# Ok, if I shouldn't \_shoot\_ the intruder, then...? **URL:** \ **Category:** Great Debates\ **Created:** [January 19, 2009, 11:15pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/ok-if-i-shouldnt-_shoot_-the-intruder-then/482060 "2009-01-19T23:15:40Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 28
**Author:** ![Jolly\_Roger](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/j/91b2a8/32.png) [@Jolly\_Roger](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Jolly_Roger)\ **Post date:** [January 21, 2009, 11:38pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/ok-if-i-shouldnt-_shoot_-the-intruder-then/482060/541 "2009-01-21T23:38:20Z")
> [@Kalhoun](#): > > Sorry…I’m not (personally) threatened by people who want to steal my shit. I’m threatened by people who try to harm me. The guy we’re talking about in this thread has shown no signs of wanting to do that. If he does, that’s a different story. However, the odds are he just wants to grab my stuff and get the hell outta Dodge. Either way, removing myself from the situation is more likely to result in fewer lives lost than drawing on him will. It would be far worse to kill someone who _wasn’t_ trying to kill me than it would be to replace some stuff. Using something you said YOU DON’T KNOW. Maybe the Thief came to steal your stuff but really gets off on beating people up, or raping them or cutting ogff their pinkie toes. Maybe hes been waiting to kill someone and hey, while he’s in your house seeing how you’re being all chicken and stuff, he might as well kill you too. YOU DON’T KNOW and by breaking in he’s already crossed aline that removes any good intentions you think he may have had. I’m not willing to take the chance on that if someone breaks in my home. If he doesn’t surrender or pulls out so much as a nail clipper, he’s catching a bullet. So, the guy we’re talking about is confronted by an armed homeowner and does not immediately capitulate and surrender. He gets shot. how am I to remove myself from the situation? He’s in MY fucking house! hide? what about any family in other rooms? Too bad for them, huh? What if he comes into my room? I’m not fucking hiding in my house…for one thing, theres no place for me to really hide anyway…(because you don’t know the layouts of anyones house or compisition of their family) so how do I remove myself? Beg? Cry? Or attempt to defend my home, property and family? Now, you can try to twist that into some kind of 'You guys just want to kill someone" thing, but its silly. The guy broke in…no one said kill him when he surrenders. Everyone to my knowledge said “if he makes a threatening move or does not surrender I’d fire”. You don’t agree, fine…you’re easy to rob, then. But don’t paint those that say they’d defend themselves as misanthropic psychopaths. ---
**Author:** ![Cuckoorex](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/ad7895/32.png) [@Cuckoorex](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Cuckoorex)\ **Post date:** [January 21, 2009, 11:39pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/ok-if-i-shouldnt-_shoot_-the-intruder-then/482060/542 "2009-01-21T23:39:55Z")
It’s whatever scenario convinces us bloodthirsty monsters to let Lil Billy get away with whatever crimes he wants. ---
**Author:** ![Stealth\_Potato](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/d78d45/32.png) [@Stealth\_Potato](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Stealth_Potato)\ **Post date:** [January 21, 2009, 11:41pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/ok-if-i-shouldnt-_shoot_-the-intruder-then/482060/543 "2009-01-21T23:41:17Z")
> [@Kalhoun](#): > > Sorry…I’m not (personally) threatened by people who want to steal my shit. I’m threatened by people who try to harm me. The guy we’re talking about in this thread has shown no signs of wanting to do that. If he does, that’s a different story. However, the odds are he just wants to grab my stuff and get the hell outta Dodge. Either way, removing myself from the situation is more likely to result in fewer lives lost than drawing on him will. It would be far worse to kill someone who _wasn’t_ trying to kill me than it would be to replace some stuff. If the guy has no intention of harming me, then it still seems like my best move is to stop him from taking my stuff. If he’s really such just a poor little harmless non-threatening criminal, he’s going to surrender or flee the moment he sees my gun, and I get out of the situation without even being inconvenienced by the loss of my stuff. If instead he responds by doing anything other than surrendering or fleeing (and he has about a tenth of a second to choose), anything that happens to him is on his head, not mine. I still fail to see why I should give him the benefit of the doubt. He took the initiative to violate my security first. I’m going to violate his unless he can _very quickly_ remove the threat to my person that he deliberately initiated by breaking into my home. It’s not that someone breaking into another person’s home to steal their TiVo _deserves_ to die; it’s just that he doesn’t deserve the benefit of the doubt, and he does deserve to be treated as a threat. It’s up to him at that point to prove that he’s _not_ a threat, and if he winds up getting shot, society should not mourn him. Decline of civilization indeed! When has tolerance of crime _ever_ been a healthy aspect of civilization? ---
**Author:** ![Kalhoun](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/k/3bc359/32.png) [@Kalhoun](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Kalhoun)\ **Post date:** [January 21, 2009, 11:42pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/ok-if-i-shouldnt-_shoot_-the-intruder-then/482060/544 "2009-01-21T23:42:56Z")
> [@begbert2](#): > > Cite? > [@](#): > > Quote: > Originally Posted by ivan astikov > You do realise that besides those evil nasty cat-raping burglars, there are also what is known as “opportunist thieves” who just nick shit because they can? This means they could have just gone out to steal your lawnmower from your back garden, noticed that the downstairs window was open, and decided to chance their arm. Is that person deserving of a blast from a shotgun, because you failed in your duty to secure your home, and minimise crime? > > …and then **Scumpup** said: > See, this is the criminal mindset at work. FTR, I have no trouble at all believing you were a petty thief. Your posts read exactly like the shit I heard coming out of the mouths of prisoners I transported and the “clients” I supervised in lock-up. You display a perverse pride in the fact that you did ill to others to benefit yourself. You shrug off having been arrested and incarcerated as “occupational hazard.” You imply that it’s okay to steal from others if they were remiss in their “duty” to secure their belongings from thieves; this after bragging upthread about the difficult entries and exits you personally pulled off. > \*\*To answer your question: Yes. He does deserve a shotgun blast. If he doesn’t want to get shot, he shouldn’t be stealing. \*\*That’s the thing about criminals; in their twisted, substandard minds they believe that\_somehow\_it is okay for them to do things that harm others, yet others harming them\_even in the midst of a crime\_is a terrible thing. Why don’t you just rationalize it that getting shot is an occupational hazard, just like arrest and incarceration? Don’t like that? TFB. Now, I never said (contrary to multiple accusations that I did) that criminals should get a free pass or that they somehow have a right to take shit from an inadequately secured house. All I said is that people who are stealing as opposed to harming people shouldn’t get shot for it. ---
**Author:** ![Jolly\_Roger](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/j/91b2a8/32.png) [@Jolly\_Roger](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Jolly_Roger)\ **Post date:** [January 21, 2009, 11:44pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/ok-if-i-shouldnt-_shoot_-the-intruder-then/482060/545 "2009-01-21T23:44:50Z")
> [@Kalhoun](#): > > You keep harping on this. No one said the criminal bears no responsibility for the crime. If I missed it, please point it out. > > . \*\*Ivan \*\*has already implied it, but you didn’t say it, I stand corrected. So if you agree that the the criminal bears the responsibility than it makes sense he’s responsible for being shot by Mr. Homeowner by not surrendering immediately. And I missed the post where **Scumpup** said criminals deserve to die for stealing his stuff. (its a long thread, did he actually say that?) I do recall him saying that he’d shoot a person breaking into his house, but again, the guy wouldn’t get shot if he didn’t break into the house. Because how is Scumpup to know what the guy intends to do once in the house? He doesn’t. If i were him, I’d be less inclinerd to give the breaker-inner the benefit of the doubt. ---
**Author:** ![billfish678](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/7bcc69/32.png) [@billfish678](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/billfish678)\ **Post date:** [January 21, 2009, 11:46pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/ok-if-i-shouldnt-_shoot_-the-intruder-then/482060/546 "2009-01-21T23:46:36Z")
> [@Kalhoun](#): > > . All I said is that people who are stealing as opposed to harming people shouldn’t get shot for it. AS far as I know, US courts don’t shoot people for stealing stuff. Even China is probably lightening up on that practice. ---
**Author:** ![Jolly\_Roger](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/j/91b2a8/32.png) [@Jolly\_Roger](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Jolly_Roger)\ **Post date:** [January 21, 2009, 11:54pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/ok-if-i-shouldnt-_shoot_-the-intruder-then/482060/547 "2009-01-21T23:54:26Z")
> [@Kalhoun](#): > > Now, I never said (contrary to multiple accusations that I did) that criminals should get a free pass or that they somehow have a right to take shit from an inadequately secured house. All I said is that people who are stealing as opposed to harming people shouldn’t get shot for it. In fairness, Scumpup did not say in the cite they deserved to die, but they deserved to a shotgun blast. Thin, I know, but it hardly makes him a bloodthirsty maniac, especially in the context of the post he was responding to. Scumpup did say in your quote: _ **If he doesn’t want to get shot, he shouldn’t be stealing.** _ Seems reasonable to me. If I break into my neighbors house and he has a gun and feels threatened and shoots me i pretty much asked for it. He knows me, but not well enough to know what I might do to him or his family. I might be a crazy fucker ready to skin his wife and cat alive and make lampshades out of 'em. I’m sure he’d rather be telling his wife and the police “I didn’t want to kill him, but I was scared he might hurt me or my wife and kids! I don’t know what he was doing in here at 400 in the morning and he came towards me when I said put your hands up and stand still!” than “Fuck…he stabbed me in the eyes and cut my wife’s head off and put it in the oven! I shouldn’t have given him the benefit of the doubt.”. ---
**Author:** ![Kalhoun](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/k/3bc359/32.png) [@Kalhoun](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Kalhoun)\ **Post date:** [January 21, 2009, 11:54pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/ok-if-i-shouldnt-_shoot_-the-intruder-then/482060/548 "2009-01-21T23:54:57Z")
> [@Jolly\_Roger](#): > > Using something you said YOU DON’T KNOW. Maybe the Thief came to steal your stuff but really gets off on beating people up, or raping them or cutting ogff their pinkie toes. Maybe hes been waiting to kill someone and hey, while he’s in your house seeing how you’re being all chicken and stuff, he might as well kill you too. YOU DON’T KNOW and by breaking in he’s already crossed aline that removes any good intentions you think he may have had. I’m not willing to take the chance on that if someone breaks in my home. If he doesn’t surrender or pulls out so much as a nail clipper, he’s catching a bullet. That’s right…I _don’t_ know. And I’m not the type who assumes the worst…even among criminals. > [@](#): > > So, the guy we’re talking about is confronted by an armed homeowner and does not immediately capitulate and surrender. He gets shot. how am I to remove myself from the situation? He’s in MY fucking house! hide? what about any family in other rooms? Too bad for them, huh? What if he comes into my room? I’m not fucking hiding in my house…for one thing, theres no place for me to really hide anyway…(because you don’t know the layouts of anyones house or compisition of their family) so how do I remove myself? Beg? Cry? Or attempt to defend my home, property and family? Well maybe YOU aren’t hiding in your own house, but you could, in order to avoid killing someone. I would. I would go to any length to avoid killing someone, especially if they didn’t threaten my personal safety or that of my family. > [@](#): > > Now, you can try to twist that into some kind of 'You guys just want to kill someone" thing, but its silly. The guy broke in…no one said kill him when he surrenders. Everyone to my knowledge said “if he makes a threatening move or does not surrender I’d fire”. You don’t agree, fine…you’re easy to rob, then. But don’t paint those that say they’d defend themselves as misanthropic psychopaths. I spefically commented about those who said burglars, without qualification, the ones who are just stealing your shit, deserve to die. I strongly disagree. ---
**Author:** ![Cuckoorex](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/ad7895/32.png) [@Cuckoorex](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Cuckoorex)\ **Post date:** [January 21, 2009, 11:58pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/ok-if-i-shouldnt-_shoot_-the-intruder-then/482060/549 "2009-01-21T23:58:05Z")
I think we should rename criminals “prison kittens” so less people will die. ---
**Author:** ![billfish678](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/7bcc69/32.png) [@billfish678](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/billfish678)\ **Post date:** [January 22, 2009, 12:01am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/ok-if-i-shouldnt-_shoot_-the-intruder-then/482060/550 "2009-01-22T00:01:24Z")
> [@Kalhoun](#): > > I spefically commented about those who said burglars, without qualification, the ones who are just stealing your shit, deserve to die. I strongly disagree. I doubt you’ll find anyone who said that. And even if you did, I imagine the problem lies more with your reading and context comprehension skills than anybody elses blood thirsty nature. I’d like a cite for that, because I aint wadding through 500 plus posts. ---
**Author:** ![billfish678](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/7bcc69/32.png) [@billfish678](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/billfish678)\ **Post date:** [January 22, 2009, 12:06am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/ok-if-i-shouldnt-_shoot_-the-intruder-then/482060/551 "2009-01-22T00:06:37Z")
> [@Cuckoorex](#): > > I think we should rename criminals “prison kittens” so less people will die. Yes, but then the number of homeowner ventilated “prison kittens” will skyrocket. Think how BAD that will make the stats look! Big picture man, you gotta keep the Big Picture in mind. ---
**Author:** ![Kalhoun](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/k/3bc359/32.png) [@Kalhoun](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Kalhoun)\ **Post date:** [January 22, 2009, 12:12am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/ok-if-i-shouldnt-_shoot_-the-intruder-then/482060/552 "2009-01-22T00:12:20Z")
> [@Jolly\_Roger](#): > > In fairness, Scumpup did not say in the cite they deserved to die, but they deserved to a shotgun blast. Thin, I know, but it hardly makes him a bloodthirsty maniac, especially in the context of the post he was responding to. > > Scumpup did say in your quote: _ **If he doesn’t want to get shot, he shouldn’t be stealing.** _ Well, I was going by the second rule of handling firearms: 1. Never assume a gun isn’t loaded (always check it yourself) and 1. Never point a gun at someone unless you intend to kill them. ---
**Author:** ![Jolly\_Roger](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/j/91b2a8/32.png) [@Jolly\_Roger](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Jolly_Roger)\ **Post date:** [January 22, 2009, 12:12am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/ok-if-i-shouldnt-_shoot_-the-intruder-then/482060/553 "2009-01-22T00:12:45Z")
> [@Kalhoun](#): > > That’s right…I _don’t_ know. And I’m not the type who assumes the worst…even among criminals. Yeah, well, I’ve known some criminals. I assume the worst and they’ve never ceased to deliver on it. You can feel how you think is right, but I assume the worst of anyone that breaks into my house in the middle of the night…heck, at any time of day or night. they aren’t breaking in to leave me gold bars or anything. > [@](#): > > Well maybe YOU aren’t hiding in your own house, but you could, in order to avoid killing someone. I would. I would go to any length to avoid killing someone, especially if they didn’t threaten my personal safety or that of my family. You missed the part where I said there is really _no where to hide in here_. The closets don’t lock and they’re packed so full its not an option. Not that its your decision on my fight or flight options. If i open the closet its gonna be to get a weapon, my flak vest and kevlar helmet. Breaking into my house _ **is** _ threatening my personal safety, family and property. I don’t read minds nor am i inclined to read phantom “tells” with my jedi powers in that situation. I am inclined to use weapons and my training to neutralize the intruder. If the intruder requires deadly force, so be it. We don’t let thieves in the military and we’re kinda picky about 'em coming into our homes too. > [@](#): > > I spefically commented about those who said burglars, without qualification, the ones who are just stealing your shit, deserve to die. I strongly disagree. And I disagree with the post you quoted by Scumpup. In context he didn’t say they deserve to die. I aadmitted its splitting hairs, but Scumpup did not say thieves deserve to die. if they catch a bullet in the act and die, oh well. I’d rather hear that on the news than about the rape/death/injury of an innocent person by a thief. Only Scumpup can tell you if he thinks thieves deserve to die period. But I don’t recall him saying that. I do recall several people, myself included saying that if a burglar does not surrender or flee in a nonthreatening manner and gets shot and/or killed they did it to themselves. ---
**Author:** ![Stealth\_Potato](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/d78d45/32.png) [@Stealth\_Potato](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Stealth_Potato)\ **Post date:** [January 22, 2009, 12:13am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/ok-if-i-shouldnt-_shoot_-the-intruder-then/482060/554 "2009-01-22T00:13:19Z")
> [@Cuckoorex](#): > > I think we should rename criminals “prison kittens” so less people will die. You owe me a new keyboard. 😛 ---
**Author:** ![Jolly\_Roger](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/j/91b2a8/32.png) [@Jolly\_Roger](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Jolly_Roger)\ **Post date:** [January 22, 2009, 12:15am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/ok-if-i-shouldnt-_shoot_-the-intruder-then/482060/555 "2009-01-22T00:15:19Z")
> [@Kalhoun](#): > > Well, I was going by the second rule of handling firearms: > > 1. Never assume a gun isn’t loaded (always check it yourself) you always treat a firearm as if its loaded, even when it is not. and > [@](#): > > 1. Never point a gun at someone unless you intend to kill them. I’ve said upthread that the last time i pointed a loaded weapon at a person I intended to shoot them and I was instructed to not fire warning shots. I don’t treat guns like toys, i’m around them a lot. ---
**Author:** ![billfish678](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/7bcc69/32.png) [@billfish678](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/billfish678)\ **Post date:** [January 22, 2009, 12:22am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/ok-if-i-shouldnt-_shoot_-the-intruder-then/482060/556 "2009-01-22T00:22:08Z")
> [@Kalhoun](#): > > 1. Never point a gun at someone unless you intend to kill them. Pointing a gun at someone DOES NOT AUTOMATICALLY REQUIRE you to pull the trigger either. Rule 2 means don’t point a gun at someone unless you have damn good reason to do so. I know its a subtle distinction, but try to concentrate here. ---
**Author:** ![billfish678](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/7bcc69/32.png) [@billfish678](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/billfish678)\ **Post date:** [January 22, 2009, 12:26am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/ok-if-i-shouldnt-_shoot_-the-intruder-then/482060/557 "2009-01-22T00:26:57Z")
> [@Jolly\_Roger](#): > > And I disagree with the post you quoted by Scumpup. In context he didn’t say they deserve to die. I aadmitted its splitting hairs, but Scumpup did not say thieves deserve to die. if they catch a bullet in the act and die, oh well. I’d rather hear that on the news than about the rape/death/injury of an innocent person by a thief. > > . Its not even splitting hairs. Its an important difference. That apparently some people are incapable of understanding. The goal isnt to kill a person for stealing shit. The possible death of the criminal is just a social bonus. And the tivo doesnt even enter the picture. Its all about protecting yourself and your family. ---
**Author:** ![Kalhoun](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/k/3bc359/32.png) [@Kalhoun](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Kalhoun)\ **Post date:** [January 22, 2009, 12:28am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/ok-if-i-shouldnt-_shoot_-the-intruder-then/482060/558 "2009-01-22T00:28:41Z")
> [@Jolly\_Roger](#): > > \*\*Ivan \*\*has already implied it, but you didn’t say it, I stand corrected. So if you agree that the the criminal bears the responsibility than it makes sense he’s responsible for being shot by Mr. Homeowner by not surrendering immediately. > > And I missed the post where **Scumpup** said criminals deserve to die for stealing his stuff. (its a long thread, did he actually say that?) I do recall him saying that he’d shoot a person breaking into his house, but again, the guy wouldn’t get shot if he didn’t break into the house. Because how is Scumpup to know what the guy intends to do once in the house? He doesn’t. If i were him, I’d be less inclinerd to give the breaker-inner the benefit of the doubt. My whole point in this thread is that shooting people isn’t always the right answer, regardless of who’s in the wrong. Clearly the intruder who intentionally comes in to steal cannot be anything _but_ wrong. But this notion of shooting someone when you don’t really know what the situation is, or shooting someone for stealing stuff as opposed to harming people, isn’t a proportionate response to the crime. ---
**Author:** ![Kalhoun](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/k/3bc359/32.png) [@Kalhoun](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Kalhoun)\ **Post date:** [January 22, 2009, 12:33am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/ok-if-i-shouldnt-_shoot_-the-intruder-then/482060/559 "2009-01-22T00:33:06Z")
> [@billfish678](#): > > Pointing a gun at someone DOES NOT AUTOMATICALLY REQUIRE you to pull the trigger either. > > Rule 2 means don’t point a gun at someone unless you have damn good reason to do so. > > I know its a subtle distinction, but try to concentrate here. Save your condescending tone for someone who gives a fuck about your opinion, which on this point, is worthless. ---
**Author:** ![billfish678](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/7bcc69/32.png) [@billfish678](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/billfish678)\ **Post date:** [January 22, 2009, 12:34am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/ok-if-i-shouldnt-_shoot_-the-intruder-then/482060/560 "2009-01-22T00:34:59Z")
> [@Kalhoun](#): > > But this notion of shooting someone when you don’t really know what the situation is, or shooting someone for stealing stuff as opposed to harming people, isn’t a proportionate response to the crime. Jesus H Christ on a shishkabob. Nobody is shooting people FOR STEALING STUFF. YOU think THAT. But you swear thats the case. Okay, guys and gals. WHO HERE IS IN FAVOR OF SHOOTING PEOPLE FOR STEALING STUFF? [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/ok-if-i-shouldnt-_shoot_-the-intruder-then/482060.md?page=27) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/ok-if-i-shouldnt-_shoot_-the-intruder-then/482060.md?page=29)