# Ok, if I shouldn't \_shoot\_ the intruder, then...? **URL:** \ **Category:** Great Debates\ **Created:** [January 19, 2009, 11:15pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/ok-if-i-shouldnt-_shoot_-the-intruder-then/482060 "2009-01-19T23:15:40Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 27
**Author:** ![Kalhoun](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/k/3bc359/32.png) [@Kalhoun](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Kalhoun)\ **Post date:** [January 21, 2009, 10:53pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/ok-if-i-shouldnt-_shoot_-the-intruder-then/482060/521 "2009-01-21T22:53:13Z")
> [@Jolly\_Roger](#): > > He’d better be the fucking Flash because I’d have already been aiming at him. He’s drawing his gun? What makes you think I’m going to let him finish that? his having a gun in my house while breaking in makes him an untenable threat that must be eliminated now. So he’s escalated the situation not me. > > . > > Yeah, its my fault. How dare I live there with my shit. I shoulda let him take it. After all, I’m rolling in dough. :rolleyes: > > Doubtful. I’m rated expert on rifle and pistols. At close range, I could put one in his center mass without a hitch. > > And Superman might fly down and jump into the way of the bullets. Oh, but the crook might have kryptonite! guess I’m still fucked. Damn, I shouldn’t tried to defend myself. > > Highly unlikely. My job requires me to be able to shoot at people from time to time, and while i’m no gun nut, I’m pretty good at it. And the last time I was in a postion to fire on someone I was within 1 second of it when they surrendered. But hey, make up more scenarios that explain why i should let this guy roam freely in my house. Because by not defending myself I could be telling him to kill me and rape my wife. YOU DON’T KNOW. > > My stuff is not worth the life of a person. But a person in my home that may or may not be a crazy person is not worth me risking it. If able to stop him with minimum force, hallelujah…if it requires deadly force…and I WILL be the judge of it, not you…because its MY HOUSE and FAMILY…well, fuck, i’ll kill him. I won’t like it, and I won’t enjoy it, but I’m not chancing it that he’s not some whackjob that would love to have my head in the freezer. > > \*\*\*Thats what the burglar should be thinking. \*\*\* > > So when it is the criminals fault again? There might even be another intruder in the house. YOU DON’T KNOW. And while you’re pulling a gun on his buddy, he’s dropping you in your tracks. Then it’s off to rape the women folk. ---
**Author:** ![ivan\_astikov](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/i/58f4c7/32.png) [@ivan\_astikov](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/ivan_astikov)\ **Post date:** [January 21, 2009, 10:53pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/ok-if-i-shouldnt-_shoot_-the-intruder-then/482060/522 "2009-01-21T22:53:55Z")
> [@Scumpup](#): > > Not me, Robin Hood. The US Military decided that for themselves after enough experience with criminals in uniform. They had obviously never seen “The Dirty Dozen”. What a pity, it was a smashing movie. 🙂 ---
**Author:** ![billfish678](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/7bcc69/32.png) [@billfish678](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/billfish678)\ **Post date:** [January 21, 2009, 10:56pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/ok-if-i-shouldnt-_shoot_-the-intruder-then/482060/523 "2009-01-21T22:56:42Z")
> [@Scumpup](#): > > Weeee! My 5000th post. I think I’ll go out and shoot a clown to celebrate! Don’t, thats suicide man! We need you alive and armed for the cause comrade! ---
**Author:** ![Todderbob](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/e47774/32.png) [@Todderbob](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Todderbob)\ **Post date:** [January 21, 2009, 10:56pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/ok-if-i-shouldnt-_shoot_-the-intruder-then/482060/524 "2009-01-21T22:56:47Z")
> [@Scumpup](#): > > For the love of God, please…PLEASE…tell me how to infallibly tell the threatening ones from the non-threatening variety. I can’t stand the suspense any longer. > > Weeee! My 5000th post. I think I’ll go out and shoot a clown to celebrate! Duh, you read their … tells. ---
**Author:** ![Shodan](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/9f8e36/32.png) [@Shodan](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Shodan)\ **Post date:** [January 21, 2009, 10:58pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/ok-if-i-shouldnt-_shoot_-the-intruder-then/482060/525 "2009-01-21T22:58:35Z")
> [@Kalhoun](#): > > The person who draws a gun on an intruder who isn’t brandishing a weapon risks inflaming the situation. This sounds very much like the implication that burglars prefer to attack those who are not armed. This seems to me to be - well, counter-intuitive is the polite term. I have avoided this to date, but I don’t think I can do so anymore. Do you have a cite for this notion? Something like a survey of burglars in prison who marked Yes to the question “Does the risk of getting your silly ass shot off make it more likely that you will assault a homeowner?” Thanks in advance. Regards, Shodan ---
**Author:** ![Scumpup](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/ce73a5/32.png) [@Scumpup](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Scumpup)\ **Post date:** [January 21, 2009, 11:02pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/ok-if-i-shouldnt-_shoot_-the-intruder-then/482060/526 "2009-01-21T23:02:03Z")
> [@ivan\_astikov](#): > > No, here’s how you distinguish between threatening and none threatening. > > example a. Slimy opportunist burglar enters your home because your security is piss poor. Takes advantage of situation hoping against any type of confrontation…but being a criminal, still prepared to take that chance. Because until they are nicked, they never believe it is going to happen. If they thought about shit like that too much, they’d never pinch anything! > > example b. Burglar kicks in your front door while you are having your tea, or while you are in bed, armed and in no mood to fuck about. Fortunately, I imagine these types are very rare, despite what the media would have you believe. > > Now, is one of them distinctively less dangerous than the other? Do they both deserve to die for invading your personal space? Both types of shitbag will end up with some extra holes God never gave them if they don’t flee at the first opportunity using a route that doesn’t give me the impression they are rushing me, maneuvering for better position, or going for one of the rooms where wife or child resides. Perhaps a better option for either shitbag would be to drop limply face down to the floor, sobbing, begging me to call the po-po to come get them, and to please not blow their face out through their ass. This should be done from a spread-eagled position so that I can clearly see both hands at all times. ---
**Author:** ![ivan\_astikov](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/i/58f4c7/32.png) [@ivan\_astikov](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/ivan_astikov)\ **Post date:** [January 21, 2009, 11:02pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/ok-if-i-shouldnt-_shoot_-the-intruder-then/482060/527 "2009-01-21T23:02:43Z")
> [@Scumpup](#): > > For the love of God, please…PLEASE…tell me how to infallibly tell the threatening ones from the non-threatening variety. I can’t stand the suspense any longer. I’ve told you. One prefers to sneak about undetected. The other doesn’t give a shit about making a noise, and in your country, probably already has his gun out. He knows exactly where you are coming from, and you are rushing blind into a room, not even knowing who is there. Remember, you could have avoided it with enough of a security deterrent. > [@Scumpup](#): > > Weeee! My 5000th post. I think I’ll go out and shoot a clown to celebrate! Shoot one for me…I HATE CLOWNS! ---
**Author:** ![Jolly\_Roger](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/j/91b2a8/32.png) [@Jolly\_Roger](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Jolly_Roger)\ **Post date:** [January 21, 2009, 11:03pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/ok-if-i-shouldnt-_shoot_-the-intruder-then/482060/528 "2009-01-21T23:03:22Z")
> [@ivan\_astikov](#): > > So you are ready to make judgement on a persons life before they have even reached adulthood? Your compassion knows no bounds, does it? I’ll take that one. Look, I had a guy come into the station in 2005 and want to join. I ran the standard backgrpound checks. This guy was a stone criminal and he was only 18. The list of “thrill seeking” break ins, and drug charges were staggering. I told him to go away and sin no more. He then went to the Marines, the USAF and the Navy…not realizing that we all get the same checks. Turned down. Period. No waiver, not a chance. Because its not our fault his mother didn’t hug him or his father didn’t take him to ball games. Sometimes actions have consequences and his proved that he was not only irresponsible, but stupid too. Now, you may not have ever served, and I’m not going to turn this into a military thread, but I can tell you right now that is not the kind of person I want in my squad when the shit goes down. It has nothing to do with compassion it has to do with the stability of the armed forces. A person that has the record your speaking of would be a detriment to the unit and the forces. There are actual statistics about it too, though i haven’t seen them since 2003. (people with minor criminal records that can be waived were shown to be unreliable and discharged within their first year of service for bad conduct). If you thinks thats a bad thing for not letting Johnny '“I’ll rob you blind” Thugson join the army then feel free to write your congresscritter. don’t have the time or inclination? how little compassion you have. ---
**Author:** ![Flyhalf](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/f/ea5d25/32.png) [@Flyhalf](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Flyhalf)\ **Post date:** [January 21, 2009, 11:05pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/ok-if-i-shouldnt-_shoot_-the-intruder-then/482060/529 "2009-01-21T23:05:39Z")
> [@Kalhoun](#): > > No, I’m saying that it’s _everybody’s_ business when people shoot people under the guise of protecting their family, when it’s really that they’re protecting their stuff and equating the worth of that stuff to the worth of someone’s life. It’s called _civilization._ And when your uncivilized behavior is worse than the perpetrator’s, I tend to get concerned. Why does the criminal get a pass re: _civilization_? ---
**Author:** ![Shodan](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/9f8e36/32.png) [@Shodan](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Shodan)\ **Post date:** [January 21, 2009, 11:05pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/ok-if-i-shouldnt-_shoot_-the-intruder-then/482060/530 "2009-01-21T23:05:39Z")
That hasn’t happened for a while. Regards, Shodan ---
**Author:** ![Jolly\_Roger](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/j/91b2a8/32.png) [@Jolly\_Roger](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Jolly_Roger)\ **Post date:** [January 21, 2009, 11:06pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/ok-if-i-shouldnt-_shoot_-the-intruder-then/482060/531 "2009-01-21T23:06:08Z")
> [@Kalhoun](#): > > There might even be another intruder in the house. YOU DON’T KNOW. And while you’re pulling a gun on his buddy, he’s dropping you in your tracks. Then it’s off to rape the women folk. Or I shoot 'em both because his friend is an idiot and his gun jams. So when does the criminal bear any responsibility or is the 11th commandment 'Thou shalt not defend your home and property and family.". Still waiting on that, since any hypothetical scenario can have alternate outcomes. Is there ever a time when defending yourself isn’t bad? if not mail me your TV. I don’t feel like carrying it. ---
**Author:** ![Scumpup](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/ce73a5/32.png) [@Scumpup](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Scumpup)\ **Post date:** [January 21, 2009, 11:20pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/ok-if-i-shouldnt-_shoot_-the-intruder-then/482060/532 "2009-01-21T23:20:57Z")
> [@Flyhalf](#): > > Why does the criminal get a pass re: _civilization_? Don’t you understand? Thuggie McThuggerson can’t help himself. The only way to prove that we are the civilized ones is to let him commit his crimes in peace and safety. ---
**Author:** ![Grumman](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/g/43a26b/32.png) [@Grumman](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Grumman)\ **Post date:** [January 21, 2009, 11:23pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/ok-if-i-shouldnt-_shoot_-the-intruder-then/482060/533 "2009-01-21T23:23:01Z")
> [@Kalhoun](#): > > Moving might be harder than purchasing a gun, but it’s infinitely easier than killing an unarmed drunk with a VCR under his arm. I believe this hypothesis requires more testing. (I kid, I kid!) ---
**Author:** ![Kalhoun](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/k/3bc359/32.png) [@Kalhoun](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Kalhoun)\ **Post date:** [January 21, 2009, 11:24pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/ok-if-i-shouldnt-_shoot_-the-intruder-then/482060/534 "2009-01-21T23:24:39Z")
> [@Stealth\_Potato](#): > > Actually, I have had occasion to be very impressed by the response time of some departments, even in extremely rural areas. Right now I live basically out in the middle of nowhere (about 90 miles north of Seattle if anyone’s wondering about my out-of-date location tag :P). Last October in the middle of the night a small airplane came hurtling out of the sky, missing our house by feet, and crashed into some trees. Four minutes after I placed the 9-1-1 call a couple of sheriff’s deputies arrived, followed very quickly by the volunteer fire department and ambulance. The pilot died on impact, but the incredibly quick reaction of local emergency services probably saved the lives of his passengers. > > Still, four minutes is not typical, and even if it were, it’s far too long to wait when dealing with an immediate threat. > > I was just about to say this. It’s blaming the victim at its finest. > > This is why I purchase guns from reliable manufacturers: they don’t jam. 😉 I’ve put thousands of rounds through my Kimber Custom II 1911, and it only ever jammed twice during its “break in” period, and since then, it’s been solid as a rock. And anyway, it’s a single-action pistol that I always store “cocked and locked,” so I’m at least guaranteed a first shot even if it does jam. My other defensive option is a Remington 870 12-gauge shotgun – I don’t think it’s even physically _possible_ for those things to jam. Certainly I’ve never heard of it happening. :dubious: > > What is this “non-threatening intruder” you keep talking about? On my planet, the act of breaking into somebody’s _home_ is a grave threat, one from which the aggressor must repent with extreme haste if they wish to avoid being the subject of a decisively forceful intervention. > > Yeah, _maybe_ the burglar doesn’t mean to be a threat to my safety. He’s already broken into my home, though, so here’s the million-dollar-question: why the _fuck_ should I give him the benefit of the doubt, especially when the safety of my family might be on the line? Sorry…I’m not (personally) threatened by people who want to steal my shit. I’m threatened by people who try to harm me. The guy we’re talking about in this thread has shown no signs of wanting to do that. If he does, that’s a different story. However, the odds are he just wants to grab my stuff and get the hell outta Dodge. Either way, removing myself from the situation is more likely to result in fewer lives lost than drawing on him will. It would be far worse to kill someone who _wasn’t_ trying to kill me than it would be to replace some stuff. ---
**Author:** ![Kalhoun](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/k/3bc359/32.png) [@Kalhoun](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Kalhoun)\ **Post date:** [January 21, 2009, 11:28pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/ok-if-i-shouldnt-_shoot_-the-intruder-then/482060/535 "2009-01-21T23:28:33Z")
> [@Jolly\_Roger](#): > > Or I shoot 'em both because his friend is an idiot and his gun jams. > > So when does the criminal bear any responsibility or is the 11th commandment 'Thou shalt not defend your home and property and family.". Still waiting on that, since any hypothetical scenario can have alternate outcomes. Is there ever a time when defending yourself isn’t bad? > > if not mail me your TV. I don’t feel like carrying it. You keep harping on this. No one said the criminal bears no responsibility for the crime. If I missed it, please point it out. The question is whether people who are simply stealing your stuff deserve to die for that crime. **Scumpup** says they definitely deserve to die for stealing his belongings, even if he’s unarmed and even if he’s made no threatening moves indicating he intends to harm someone. I disagree. And I think it’s indicative of a bigger social ill. Simple. ---
**Author:** ![billfish678](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/7bcc69/32.png) [@billfish678](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/billfish678)\ **Post date:** [January 21, 2009, 11:30pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/ok-if-i-shouldnt-_shoot_-the-intruder-then/482060/536 "2009-01-21T23:30:15Z")
> [@Kalhoun](#): > > Sorry…I’m not (personally) threatened by people who want to steal my shit. I’m threatened by people who try to harm me. The guy we’re talking about in this thread has shown no signs of wanting to do that. If he does, that’s a different story. However, the odds are he just wants to grab my stuff and get the hell outta Dodge. Either way, removing myself from the situation is more likely to result in fewer lives lost than drawing on him will. It would be far worse to kill someone who _wasn’t_ trying to kill me than it would be to replace some stuff. Oh I see… They are just like the wild Clowns on the Savannah. Move slowwlyy and don’t look em in the eye and all will be well. ---
**Author:** ![Cuckoorex](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/ad7895/32.png) [@Cuckoorex](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Cuckoorex)\ **Post date:** [January 21, 2009, 11:30pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/ok-if-i-shouldnt-_shoot_-the-intruder-then/482060/537 "2009-01-21T23:30:18Z")
Great. So the thief doesn’t get shot at by you. He goes on to the next job and does get shot. Doesn’t matter. ---
**Author:** ![Cuckoorex](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/ad7895/32.png) [@Cuckoorex](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Cuckoorex)\ **Post date:** [January 21, 2009, 11:33pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/ok-if-i-shouldnt-_shoot_-the-intruder-then/482060/538 "2009-01-21T23:33:45Z")
> [@Kalhoun](#): > > You keep harping on this. No one said the criminal bears no responsibility for the crime. If I missed it, please point it out. > > The question is whether people who are simply stealing your stuff deserve to die for that crime. **Scumpup** says they definitely deserve to die for stealing his belongings, even if he’s unarmed and even if he’s made no threatening moves indicating he intends to harm someone. I disagree. And I think it’s indicative of a bigger social ill. Simple. Oh come on already! Lots of times now people have said that they would opt for a nonlethal option first. You are literally the only one imagining a homeowner sitting near the door with gun in hand just waiting to kill someone. ---
**Author:** ![begbert2](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/begbert2/32/3357_2.png) [@begbert2](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/begbert2)\ **Post date:** [January 21, 2009, 11:36pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/ok-if-i-shouldnt-_shoot_-the-intruder-then/482060/539 "2009-01-21T23:36:05Z")
> [@Kalhoun](#): > > **Scumpup** says they definitely deserve to die for stealing his belongings, even if he’s unarmed and even if he’s made no threatening moves indicating he intends to harm someone. Cite? ---
**Author:** ![billfish678](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/7bcc69/32.png) [@billfish678](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/billfish678)\ **Post date:** [January 21, 2009, 11:37pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/ok-if-i-shouldnt-_shoot_-the-intruder-then/482060/540 "2009-01-21T23:37:15Z")
> [@Kalhoun](#): > > The question is whether people who are simply stealing your stuff deserve to die for that crime. . You don’t get it do you? DESERVE comes into question AFTER the fact, like say during a trial. DESERVE has NOTHING to do with equation for the startled homeowner late at night wondering what the hell is going to happen. And what up with your new double standard? First, us shoot em up types are somehow supposed to know how things will shake out and therefore NOT have or use a gun. Yet, if a shoot em up type says he will have or use a gun, you come up with all kinds of cock n bull scenarios that involve shooty mcshooter having NO IDEA what the scenario REALLY is or how it will shake out. WHICH ONE IS IT? [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/ok-if-i-shouldnt-_shoot_-the-intruder-then/482060.md?page=26) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/ok-if-i-shouldnt-_shoot_-the-intruder-then/482060.md?page=28)