# Ok, if I shouldn't \_shoot\_ the intruder, then...? **URL:** \ **Category:** Great Debates\ **Created:** [January 19, 2009, 11:15pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/ok-if-i-shouldnt-_shoot_-the-intruder-then/482060 "2009-01-19T23:15:40Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 18
**Author:** ![Scumpup](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/ce73a5/32.png) [@Scumpup](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Scumpup)\ **Post date:** [January 21, 2009, 4:37pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/ok-if-i-shouldnt-_shoot_-the-intruder-then/482060/341 "2009-01-21T16:37:01Z")
> [@Kalhoun](#): > > It’s pretty clear _nothing_ outside your castle domain is any of your concern. Hence, my impression that you are an example of social decline. What are you doing to hold back the Vandals, Goths, and Visigoths, then? Other, I mean, than bemoaning my brutality. ---
**Author:** ![billfish678](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/7bcc69/32.png) [@billfish678](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/billfish678)\ **Post date:** [January 21, 2009, 4:38pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/ok-if-i-shouldnt-_shoot_-the-intruder-then/482060/342 "2009-01-21T16:38:26Z")
> [@steronz](#): > > I **ivan** is trying to get the point across that if you’re really serious about protecting your stuff, locking your doors and windows, an alarm, or even basic homeowners insurance is probably a much better strategy than hoping to hear something in the dark and run downstairs with a sidearm. . Well when homeowners insurance includes some form of cloning ressurection/ technology, then I’ll let the burgular just help himself to raping/pillaging/ and killing myself or others. Once its all over, we will just reboot/reload. No harm, no foul. Heck, they can even probably erase our memories of the whole “social interaction/economic exchange” Until then, I have no problem with force, deadly or otherwise, if there is a remotely reasonable reason for it. ---
**Author:** ![Scumpup](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/ce73a5/32.png) [@Scumpup](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Scumpup)\ **Post date:** [January 21, 2009, 4:39pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/ok-if-i-shouldnt-_shoot_-the-intruder-then/482060/343 "2009-01-21T16:39:23Z")
> [@steronz](#): > > So you’d take your handgun and go confront the noise in the living room? Why would you put yourself at risk like that? You shouldn’t ever get a CHANCE to shoot a guy holding a Tivo, because you should be concentrating on keeping yourself and your family safe. And that doesn’t involve running into an unknown situation like a cowboy. > > I don’t care if you’re _willing_ to do it, you should try everything you can to avoid the situation altogether. What is your background and training that you so confidently lecture me on what I should do in a house of whose layout you are completely ignorant? ---
**Author:** ![steronz](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/steronz/32/11765_2.png) [@steronz](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/steronz)\ **Post date:** [January 21, 2009, 4:39pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/ok-if-i-shouldnt-_shoot_-the-intruder-then/482060/344 "2009-01-21T16:39:39Z")
> [@billfish678](#): > > Well when homeowners insurance includes some form of cloning ressurection/ technology, then I’ll let the burgular just help himself to raping/pillaging/ and killing myself or others. > > Once its all over, we will just reboot/reload. No harm, no foul. Heck, they can even probably erase our memories of the whole “social interaction/economic exchange” > > Until then, I have no problem with force, deadly or otherwise, if there is a remotely reasonable reason for it. Apparently you DO have a problem with reading the sentence immediately following the one you quoted. ---
**Author:** ![Cuckoorex](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/ad7895/32.png) [@Cuckoorex](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Cuckoorex)\ **Post date:** [January 21, 2009, 4:40pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/ok-if-i-shouldnt-_shoot_-the-intruder-then/482060/345 "2009-01-21T16:40:11Z")
> [@steronz](#): > > **ivan** is trying to get the point across that if you’re really serious about protecting your stuff, locking your doors and windows, an alarm, or even basic homeowners insurance is probably a much better strategy than hoping to hear something in the dark and run downstairs with a sidearm. I’m pretty sure **ivan** ’s point is that he’s a superninja modern-day Robin Hood who only stopped robbing people because he got caught too many times, and would happily rob people again if the risk of capture wasn’t so great. As for strategies for protecting your stuff; **ivan** also bragged about how difficult it was for him to get into and out of certain places, which kind of puts the lie to his bit about how it was the victim’s fault for making it so easy. He admitted to doing it for a thrill. So in his case, he would be getting shot/killed not even over electronics, but because he couldn’t figure out how to, say, go climbing or skydiving or skateboarding to feed his adrenaline addiction. As for people posting here wanting to be vigilantes; seriously? Someone breaks into your home, with your family present and in danger, with the only…tell being that someone who has no regard for law or the safety of others has invaded your sanctuary…and now they’re \*vigilantes \*for feeling justified in using a weapon to incapacitate the criminal? I’m pretty sure most everyone here has said that if at all possible they would want to incapacitate, not kill, any intruder. Again, the bleeding hearted martyrs in this thread seem to think that anyone who would defend their home against intruders must have a strappado set up in the basement right next to the waterboarding setup, just itching to catch someone crossing their property line so they can start inflicting their own brand of justice. ---
**Author:** ![billfish678](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/7bcc69/32.png) [@billfish678](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/billfish678)\ **Post date:** [January 21, 2009, 4:41pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/ok-if-i-shouldnt-_shoot_-the-intruder-then/482060/346 "2009-01-21T16:41:33Z")
> [@Scumpup](#): > > I had a ninja/rotweller/clown once; but it was a teacup ninja/rotweiller/clown. I lived in an apartment at the time and just didn’t have room for a standard ninja/rotweiller/clown. Dont let em fool you. My aunt had one of those damn things. Had the pink sweater and everything. “oh, its so cute” Cute my ass. Evil little thing ate our doberman one day when we let it out back to “play”. ---
**Author:** ![steronz](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/steronz/32/11765_2.png) [@steronz](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/steronz)\ **Post date:** [January 21, 2009, 4:42pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/ok-if-i-shouldnt-_shoot_-the-intruder-then/482060/347 "2009-01-21T16:42:24Z")
> [@Scumpup](#): > > What is your background and training that you so confidently lecture me on what I should do in a house of whose layout you are completely ignorant? I’d hate to be on that real estate tour. “4 bedroom, updated kitchen, nice views. Unfortunate bedroom layout requires ample experience and training with a handgun and the willingness to use it to protect your Tivo.” ---
**Author:** ![billfish678](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/7bcc69/32.png) [@billfish678](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/billfish678)\ **Post date:** [January 21, 2009, 4:44pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/ok-if-i-shouldnt-_shoot_-the-intruder-then/482060/348 "2009-01-21T16:44:02Z")
> [@steronz](#): > > Apparently you DO have a problem with reading the sentence immediately following the one you quoted. Pot…cough…meet kettle ---
**Author:** ![Scumpup](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/ce73a5/32.png) [@Scumpup](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Scumpup)\ **Post date:** [January 21, 2009, 4:44pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/ok-if-i-shouldnt-_shoot_-the-intruder-then/482060/349 "2009-01-21T16:44:26Z")
> [@steronz](#): > > I’d hate to be on that real estate tour. “4 bedroom, updated kitchen, nice views. Unfortunate bedroom layout requires ample experience and training with a handgun and the willingness to use it to protect your Tivo.” This doesn’t answer my question. What is your background and training that you feel confident in lecturing me on how to handle a break-in? ---
**Author:** ![Scumpup](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/ce73a5/32.png) [@Scumpup](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Scumpup)\ **Post date:** [January 21, 2009, 4:47pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/ok-if-i-shouldnt-_shoot_-the-intruder-then/482060/350 "2009-01-21T16:47:04Z")
> [@billfish678](#): > > Dont let em fool you. My aunt had one of those damn things. Had the pink sweater and everything. “oh, its so cute” > > Cute my ass. Evil little thing ate our doberman one day when we let it out back to “play”. I had to have mine put down after an unfortunate incident involving the landlord, a bucket of confetti, my teacup ninja/rotweiller/clown, and a manriki gusari. ---
**Author:** ![steronz](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/steronz/32/11765_2.png) [@steronz](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/steronz)\ **Post date:** [January 21, 2009, 4:47pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/ok-if-i-shouldnt-_shoot_-the-intruder-then/482060/351 "2009-01-21T16:47:38Z")
> [@Scumpup](#): > > This doesn’t answer my question. What is your background and training that you feel confident in lecturing me on how to handle a break-in? Sorry, I’m not a home invasion expert, but I’ve never met one who advocated confronting criminals with a handgun unless all other options are exhausted. That’s pretty much counter to everything I’ve read on the topic, and all the lectures from police I’ve received over the years. Carry on, good soldier, keep the streets clean for us. ---
**Author:** ![Shodan](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/9f8e36/32.png) [@Shodan](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Shodan)\ **Post date:** [January 21, 2009, 4:50pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/ok-if-i-shouldnt-_shoot_-the-intruder-then/482060/352 "2009-01-21T16:50:37Z")
> [@ivan\_astikov](#): > > And I’m telling you that if it wouldn’t have been so easy, and we’d have had a local youth club, I might never have gotten a taste for it. I imagine getting shot would do much to discourage such a taste as well. > [@steronz](#): > > Carry on, good soldier, keep the streets clean for us. Not streets - my living room. > [@Kalhoun](#): > > It’s pretty clear nothing outside your castle domain is any of your concern. The scenario under discussion happens in my living room. Or are you agreeing that if I shoot a burglar in my home, this is none of _your_ business? Regards, Shodan ---
**Author:** ![Huerta88](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/h/82dd89/32.png) [@Huerta88](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Huerta88)\ **Post date:** [January 21, 2009, 4:51pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/ok-if-i-shouldnt-_shoot_-the-intruder-then/482060/353 "2009-01-21T16:51:13Z")
> [@steronz](#): > > Sorry, I’m not a home invasion expert, but I’ve never met one who advocated confronting criminals with a handgun unless all other options are exhausted. That’s pretty much counter to everything I’ve read on the topic, and all the lectures from police I’ve received over the years. Carry on, good soldier, keep the streets clean for us. Not the streets. His HOME. I don’t \ anyone here has advocated a right to shoot someone for taking your bike off the street. I’d want to, but I wouldn’t and don’t think I should be allowed to (though as noted, theft was a capital crime under the common law jurisdictions till not that long ago). Homes are DIFFERENT. Homes are where you’re entitled to feel safe and set the rules. When someone is in your house without authorization, it is NEVER only about the gewgaw he’s stealing. There’s ALWAYS the potential of a threat to your well being or your family’s. Any analysis that focuses only on “taking someone’s life for a $100 hunk of crap” is incomplete. ---
**Author:** ![Scumpup](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/ce73a5/32.png) [@Scumpup](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Scumpup)\ **Post date:** [January 21, 2009, 4:51pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/ok-if-i-shouldnt-_shoot_-the-intruder-then/482060/354 "2009-01-21T16:51:14Z")
> [@steronz](#): > > Sorry, I’m not a home invasion expert, but I’ve never met one who advocated confronting criminals with a handgun. That’s pretty much counter to everything I’ve read on the topic, and all the lectures from police I’ve received over the years. Carry on, good soldier, keep the streets clean for us. I never said anything about keeping the streets clean or doing anything to protect anybody but my own family. So pack up that strawman and put it away. Sarcasm is a lot funnier, you’ll find, if you play off things I actually said instead of things you wish I’d said. Let’s see, you have no training or background in anything related to this at all. I guess I’ll go with what I learned in the Army and as a Deputy Sheriff, combined with my knowledge of the layout of my own home and the tools I have readily to hand, instead. ---
**Author:** ![ivan\_astikov](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/i/58f4c7/32.png) [@ivan\_astikov](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/ivan_astikov)\ **Post date:** [January 21, 2009, 4:52pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/ok-if-i-shouldnt-_shoot_-the-intruder-then/482060/355 "2009-01-21T16:52:48Z")
> [@Cuckoorex](#): > > I’m pretty sure **ivan** ’s point is that he’s a superninja modern-day Robin Hood who only stopped robbing people because he got caught too many times, and would happily rob people again if the risk of capture wasn’t so great. No, I got a conscience and a little wiser and started selling drugs. Victimless crime, you see. Not that I do that any longer. > [@Cuckoorex](#): > > As for strategies for protecting your stuff; **ivan** also bragged about how difficult it was for him to get into and out of certain places, which kind of puts the lie to his bit about how it was the victim’s fault for making it so easy. He admitted to doing it for a thrill. So in his case, he would be getting shot/killed not even over electronics, but because he couldn’t figure out how to, say, go climbing or skydiving or skateboarding to feed his adrenaline addiction. Again, I wasn’t bragging, I was simply stating a fact. Factories and shops were usually a little more difficult than homes, go figure! ---
**Author:** ![steronz](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/steronz/32/11765_2.png) [@steronz](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/steronz)\ **Post date:** [January 21, 2009, 4:58pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/ok-if-i-shouldnt-_shoot_-the-intruder-then/482060/356 "2009-01-21T16:58:02Z")
> [@Huerta88](#): > > There’s ALWAYS the potential of a threat to your well being or your family’s. OK, let me spin this around a bit. Let’s say you have a security monitor looking out over your living room. You hear a noise in the night, flip on the monitor, and see 2 well armed gangsters standing as lookouts, one at the door and one at the stairs, and 2 more armed bandits loading up all your electronics into a van. Do you still run in there with a handgun? ---
**Author:** ![Scumpup](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/ce73a5/32.png) [@Scumpup](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Scumpup)\ **Post date:** [January 21, 2009, 5:00pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/ok-if-i-shouldnt-_shoot_-the-intruder-then/482060/357 "2009-01-21T17:00:11Z")
> [@steronz](#): > > OK, let me spin this around a bit. Let’s say you have a security monitor looking out over your living room. You hear a noise in the night, flip on the monitor, and see 2 well armed gangsters standing as lookouts, one at the door and one at the stairs, and 2 more armed bandits loading up all your electronics into a van. Do you still run in there with a handgun? :rolleyes: No. I release the nanotech-enhanced mandrill clowns who will beat them with baseball bats, then assrape them to death, and eat them. ---
**Author:** ![ivan\_astikov](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/i/58f4c7/32.png) [@ivan\_astikov](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/ivan_astikov)\ **Post date:** [January 21, 2009, 5:02pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/ok-if-i-shouldnt-_shoot_-the-intruder-then/482060/358 "2009-01-21T17:02:15Z")
> [@steronz](#): > > OK, let me spin this around a bit. Let’s say you have a security monitor looking out over your living room. You hear a noise in the night, flip on the monitor, and see 2 well armed gangsters standing as lookouts, one at the door and one at the stairs, and 2 more armed bandits loading up all your electronics into a van. Do you still run in there with a handgun? Do you get the feeling too that he’d be thinking “Shit, I need a bigger weapon. Damn those pesky gun laws!”?😃 ---
**Author:** ![Cuckoorex](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/ad7895/32.png) [@Cuckoorex](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Cuckoorex)\ **Post date:** [January 21, 2009, 5:03pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/ok-if-i-shouldnt-_shoot_-the-intruder-then/482060/359 "2009-01-21T17:03:27Z")
Scene: Homeowner wakes up in the middle of the night, hearing odd noises downstairs. Not wanting to scare his wife and kids, he quietly creeps downstairs to check it out; maybe a raccoon got into the kitchen…? Homeowner reaches the kitchen and sees that the back door is open and there is evidence that the lock was broken. Nervous now, the homeowner begins to try to sneak back upstairs to find his phone and make sure his family is safe. At the very moment he turns around to head back, a man dressed in dark clothes comes around the corner from the living room; the homeowner, startled to say the least, lets out a cry of alarm. The petty thief, unsure of what to do, drops the TiVo he was carrying out and quickly draws and fires his 9 mm. As the homeowner drops to the ground, lights start going on upstairs and a woman frantically calls out for her husband. The thief looks at the dying man, then down at the TiVo at his feet. He says to himself, “I never thought I’d kill a man over electronics.” Then he shrugs and picks up the TiVo and runs out the door. ---
**Author:** ![billfish678](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/7bcc69/32.png) [@billfish678](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/billfish678)\ **Post date:** [January 21, 2009, 5:04pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/ok-if-i-shouldnt-_shoot_-the-intruder-then/482060/360 "2009-01-21T17:04:34Z")
I am getting tired of this vigilante straw man. THATS what happens when a citizen or a group of citizens goes after somebody they “know” did the crime AFTER (usually well after) it happens. And it sometimes implies a punishment not equal to the crime. Any fool can see at least 3 reasons why thats a bad ™ idea. But… Shooting burgular ninjas has NOTHING to do with vigilante justice. At best thats just an “unfortunate” side effect of the more pressing and immediate goals of the shoot first ask questions later homeowner. Which is to PROTECT themselves and thier family. Its dealing with the possible tragic consequences of the crime AS IT IS UNFOLDING! IF you want to argue that the WAY in which they are going about protecting thier family is retarded, have at it. You might even have a point. But, as far as I know, being retarded aint a crime. And to hear some tell it, neither should be stealing “unsecured shit”. Its still their right IMO. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/ok-if-i-shouldnt-_shoot_-the-intruder-then/482060.md?page=17) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/ok-if-i-shouldnt-_shoot_-the-intruder-then/482060.md?page=19)