# Ok, if I shouldn't \_shoot\_ the intruder, then...? **URL:** \ **Category:** Great Debates\ **Created:** [January 19, 2009, 11:15pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/ok-if-i-shouldnt-_shoot_-the-intruder-then/482060 "2009-01-19T23:15:40Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 19
**Author:** ![Huerta88](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/h/82dd89/32.png) [@Huerta88](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Huerta88)\ **Post date:** [January 21, 2009, 5:07pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/ok-if-i-shouldnt-_shoot_-the-intruder-then/482060/361 "2009-01-21T17:07:11Z")
> [@ivan\_astikov](#): > > Do you get the feeling too that he’d be thinking “Shit, I need a bigger weapon. Damn those pesky gun laws!”?😃 Wrong. I’ve nowhere said “shooting is always and in every circumstances the best approach to dealing with homebreakers.” I’ve said that I retain the right to use all options at my disposal. Sometimes that would involve brandishing my weapon. Sometimes it might involve shooting it. Sometimes it might involve stratetgid retreat. The only point is: MY house, MY choice. ---
**Author:** ![steronz](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/steronz/32/11765_2.png) [@steronz](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/steronz)\ **Post date:** [January 21, 2009, 5:08pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/ok-if-i-shouldnt-_shoot_-the-intruder-then/482060/362 "2009-01-21T17:08:31Z")
^^^ I can live with this post. Good summary. edit: billfish’s post above this one. ---
**Author:** ![Todderbob](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/e47774/32.png) [@Todderbob](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Todderbob)\ **Post date:** [January 21, 2009, 5:11pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/ok-if-i-shouldnt-_shoot_-the-intruder-then/482060/363 "2009-01-21T17:11:06Z")
> [@steronz](#): > > So you’d take your handgun and go confront the noise in the living room? Why would you put yourself at risk like that? You shouldn’t ever get a CHANCE to shoot a guy holding a Tivo, because you should be concentrating on keeping yourself and your family safe. And that doesn’t involve running into an unknown situation like a cowboy. > > I don’t care if you’re _willing_ to do it, you should try everything you can to avoid the situation altogether. Not everyone has a house that allows that. I’ve stated, on more than one occasion, in this thread, that there are houses where the livingroom is between the two sets of bedrooms. ---
**Author:** ![ivan\_astikov](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/i/58f4c7/32.png) [@ivan\_astikov](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/ivan_astikov)\ **Post date:** [January 21, 2009, 5:15pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/ok-if-i-shouldnt-_shoot_-the-intruder-then/482060/364 "2009-01-21T17:15:40Z")
> [@Cuckoorex](#): > > Scene: Homeowner wakes up in the middle of the night, hearing odd noises downstairs. Not wanting to scare his wife and kids, he quietly creeps downstairs to check it out; maybe a raccoon got into the kitchen…? > > Homeowner reaches the kitchen and sees that the back door is open and there is evidence that the lock was broken. Nervous now, the homeowner begins to try to sneak back upstairs to find his phone and make sure his family is safe. At the very moment he turns around to head back, a man dressed in dark clothes comes around the corner from the living room; the homeowner, startled to say the least, lets out a cry of alarm. The petty thief, unsure of what to do, drops the TiVo he was carrying out and quickly draws and fires his 9 mm. > > As the homeowner drops to the ground, lights start going on upstairs and a woman frantically calls out for her husband. The thief looks at the dying man, then down at the TiVo at his feet. He says to himself, “I never thought I’d kill a man over electronics.” Then he shrugs and picks up the TiVo and runs out the door. No, then he goes upstairs and shoots your screaming wife so as to leave no witnesses…all because you used shitty locks that would have kept out all but the homicidally psychopathic. And as far as I’m concerned, if they are in your home you can shoot them all you want. ---
**Author:** ![ivan\_astikov](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/i/58f4c7/32.png) [@ivan\_astikov](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/ivan_astikov)\ **Post date:** [January 21, 2009, 5:22pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/ok-if-i-shouldnt-_shoot_-the-intruder-then/482060/365 "2009-01-21T17:22:17Z")
> [@Todderbob](#): > > Not everyone has a house that allows that. > > I’ve stated, on more than one occasion, in this thread, that there are houses where the livingroom is between the two sets of bedrooms. So, anyone who ventures beyond that living room and the goodies available, can be classed as a danger to your family and not just a greedy-good-for-nothing-layabout who hasn’t quite climbed up the ladder to murder yet. If you hear them in there and then wait for them to open the door, you can fire away to your hearts content. ---
**Author:** ![Todderbob](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/e47774/32.png) [@Todderbob](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Todderbob)\ **Post date:** [January 21, 2009, 5:24pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/ok-if-i-shouldnt-_shoot_-the-intruder-then/482060/366 "2009-01-21T17:24:00Z")
> [@steronz](#): > > OK, let me spin this around a bit. Let’s say you have a security monitor looking out over your living room. You hear a noise in the night, flip on the monitor, and see 2 well armed gangsters standing as lookouts, one at the door and one at the stairs, and 2 more armed bandits loading up all your electronics into a van. Do you still run in there with a handgun? That’s 4 guys? I have a security monitor? I assume I sprung for the **really** expensive one, because this is idealized land, right? Well, I put on my type lla vest, remember, this is idealized land, and riot gear, and press the “Police Summon” button, and they show up in under 30 seconds. In the meantime, I press the “Panic Button,” just in case, and all the doors and windows in my home immediately have 2 inch thick steel plates clamp over them. In reality, burglaries don’t have 4 guys, they’re quick smash and grab operations, most people don’t even realize they’re being burglarized until after they’re confronted with the burglar himself. A friend of mine went down stairs because she thought someone knocked on the door, she got down the stairs and got hit on the head, I believe she even got a concussion. Had she had a gun on her, she never would’ve gotten that concussion, and society never would’ve racked up those medical bills. Instead, she now has a scar on her forehead three inches long. On the up side, she now has a CCW license. ---
**Author:** ![billfish678](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/7bcc69/32.png) [@billfish678](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/billfish678)\ **Post date:** [January 21, 2009, 5:24pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/ok-if-i-shouldnt-_shoot_-the-intruder-then/482060/367 "2009-01-21T17:24:26Z")
> [@ivan\_astikov](#): > > . And as far as I’m concerned, if they are in your home you can shoot them all you want. then dude…like…why the heck are you even posting in this thread then? because like you know that was kinda the whole “debate” here. Just post “burgular in your house?, shot their asses, good for you IMO” and be done with it. ---
**Author:** ![ivan\_astikov](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/i/58f4c7/32.png) [@ivan\_astikov](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/ivan_astikov)\ **Post date:** [January 21, 2009, 5:26pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/ok-if-i-shouldnt-_shoot_-the-intruder-then/482060/368 "2009-01-21T17:26:19Z")
> [@ivan\_astikov](#): > > No, then he goes upstairs and shoots your screaming wife so as to leave no witnesses…all because you used shitty locks\*\* instead of decent ones\*\* that would have kept out all but the homicidally psychopathic. And as far as I’m concerned, if they are in your home you can shoot them all you want. Missed out half a sentence in there. I’ve been in here too long. ---
**Author:** ![Todderbob](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/e47774/32.png) [@Todderbob](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Todderbob)\ **Post date:** [January 21, 2009, 5:26pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/ok-if-i-shouldnt-_shoot_-the-intruder-then/482060/369 "2009-01-21T17:26:47Z")
> [@ivan\_astikov](#): > > So, anyone who ventures beyond that living room and the goodies available, can be classed as a danger to your family and not just a greedy-good-for-nothing-layabout who hasn’t quite climbed up the ladder to murder yet. If you hear them in there and then wait for them to open the door, you can fire away to your hearts content. Except… one cannot defend their children if they’re in a different portion of the house. Me, for instance, my room is in the basement. My fathers room is upstairs. Many of the homes in this area have basement theaters, this one is just layed out slightly different in the basement, with a bedroom and livingroom instead of a theater. If a burglar was to break into my home, and assume there would be expensive electronics, and I was a few years younger and didn’t have firearms in my room, my father would have no choice but to make his way onto the first floor, and the way our house is layed out, overlook the entire first floor and be seen by it, on the way down, and then into the basement or to confront the criminal. You cannot be so arrogant as to assume that you know the best way for others to defend their families when you haven’t even seen the layout of their house, can you? ---
**Author:** ![Cuckoorex](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/ad7895/32.png) [@Cuckoorex](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Cuckoorex)\ **Post date:** [January 21, 2009, 5:34pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/ok-if-i-shouldnt-_shoot_-the-intruder-then/482060/370 "2009-01-21T17:34:15Z")
> [@ivan\_astikov](#): > > No, then he goes upstairs and shoots your screaming wife so as to leave no witnesses…all because you used shitty locks that would have kept out all but the homicidally psychopathic. And as far as I’m concerned, if they are in your home you can shoot them all you want. AGAIN with the “it’s the victim’s fault” shit. You shouldn’t drive your family anywhere either because there might be a drunk driver destined to hit your car head-on, and it’s YOUR FAULT for driving on the same street. ---
**Author:** ![Grumman](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/g/43a26b/32.png) [@Grumman](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Grumman)\ **Post date:** [January 21, 2009, 5:34pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/ok-if-i-shouldnt-_shoot_-the-intruder-then/482060/371 "2009-01-21T17:34:50Z")
> [@Kalhoun](#): > > The fact that you feel it is just to _kill_ him is just beyond comprehension. How do you handle sidewalk spitters and jaywalkers? Just kick the shit out of 'em? I’m pretty sure that unlike thieves, sidewalk spitters and jaywalkers are not rewarded in direct relation to how much harm they cause to other people. In fact, I don’t know that either crime involves harming other people at all. I’m not saying that shooting a burglar is better than letting him be arrested, or even letting him get away without the goods, but if the only choices are that he gets away with the loot or he gets shot, I’d prefer the option that doesn’t encourage him to continue breaking into people’s houses and taking their stuff. ---
**Author:** ![billfish678](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/7bcc69/32.png) [@billfish678](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/billfish678)\ **Post date:** [January 21, 2009, 5:48pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/ok-if-i-shouldnt-_shoot_-the-intruder-then/482060/372 "2009-01-21T17:48:47Z")
two scenarios Universe : Too Bad, so Sad Judge : We find that you were in fact confronted by a criminal brandishing a gun and had no reasonable choice but to fire on him before he fired on you. Therefore, we find you not guilty of any crime and are free to go. Homeowner : Thank you your honor. I would like to say I did not enjoy doing so, and if I had felt I had had any other reasonable response that would have NOT lead to his death I would have taken it. My heart goes out to any friends and family he may have had. Universe : “Vigilante” Judge : We find in fact that you were confronted by criminal brandishing a gun and had no reasonable choice but to fire on him before he fired on you. Therefore we find you not guilty of any crime and are free to go. Soldier of Fortune Spokesmodel : Thanks Judge! Yeee Fucking Haw. That night was the best damn night of my life. I’ve been waiting and training for it for years. I know one day some dumbass lowlife would be stupid enough to try to break into my fortress and steal my priceless hummel collection. Hell, I had a orgasm as I fired the first shoot. Hot dog, anybody want my porn collection? I don’t need it no more. I’ll just relive this night over and over again. Darwin wins! Weep and cry you moo foo’s out there. O"Tools bar around the corner! Booze is on me! Assuming the same facts in either universe. Either outcome is perfectly fine by me “justice wise”. ---
**Author:** ![Kalhoun](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/k/3bc359/32.png) [@Kalhoun](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Kalhoun)\ **Post date:** [January 21, 2009, 6:01pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/ok-if-i-shouldnt-_shoot_-the-intruder-then/482060/373 "2009-01-21T18:01:15Z")
> [@Shodan](#): > > Or are you agreeing that if I shoot a burglar in my home, this is none of _your_ business? > > Regards, > Shodan No, I’m saying that it’s _everybody’s_ business when people shoot people under the guise of protecting their family, when it’s really that they’re protecting their stuff and equating the worth of that stuff to the worth of someone’s life. It’s called _civilization._ And when your uncivilized behavior is worse than the perpetrator’s, I tend to get concerned. ---
**Author:** ![billfish678](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/7bcc69/32.png) [@billfish678](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/billfish678)\ **Post date:** [January 21, 2009, 6:04pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/ok-if-i-shouldnt-_shoot_-the-intruder-then/482060/374 "2009-01-21T18:04:57Z")
> [@Kalhoun](#): > > No, I’m saying that it’s _everybody’s_ business when people shoot people under the guise of protecting their family, when it’s really that they’re protecting their stuff and equating the worth of that stuff to the worth of someone’s life. It’s called _civilization._ And when your uncivilized behavior is worse than the perpetrator’s, I tend to get concerned. Well, when God hands you a perfectly calibrated Guise and Worse detectometer get back to us regular joes just trying to get by honestly in life :rolleyes: ---
**Author:** ![Cuckoorex](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/ad7895/32.png) [@Cuckoorex](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Cuckoorex)\ **Post date:** [January 21, 2009, 6:05pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/ok-if-i-shouldnt-_shoot_-the-intruder-then/482060/375 "2009-01-21T18:05:30Z")
> [@Kalhoun](#): > > No, I’m saying that it’s _everybody’s_ business when people shoot people under the guise of protecting their family, when it’s really that they’re protecting their stuff and equating the worth of that stuff to the worth of someone’s life. It’s called _civilization._ And when your uncivilized behavior is worse than the perpetrator’s, I tend to get concerned. Mr. Thief really should know that by breaking into a home, he is risking his life. HE considers “stuff” to be worth the risk to his life, otherwise he doesn’t break in. So really, Mr. Thief is in total agreement with the horrible, barbaric homeowner who shoots him over his “stuff.” ---
**Author:** ![Kalhoun](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/k/3bc359/32.png) [@Kalhoun](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Kalhoun)\ **Post date:** [January 21, 2009, 6:07pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/ok-if-i-shouldnt-_shoot_-the-intruder-then/482060/376 "2009-01-21T18:07:02Z")
> [@billfish678](#): > > I am getting tired of this vigilante straw man. > > THATS what happens when a citizen or a group of citizens goes after somebody they “know” did the crime AFTER (usually well after) it happens. And it sometimes implies a punishment not equal to the crime. > > Any fool can see at least 3 reasons why thats a bad ™ idea. > > But… > > Shooting burgular ninjas has NOTHING to do with vigilante justice. At best thats just an “unfortunate” side effect of the more pressing and immediate goals of the shoot first ask questions later homeowner. > > Which is to PROTECT themselves and thier family. > > Its dealing with the possible tragic consequences of the crime AS IT IS UNFOLDING! > > IF you want to argue that the WAY in which they are going about protecting thier family is retarded, have at it. You might even have a point. But, as far as I know, being retarded aint a crime. And to hear some tell it, neither should be stealing “unsecured shit”. > > Its still their right IMO. According to this definition, it is vigilante behavior: 1 > [@](#): > > . a member of a vigilance committee. > 2. any person who takes the law into his or her own hands, as by avenging a crime. > –adjective 3. done violently and summarily, without recourse to lawful procedures: vigilante justice. Now, some jurisdictions may say it’s ok to kill someone for stealing your stuff, but some of the posters here state that they’d do the killing no matter what. ---
**Author:** ![Kalhoun](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/k/3bc359/32.png) [@Kalhoun](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Kalhoun)\ **Post date:** [January 21, 2009, 6:11pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/ok-if-i-shouldnt-_shoot_-the-intruder-then/482060/377 "2009-01-21T18:11:00Z")
> [@billfish678](#): > > Well, when God hands you a perfectly calibrated Guise and Worse detectometer get back to us regular joes just trying to get by honestly in life > :rolleyes: Oh, I see…YOU regular Joes…like there’s something wrong with people who don’t shoot people for stealing their stuff. Got it. :rolleyes: right back at ya. ---
**Author:** ![Shodan](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/9f8e36/32.png) [@Shodan](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Shodan)\ **Post date:** [January 21, 2009, 6:11pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/ok-if-i-shouldnt-_shoot_-the-intruder-then/482060/378 "2009-01-21T18:11:36Z")
> [@Kalhoun](#): > > And when your uncivilized behavior is worse than the perpetrator’s, I tend to get concerned. I respectfully decline to agree that shooting someone who poses a threat to my family, as I have stipulated, is worse than breaking into an occupied house in order to rob it. Your rather feeble attempts to equate “protecting my family” with “protecting my stuff” notwithstanding. Regards, Shodan ---
**Author:** ![billfish678](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/7bcc69/32.png) [@billfish678](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/billfish678)\ **Post date:** [January 21, 2009, 6:11pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/ok-if-i-shouldnt-_shoot_-the-intruder-then/482060/379 "2009-01-21T18:11:48Z")
> [@Kalhoun](#): > > According to this definition, it is vigilante behavior: > > 1 > > Now, some jurisdictions may say it’s ok to kill someone for stealing your stuff, but some of the posters here state that they’d do the killing no matter what. Avenging means AFTER the fact :rolleyes: Also, virtually nobody here is KILLING if need be because of the damn TIVO The are killing to protect life and limb. ---
**Author:** ![Huerta88](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/h/82dd89/32.png) [@Huerta88](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Huerta88)\ **Post date:** [January 21, 2009, 6:13pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/ok-if-i-shouldnt-_shoot_-the-intruder-then/482060/380 "2009-01-21T18:13:15Z")
> [@billfish678](#): > > Avenging means AFTER the fact :rolleyes: What’s the word – it’s on the tip of my tongue – what is the word he’s looking for??? Oh. “Stopping.” Or maybe “preventing.” [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/ok-if-i-shouldnt-_shoot_-the-intruder-then/482060.md?page=18) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/ok-if-i-shouldnt-_shoot_-the-intruder-then/482060.md?page=20)