# Ok, if I shouldn't \_shoot\_ the intruder, then...? **URL:** \ **Category:** Great Debates\ **Created:** [January 19, 2009, 11:15pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/ok-if-i-shouldnt-_shoot_-the-intruder-then/482060 "2009-01-19T23:15:40Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 26
**Author:** ![Jolly\_Roger](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/j/91b2a8/32.png) [@Jolly\_Roger](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Jolly_Roger)\ **Post date:** [January 21, 2009, 10:32pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/ok-if-i-shouldnt-_shoot_-the-intruder-then/482060/501 "2009-01-21T22:32:49Z")
> [@Scumpup](#): > > Yeah, we wouldn’t want to upset the poor dear by making him feel threatened while he is invading our home, stealing our belongings, and considering what else he’d like to do while he’s there. Like kick in the door and rape and pillage. Jeezuz, when did it become a sin to defend yourself? ---
**Author:** ![ivan\_astikov](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/i/58f4c7/32.png) [@ivan\_astikov](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/ivan_astikov)\ **Post date:** [January 21, 2009, 10:33pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/ok-if-i-shouldnt-_shoot_-the-intruder-then/482060/502 "2009-01-21T22:33:59Z")
> [@Jolly\_Roger](#): > > I say again at what point does the criminal bear responsibility for any harm done to him while breaking into someones house? :smack: Criminals don’t do responsible. Would a man with 3 young kids who goes out to do an armed blag, be deemed responsible? By the time a criminal gets to the stage where he is prepared to commit violence readily to get what he wants - your worst enemy - the only thing you can do when you catch them is put them to some positive use in a controlled environment. Or you can do it your way, and shoot them dead and avoid the courts. Unless you get the criminally inclined before their late teens, it’s doubtful, barring extreme circumstances that they are going to change their attitude to life. How about offering these youths the option of going in the forces, instead of jail? Instead of putting youths in detention centres, send them to cadet school, or something. Prevention is better than curing, surely? ---
**Author:** ![Kalhoun](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/k/3bc359/32.png) [@Kalhoun](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Kalhoun)\ **Post date:** [January 21, 2009, 10:34pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/ok-if-i-shouldnt-_shoot_-the-intruder-then/482060/503 "2009-01-21T22:34:32Z")
> [@Jolly\_Roger](#): > > If I have a gun and the burglar doesn’t I’m defusing the situation. The burglar can lie prone while I call 911 or inflame the situation by resisting. Its my fucking house. If he makes a threatening move he’s the one making things worse, not me. > > How did we come to the point where the criminal is now innocent against the wrathful homeowner that is content to live in peace as long as you don’t break into his house? This is ridiculous. If I don’t use a gun but kick the guys ass am I now a bad person for beating up the poor little criminal who broke into my house? > > I say again at what point does the criminal bear responsibility for any harm done to him while breaking into someones house? You _might_ be diffusing the situation. You don’t know. Your gun could be the thing that makes him draw HIS gun. And if he was content with stealing your shit, but now feels like he has to defend himself, you’ve put everyone in the house in danger. You might miss. Your gun might jam. You might be too afraid to actually pull the trigger, even though the gun is pointed at the guy. YOU DON’T KNOW. The stuff I have in my home will never be worth more than the life of a non-threatening intruder. And I certainly don’t want to push someone to the point where they feel they have to become violent in order to get out of the situation alive. ---
**Author:** ![Scumpup](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/ce73a5/32.png) [@Scumpup](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Scumpup)\ **Post date:** [January 21, 2009, 10:36pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/ok-if-i-shouldnt-_shoot_-the-intruder-then/482060/504 "2009-01-21T22:36:09Z")
The military doesn’t need or want criminals. Here in the US, convicted criminals are barred from service. For good reason, too. If you put a criminal in uniform, do you know what you get? A criminal in uniform. ---
**Author:** ![Scumpup](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/ce73a5/32.png) [@Scumpup](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Scumpup)\ **Post date:** [January 21, 2009, 10:37pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/ok-if-i-shouldnt-_shoot_-the-intruder-then/482060/505 "2009-01-21T22:37:14Z")
> [@](#): > > non-threatening intruder. This is a contradiction in terms. ---
**Author:** ![Kalhoun](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/k/3bc359/32.png) [@Kalhoun](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Kalhoun)\ **Post date:** [January 21, 2009, 10:37pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/ok-if-i-shouldnt-_shoot_-the-intruder-then/482060/506 "2009-01-21T22:37:31Z")
> [@Jolly\_Roger](#): > > Like kick in the door and rape and pillage. Jeezuz, when did it become a sin to defend yourself? Are you talking about defending _yourself_ or defending _your stuff?_ These two things are not the same and should not be dealt with in the same way. ---
**Author:** ![Scumpup](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/ce73a5/32.png) [@Scumpup](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Scumpup)\ **Post date:** [January 21, 2009, 10:39pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/ok-if-i-shouldnt-_shoot_-the-intruder-then/482060/507 "2009-01-21T22:39:01Z")
> [@Kalhoun](#): > > Are you talking about defending _yourself_ or defending _your stuff?_ These two things are not the same and should not be dealt with in the same way. You still haven’t explained how to know for sure which one Mr. Intruder intends to violate. ---
**Author:** ![begbert2](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/begbert2/32/3357_2.png) [@begbert2](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/begbert2)\ **Post date:** [January 21, 2009, 10:40pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/ok-if-i-shouldnt-_shoot_-the-intruder-then/482060/508 "2009-01-21T22:40:41Z")
> [@Kalhoun](#): > > Are you talking about defending _yourself_ or defending _your stuff?_ These two things are not the same and should not be dealt with in the same way. And they haven’t been. If you read the posts, you’ll find that running away with the Tivo isn’t enough to get you shot - running _toward_ the gun-toting home-owner is what does it. But feel free to go on responding to your fantastic imagination rather than the actual presented positions of those whom you are arguing at. ---
**Author:** ![ivan\_astikov](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/i/58f4c7/32.png) [@ivan\_astikov](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/ivan_astikov)\ **Post date:** [January 21, 2009, 10:40pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/ok-if-i-shouldnt-_shoot_-the-intruder-then/482060/509 "2009-01-21T22:40:48Z")
> [@Scumpup](#): > > The military doesn’t need or want criminals. Here in the US, convicted criminals are barred from service. For good reason, too. If you put a criminal in uniform, do you know what you get? A criminal in uniform. So you are ready to make judgement on a persons life before they have even reached adulthood? Your compassion knows no bounds, does it? ---
**Author:** ![Todderbob](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/e47774/32.png) [@Todderbob](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Todderbob)\ **Post date:** [January 21, 2009, 10:42pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/ok-if-i-shouldnt-_shoot_-the-intruder-then/482060/510 "2009-01-21T22:42:32Z")
> [@ivan\_astikov](#): > > So you are ready to make judgement on a persons life before they have even reached adulthood? Your compassion knows no bounds, does it? Minors records are typically expunged (Correct word?) before adulthood, for the very reason you mention. Nice try, though. ---
**Author:** ![billfish678](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/7bcc69/32.png) [@billfish678](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/billfish678)\ **Post date:** [January 21, 2009, 10:42pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/ok-if-i-shouldnt-_shoot_-the-intruder-then/482060/511 "2009-01-21T22:42:41Z")
> [@Jolly\_Roger](#): > > Like kick in the door and rape and pillage. Jeezuz, when did it become a sin to defend yourself? Definitely sometime after WW2. The actual date seems a bit hard to pin down. ---
**Author:** ![Scumpup](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/ce73a5/32.png) [@Scumpup](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Scumpup)\ **Post date:** [January 21, 2009, 10:42pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/ok-if-i-shouldnt-_shoot_-the-intruder-then/482060/512 "2009-01-21T22:42:57Z")
> [@ivan\_astikov](#): > > So you are ready to make judgement on a persons life before they have even reached adulthood? Your compassion knows no bounds, does it? Not me, Robin Hood. The US Military decided that for themselves after enough experience with criminals in uniform. ---
**Author:** ![Jolly\_Roger](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/j/91b2a8/32.png) [@Jolly\_Roger](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Jolly_Roger)\ **Post date:** [January 21, 2009, 10:45pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/ok-if-i-shouldnt-_shoot_-the-intruder-then/482060/513 "2009-01-21T22:45:57Z")
> [@Kalhoun](#): > > You _might_ be diffusing the situation. You don’t know. Your gun could be the thing that makes him draw HIS gun. He’d better be the fucking Flash because I’d have already been aiming at him. He’s drawing his gun? What makes you think I’m going to let him finish that? his having a gun in my house while breaking in makes him an untenable threat that must be eliminated now. So he’s escalated the situation not me. > [@](#): > > And if he was content with stealing your shit, but now feels like he has to defend himself, you’ve put everyone in the house in danger . Yeah, its my fault. How dare I live there with my shit. I shoulda let him take it. After all, I’m rolling in dough. :rolleyes: > [@](#): > > You might miss. Doubtful. I’m rated expert on rifle and pistols. At close range, I could put one in his center mass without a hitch. > [@](#): > > Your gun might jam. And Superman might fly down and jump into the way of the bullets. Oh, but the crook might have kryptonite! guess I’m still fucked. Damn, I shouldn’t tried to defend myself. > [@](#): > > You might be too afraid to actually pull the trigger, even though the gun is pointed at the guy. YOU DON’T KNOW. Highly unlikely. My job requires me to be able to shoot at people from time to time, and while i’m no gun nut, I’m pretty good at it. And the last time I was in a postion to fire on someone I was within 1 second of it when they surrendered. But hey, make up more scenarios that explain why i should let this guy roam freely in my house. Because by not defending myself I could be telling him to kill me and rape my wife. YOU DON’T KNOW. > [@](#): > > The stuff I have in my home will never be worth more than the life of a non-threatening intruder. My stuff is not worth the life of a person. But a person in my home that may or may not be a crazy person is not worth me risking it. If able to stop him with minimum force, hallelujah…if it requires deadly force…and I WILL be the judge of it, not you…because its MY HOUSE and FAMILY…well, fuck, i’ll kill him. I won’t like it, and I won’t enjoy it, but I’m not chancing it that he’s not some whackjob that would love to have my head in the freezer. > [@](#): > > And I certainly don’t want to push someone to the point where they feel they have to become violent in order to get out of the situation alive. \*\*\*Thats what the burglar should be thinking. \*\*\* So when it is the criminals fault again? ---
**Author:** ![billfish678](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/7bcc69/32.png) [@billfish678](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/billfish678)\ **Post date:** [January 21, 2009, 10:45pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/ok-if-i-shouldnt-_shoot_-the-intruder-then/482060/514 "2009-01-21T22:45:58Z")
> [@ivan\_astikov](#): > > So you are ready to make judgement on a persons life before they have even reached adulthood? Your compassion knows no bounds, does it? I have plenty of compassion. Take dogs. Folks shoud be resposible for em. Folks should train en and treat right. I am all for society encouraging dogs to be all they can be. Once a rabid/wild dog invades my home, while I might regret having to do what I have to do and wish that society or the owner had not failed the dog, I really don’t see any other reasonable option. ---
**Author:** ![Kalhoun](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/k/3bc359/32.png) [@Kalhoun](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Kalhoun)\ **Post date:** [January 21, 2009, 10:48pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/ok-if-i-shouldnt-_shoot_-the-intruder-then/482060/515 "2009-01-21T22:48:01Z")
> [@Scumpup](#): > > This is a contradiction in terms. Sez you. A burglar is not necessarily a threat to me. ---
**Author:** ![Scumpup](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/ce73a5/32.png) [@Scumpup](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Scumpup)\ **Post date:** [January 21, 2009, 10:49pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/ok-if-i-shouldnt-_shoot_-the-intruder-then/482060/516 "2009-01-21T22:49:19Z")
> [@](#): > > How dare I live there with my shit. can’t breathe…laughing…I think something just burst… ---
**Author:** ![ivan\_astikov](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/i/58f4c7/32.png) [@ivan\_astikov](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/ivan_astikov)\ **Post date:** [January 21, 2009, 10:50pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/ok-if-i-shouldnt-_shoot_-the-intruder-then/482060/517 "2009-01-21T22:50:57Z")
> [@Scumpup](#): > > This is a contradiction in terms. No, here’s how you distinguish between threatening and none threatening. example a. Slimy opportunist burglar enters your home because your security is piss poor. Takes advantage of situation hoping against any type of confrontation…but being a criminal, still prepared to take that chance. Because until they are nicked, they never believe it is going to happen. If they thought about shit like that too much, they’d never pinch anything! example b. Burglar kicks in your front door while you are having your tea, or while you are in bed, armed and in no mood to fuck about. Fortunately, I imagine these types are very rare, despite what the media would have you believe. Now, is one of them distinctively less dangerous than the other? Do they both deserve to die for invading your personal space? ---
**Author:** ![Stealth\_Potato](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/d78d45/32.png) [@Stealth\_Potato](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Stealth_Potato)\ **Post date:** [January 21, 2009, 10:52pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/ok-if-i-shouldnt-_shoot_-the-intruder-then/482060/518 "2009-01-21T22:52:20Z")
> [@Todderbob](#): > > And what about those of us who live 20 minutes, minimum, from the nearest police station? Actually, I have had occasion to be very impressed by the response time of some departments, even in extremely rural areas. Right now I live basically out in the middle of nowhere (about 90 miles north of Seattle if anyone’s wondering about my out-of-date location tag :P). Last October in the middle of the night a small airplane came hurtling out of the sky, missing our house by feet, and crashed into some trees. Four minutes after I placed the 9-1-1 call a couple of sheriff’s deputies arrived, followed very quickly by the volunteer fire department and ambulance. The pilot died on impact, but the incredibly quick reaction of local emergency services probably saved the lives of his passengers. Still, four minutes is not typical, and even if it were, it’s far too long to wait when dealing with an immediate threat. > [@Jolly\_Roger](#): > > So now people getting mugged are to be blamed for being in the wrong place at the wrong time? A tourist that wanders into a bad neighborhood is now at fault for not carrying an uzi? I’m pretty sure that a lot of people will disagree with that. That again is like saying the rape victim shouldn’t have worn the tight blouse, and its utterly asinine. I was just about to say this. It’s blaming the victim at its finest. > [@Kalhoun](#): > > You _might_ be diffusing the situation. You don’t know. Your gun could be the thing that makes him draw HIS gun. And if he was content with stealing your shit, but now feels like he has to defend himself, you’ve put everyone in the house in danger. You might miss. Your gun might jam. You might be too afraid to actually pull the trigger, even though the gun is pointed at the guy. YOU DON’T KNOW. This is why I purchase guns from reliable manufacturers: they don’t jam. 😉 I’ve put thousands of rounds through my Kimber Custom II 1911, and it only ever jammed twice during its “break in” period, and since then, it’s been solid as a rock. And anyway, it’s a single-action pistol that I always store “cocked and locked,” so I’m at least guaranteed a first shot even if it does jam. My other defensive option is a Remington 870 12-gauge shotgun – I don’t think it’s even physically _possible_ for those things to jam. Certainly I’ve never heard of it happening. :dubious: > [@](#): > > The stuff I have in my home will never be worth more than the life of a non-threatening intruder. And I certainly don’t want to push someone to the point where they feel they have to become violent in order to get out of the situation alive. What is this “non-threatening intruder” you keep talking about? On my planet, the act of breaking into somebody’s _home_ is a grave threat, one from which the aggressor must repent with extreme haste if they wish to avoid being the subject of a decisively forceful intervention. Yeah, _maybe_ the burglar doesn’t mean to be a threat to my safety. He’s already broken into my home, though, so here’s the million-dollar-question: why the _fuck_ should I give him the benefit of the doubt, especially when the safety of my family might be on the line? ---
**Author:** ![Jolly\_Roger](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/j/91b2a8/32.png) [@Jolly\_Roger](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Jolly_Roger)\ **Post date:** [January 21, 2009, 10:52pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/ok-if-i-shouldnt-_shoot_-the-intruder-then/482060/519 "2009-01-21T22:52:43Z")
> [@ivan\_astikov](#): > > :smack: Criminals don’t do responsible. Would a man with 3 young kids who goes out to do an armed blag, be deemed responsible? Oh. so its my fault for having stuff that makes them criminals. > [@](#): > > By the time a criminal gets to the stage where he is prepared to commit violence readily to get what he wants - your worst enemy - the only thing you can do when you catch them is put them to some positive use in a controlled environment. Prison? works for me. Boot hill? Don’t really care since as you said they bear no personal responsibility for the harm that they cause. Thats like a mad dog, ain’t it? They usually get put down. > [@](#): > > Or you can do it your way, and shoot them dead and avoid the courts. Again, I have never said “KILL KILL KILL EM ALL!”. Stop trying to make it seem like we’re all out to murder criminals like some kinda internet Star Chamber. Its old, its silly and its not correct in the scenario laid out. Ypou know it, you just don’t want to admit that criminals who break into Joe (mm’s house kinda asked for it by breaking in. But hell, Joe 9mm has a nice TiVo, and cheap windows. Guess its Joe’s fault, huh? After all Little thugbert only wanted some thrills and a TiVo…and Mrs. 9mm has a nice caboose… > [@](#): > > Unless you get the criminally inclined before their late teens, it’s doubtful, barring extreme circumstances that they are going to change their attitude to life. How about offering these youths the option of going in the forces, instead of jail? Instead of putting youths in detention centres, send them to cadet school, or something. Prevention is better than curing, surely? former recruiter. They can’t join. Period. You know, because we have some standards and we don’t want people who can’t be responsible for themselves. ---
**Author:** ![Scumpup](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/ce73a5/32.png) [@Scumpup](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Scumpup)\ **Post date:** [January 21, 2009, 10:52pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/ok-if-i-shouldnt-_shoot_-the-intruder-then/482060/520 "2009-01-21T22:52:51Z")
> [@Kalhoun](#): > > Sez you. A burglar is not necessarily a threat to me. For the love of God, please…PLEASE…tell me how to infallibly tell the threatening ones from the non-threatening variety. I can’t stand the suspense any longer. Weeee! My 5000th post. I think I’ll go out and shoot a clown to celebrate! [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/ok-if-i-shouldnt-_shoot_-the-intruder-then/482060.md?page=25) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/ok-if-i-shouldnt-_shoot_-the-intruder-then/482060.md?page=27)