2009-01-21T16:35:42Z")
> [@Scumpup](#): > > Nice job of missing everybody’s point. I don’t _want_ to shoot anybody. What I \*want \* is to be left alone so my family can enjoy our home and possessions unmolested by criminals. One of the things I am _willing_ to do is shoot any shitbag who finds that he just can’t let us do that. His getting maimed or killed is entirely his own doing just as much as if he had pressed a gun to his own face and pulled the trigger. So you’d take your handgun and go confront the noise in the living room? Why would you put yourself at risk like that? You shouldn’t ever get a CHANCE to shoot a guy holding a Tivo, because you should be concentrating on keeping yourself and your family safe. And that doesn’t involve running into an unknown situation like a cowboy. I don’t care if you’re _willing_ to do it, you should try everything you can to avoid the situation altogether. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/ok-if-i-shouldnt-_shoot_-the-intruder-then/482060.md?page=16) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/ok-if-i-shouldnt-_shoot_-the-intruder-then/482060.md?page=18)