# Ok, if I shouldn't \_shoot\_ the intruder, then...? **URL:** \ **Category:** Great Debates\ **Created:** [January 19, 2009, 11:15pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/ok-if-i-shouldnt-_shoot_-the-intruder-then/482060 "2009-01-19T23:15:40Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 3
**Author:** ![mswas](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/e99b99/32.png) [@mswas](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/mswas)\ **Post date:** [January 20, 2009, 5:35am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/ok-if-i-shouldnt-_shoot_-the-intruder-then/482060/41 "2009-01-20T05:35:53Z")
> [@spike404](#): > > mswas, > > How many firearm showdowns have you been involved with? > > Zero. I suspect. > > Internet bravery is rampant! What does this have to do with bravery? Where did I say that I’d totally win in a gun fight? I am just stating what SHOULD be obvious to anyone who knows the most rudimentary fundamentals of physics and kinesiology, the guy with his gun drawn and pointed at his target has an advantage over the guy who doesn’t even have a gun on his person. ---
**Author:** ![mswas](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/e99b99/32.png) [@mswas](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/mswas)\ **Post date:** [January 20, 2009, 5:37am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/ok-if-i-shouldnt-_shoot_-the-intruder-then/482060/42 "2009-01-20T05:37:05Z")
> [@Odesio](#): > > You still haven’t answered the question. What does honor have to do with it? A TiVo is just not worth killing over, that’s the long and short of it. Let him get away. ---
**Author:** ![Bites\_When\_Provoked](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/bites_when_provoked/32/18073_2.png) [@Bites\_When\_Provoked](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Bites_When_Provoked)\ **Post date:** [January 20, 2009, 7:18am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/ok-if-i-shouldnt-_shoot_-the-intruder-then/482060/43 "2009-01-20T07:18:22Z")
Okay, first, if you’re that fearful that someone’s going to break into your house, why wouldn’t you have some kind of security system installed? Why would you rely on maybe-possibly hearing something downstairs? This is a huge irritation for me: either you think you need to protect your property, or you don’t. If you do, get a security system. It won’t stop them coming in, but at least you don’t have the (incredibly, IMO, stupid) fallback ‘I think I hear a noise downstairs’ scenario going on; you’ll know if they’re coming in, and odds are, they’ll beat it before you even have to hike your way down the stairs brandishing your gun. Secondly, if a housebreaker saw you standing at the top of the stairs with a gun, do you really think he’s going to come back any time soon? Unless he’s crazy, he’s going to chalk that one up to experience and move on. ---
**Author:** ![Mosier](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/7ea924/32.png) [@Mosier](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Mosier)\ **Post date:** [January 20, 2009, 8:47am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/ok-if-i-shouldnt-_shoot_-the-intruder-then/482060/44 "2009-01-20T08:47:54Z")
Having performed quite a few citizens’ arrests myself, I can say that in Nevada you can use whatever amount of force is necessary to detain someone who you witness committing a crime. You can legally detain someone who has broken into your home, after which you call the police and they tell you what to do next. Casinos can use handcuffs to detain people for the police, for no other reason than violating a trespass warning. It’s how they nail the hookers, without actually witnessing them soliciting prostitution. They warn the person that they are trespassing, after which if that person ever comes back onto the property they are committing a crime for which citizens arrest (which is what the casinos do, because after all their security officers are just regular citizens) is justified. What you are NOT allowed to do, in any circumstance, is attack someone who is posing no threat to you. You can use exactly as much force as is necessary to detain someone or protect yourself, and no more. If you catch a person in your house who is trying to leave, you’re not allowed to use deadly force on them. I am not a lawyer. I am definitely not your lawyer. This is not legal advice. Do not detain or attack anybody based on anything I’ve written here. 🙂 ---
**Author:** ![Odesio](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/odesio/32/20003_2.png) [@Odesio](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Odesio)\ **Post date:** [January 20, 2009, 8:50am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/ok-if-i-shouldnt-_shoot_-the-intruder-then/482060/45 "2009-01-20T08:50:56Z")
> [@mswas](#): > > A TiVo is just not worth killing over, that’s the long and short of it. Let him get away. I certainly agree with that sentiment. I just don’t see where honor comes into play. ---
**Author:** ![Mosier](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/7ea924/32.png) [@Mosier](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Mosier)\ **Post date:** [January 20, 2009, 8:52am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/ok-if-i-shouldnt-_shoot_-the-intruder-then/482060/46 "2009-01-20T08:52:29Z")
> [@Vox\_Imperatoris](#): > > I’m a bit confused by the Alabama law on this subject. On the one hand, [this](http://www.legislature.state.al.us/CodeofAlabama/1975/coatoc.htm) says that deadly physical force may be used to prevent robbery in any degree (among other things), but another section says that only physical force other than deadly force can be used in defense of property. > > Valete, > Vox Imperatoris > > ETA: That link didn’t work right. Here are the two relevant sections: > [Section 13A-3-23](http://www.legislature.state.al.us/CodeofAlabama/1975/13A-3-23.htm) > [Section 13A-3-26](http://www.legislature.state.al.us/CodeofAlabama/1975/13A-3-26.htm) You can’t kill someone for shoplifting a candy bar, but you can kill someone for pointing a gun in a shopkeeper’s face and saying “give me the candy bar or i’ll hurt you”. Only one of those scenarios is robbery. The first scenario would cover the “in defense of property” part. ---
**Author:** ![Lynn\_Bodoni](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/l/e47c2d/32.png) [@Lynn\_Bodoni](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Lynn_Bodoni)\ **Post date:** [January 20, 2009, 12:17pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/ok-if-i-shouldnt-_shoot_-the-intruder-then/482060/47 "2009-01-20T12:17:28Z")
> [@Odesio](#): > > What does honor have to do with it? It’s not a game. Right. If I make a poor decision in a game, I might lose the game. If I make a poor decision in Real Life, I might lose my Real Life. I prefer keeping my Real Life. At least, until they can upload me into a really good computer and I can finally game all I want. ---
**Author:** ![billfish678](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/7bcc69/32.png) [@billfish678](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/billfish678)\ **Post date:** [January 20, 2009, 1:05pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/ok-if-i-shouldnt-_shoot_-the-intruder-then/482060/48 "2009-01-20T13:05:15Z")
> [@mswas](#): > > A TiVo is just not worth killing over, that’s the long and short of it. Let him get away. A TIVO is also not worth getting KILLED over either. So, one stupid guy kills for one. Another stupid guy GETS killed for one. Which guy is more stupid? ---
**Author:** ![LouisB](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/l/dfb087/32.png) [@LouisB](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/LouisB)\ **Post date:** [January 20, 2009, 1:11pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/ok-if-i-shouldnt-_shoot_-the-intruder-then/482060/49 "2009-01-20T13:11:53Z")
Order him to ‘Halt! Turn around or I’ll shoot!’; if he is stupid enough to do it, blow him away. ---
**Author:** ![Kalhoun](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/k/3bc359/32.png) [@Kalhoun](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Kalhoun)\ **Post date:** [January 20, 2009, 1:12pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/ok-if-i-shouldnt-_shoot_-the-intruder-then/482060/50 "2009-01-20T13:12:55Z")
> [@Lumpy](#): > > And **puhleeze** don’t say “it’s just a possession, it isn’t worth someone’s life”. Frankly I think it ought to be worth _their_ life, but for now the law is what it is. Would you feel the same way if it was your wayward kid stealing some piece of crap electronics from someone’s home? ---
**Author:** ![Kobal2](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/kobal2/32/20_2.png) [@Kobal2](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Kobal2)\ **Post date:** [January 20, 2009, 1:13pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/ok-if-i-shouldnt-_shoot_-the-intruder-then/482060/51 "2009-01-20T13:13:14Z")
> [@billfish678](#): > > Well, HOW do you do THAT then? ask nicely? > > Stop. I am placing you under citizens arrest! > > I think I’ll just go, thank you very much. > > No. You cant, your under arrest! > > What are you going to do? Shoot me? > > Well, no, legally I can’t do THAT…but I can use (cue dramatic music here ) “appropriate force” > > thats funny mister…be seeing you! > yep, yet more retarded “help” from the legal system. > As much as some people hate the idea of big brother recording and seeing everything, I almost look forward to it so stupid shit like this will finally be over. Except for the burglar, you’re an unkown quantity. A “stop right there or by God I’ll shoot you in the back”, with maybe a round or two fired in the air to make a point (and get the neighbours to call the cops) is threatening enough - the guy has no idea whether you’re going to follow the law or not. I would stop dead in my tracks, cause I know gun owners can be nuts that way :). Better be in jail than dead over a TiVo, know what I mean ? But then, I’m not a criminal, either. ---
**Author:** ![Scumpup](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/ce73a5/32.png) [@Scumpup](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Scumpup)\ **Post date:** [January 20, 2009, 1:23pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/ok-if-i-shouldnt-_shoot_-the-intruder-then/482060/52 "2009-01-20T13:23:27Z")
> [@Kalhoun](#): > > Would you feel the same way if it was your wayward kid stealing some piece of crap electronics from someone’s home? See, that’s the problem with “wayward kids.” They aren’t clearly marked. You can’t tell them from the “real criminals,” which they often grow into. I have a child of my own who means the whole world to me. At zero-dark-thirty if your misguided yoot breaks into my house, his ass is getting shot; not because I care about consumer goods, but because I have a wife and child whose safety trumps that of a miscreant. Don’t want your kid getting shot? Raise him to know better than to steal. ---
**Author:** ![Jolly\_Roger](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/j/91b2a8/32.png) [@Jolly\_Roger](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Jolly_Roger)\ **Post date:** [January 20, 2009, 1:38pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/ok-if-i-shouldnt-_shoot_-the-intruder-then/482060/53 "2009-01-20T13:38:47Z")
> [@HoboStew](#): > > I don’t know about the law, but if someone breaks into your home you have my blessing to shoot him. While I won’t go so far as to say they deserve to die, they certainly have lost all right to complain if it happens. If the intruder is running away with my stuff in hand he’d better be close to the door, else it’d be \*\*\*“Officer, he was in the hallway near the bedroom. He turned just when I fired! I was a’feared for my life and my family…and in the dark it looked like he had a gun!”.\*\*\*I’ve been robbed before. Some drug addicted asshole stole all of my meager possessions and got a sentence to rehab. I don’t have a lot of sympathy for thieves. And I don’t own a gun ATM. (even if I did, it would be locked in the Arms Room on post, so its not like I’d have it here.) I do have a collection of swords, some are decorative but one or two are actually sharp. I wonder if I’d get in trouble for running a burglar through? Planning on taking archery again as a hobby…does an arrow in the back count? ---
**Author:** ![Jolly\_Roger](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/j/91b2a8/32.png) [@Jolly\_Roger](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Jolly_Roger)\ **Post date:** [January 20, 2009, 1:43pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/ok-if-i-shouldnt-_shoot_-the-intruder-then/482060/54 "2009-01-20T13:43:28Z")
> [@Scumpup](#): > > See, that’s the problem with “wayward kids.” They aren’t clearly marked. You can’t tell them from the “real criminals,” which they often grow into. > I have a child of my own who means the whole world to me. At zero-dark-thirty if your misguided yoot breaks into my house, his ass is getting shot; not because I care about consumer goods, but because I have a wife and child whose safety trumps that of a miscreant. > Don’t want your kid getting shot? Raise him to know better than to steal. Thats common sense, but the parents of the kid would probably be on the news at 6 saying how he was basically a good kid, just misguided. Personally, if you shot him in your house while he was robbing you, I might wonder if you could have just wounded him, but as long as you didn’t double tap him, I wouldn’t wonder very long. ---
**Author:** ![Kalhoun](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/k/3bc359/32.png) [@Kalhoun](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Kalhoun)\ **Post date:** [January 20, 2009, 1:47pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/ok-if-i-shouldnt-_shoot_-the-intruder-then/482060/55 "2009-01-20T13:47:36Z")
> [@Scumpup](#): > > See, that’s the problem with “wayward kids.” They aren’t clearly marked. You can’t tell them from the “real criminals,” which they often grow into. > I have a child of my own who means the whole world to me. At zero-dark-thirty if your misguided yoot breaks into my house, his ass is getting shot; not because I care about consumer goods, but because I have a wife and child whose safety trumps that of a miscreant. > Don’t want your kid getting shot? Raise him to know better than to steal. So your kid grows into a “real criminal” … you still think stealing things is equally weighted with “deserves to be killed?” Really? How many instances of theft constitutes “deserves to die?” Five? Three? First offense? What if the kid is just stealing and isn’t packing? What if his intent was to sneak in quietly and steal your stuff and has no interest in hurting anyone? ---
**Author:** ![Scumpup](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/ce73a5/32.png) [@Scumpup](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Scumpup)\ **Post date:** [January 20, 2009, 1:56pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/ok-if-i-shouldnt-_shoot_-the-intruder-then/482060/56 "2009-01-20T13:56:24Z")
How do you propose I know \*what \* his intent is? Are you telepathic? I am not so lucky. When a shitbag breaks into my house, especially at late at night, I’m in no position to assume anything about him other than he is a criminal in my house. I don’t care whether he stole anything at that point. He is an intruder that I must presume to be dangerous. He’s getting treated as such. ---
**Author:** ![Jolly\_Roger](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/j/91b2a8/32.png) [@Jolly\_Roger](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Jolly_Roger)\ **Post date:** [January 20, 2009, 1:57pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/ok-if-i-shouldnt-_shoot_-the-intruder-then/482060/57 "2009-01-20T13:57:28Z")
> [@Kalhoun](#): > > So your kid grows into a “real criminal” … you still think stealing things is equally weighted with "deserves to be killed? Really? How many instances of theft constitutes “deserves to die?” Five? Three? First offense? What if the kid is just stealing and isn’t packing? What if his intent was to sneak in quietly and steal your stuff and has no interest in hurting anyone? The line between self defense and cold blooded murder is murky and an intruder in your house can stand on both sides of it at once. While I have no real desire to kill or hurt anyone, I can understand what **Scumpup** is saying. Its hypothetical, but say he is awakened by a noise in his house. He has a legally owned pistol. His wife is frightened, his kids are sleeping. He goes downstairs to investigate and sees only a dark figure in the middle of his home, carrying his stuff. How does he know this guy isn’t going to try to overpower him or harm his kids? How can he be sure this person isn’t some crazy Jame Gumb motherfucker? He might say _ **“Stop where you are! Put your hands up!”** _. The intruder does not comply, he makes a dash but is it to rush him or grab a weapon himself? He may not even be alone. He doesn’t and its a split second decision. Shoot or not. Wife, kids, property take precedence. He fires, hits center mass. Calls 911 but the intruder dies before EMT’s arrive. The intruder was a 18 yr old thug, feeding his drug need. Sure **Scumpup** will have to live with the fact that he killed the kid, but he didn’t do anything wrong. The kid should not have been in his house in the first place. ---
**Author:** ![Kalhoun](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/k/3bc359/32.png) [@Kalhoun](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Kalhoun)\ **Post date:** [January 20, 2009, 2:07pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/ok-if-i-shouldnt-_shoot_-the-intruder-then/482060/58 "2009-01-20T14:07:28Z")
> [@Scumpup](#): > > How do you propose I know \*what \* his intent is? Are you telepathic? I am not so lucky. When a shitbag breaks into my house, especially at late at night, I’m in no position to assume anything about him other than he is a criminal in my house. I don’t care whether he stole anything at that point. He is an intruder that I must presume to be dangerous. He’s getting treated as such. Well, you don’t HAVE to presume everyone’s out to harm you; you CHOOSE that. You can always stay in your room with the door locked and call the police. We haven’t stated that the intruder is standing over your bed with a gun pointed at your head, so this option would save you the regret you would undoubtedly feel if you blew away someone who had no intention of harming you. ---
**Author:** ![Broomstick](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/broomstick/32/246_2.png) [@Broomstick](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Broomstick)\ **Post date:** [January 20, 2009, 2:09pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/ok-if-i-shouldnt-_shoot_-the-intruder-then/482060/59 "2009-01-20T14:09:54Z")
> [@Lumpy](#): > > Now YMMV, but here in Minnesota I’m pretty sure that I would NOT have the legal right to gun them down in the back as they’re fleeing. Minnesota is not a “Castle Doctrine” state I just wish to clarify this - I _do_ live in a “castle doctrine” state and we aren’t allowed to shoot a fleeing intruder, either. If you shoot a guy in the back as he’s going out the door you’re going to be hauled in on murder charges. It’s never OK to shoot someone leaving or in the back (barring bizarro extraordinary weird situation). You’re only permitted to use enough force to eliminate the threat - i.e. get him to leave or render him harmless. It just that my state recognizes that sometimes deadly force is the appropriate or at least an acceptable level of force to use. ---
**Author:** ![billfish678](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/7bcc69/32.png) [@billfish678](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/billfish678)\ **Post date:** [January 20, 2009, 2:12pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/ok-if-i-shouldnt-_shoot_-the-intruder-then/482060/60 "2009-01-20T14:12:03Z")
> [@Kobal2](#): > > Except for the burglar, you’re an unkown quantity. A “stop right there or by God I’ll shoot you in the back”, with maybe a round or two fired in the air to make a point (and get the neighbours to call the cops) is threatening enough - the guy has no idea whether you’re going to follow the law or not. I would stop dead in my tracks, cause I know gun owners can be nuts that way :). Better be in jail than dead over a TiVo, know what I mean ? But then, I’m not a criminal, either. Of course you could probably get in big trouble for firing even a warning shot in some legally retarded states. Yeah, one would hope the criminals wouldnt call your bluff, but everything I’ve ever seen on tv:rolleyes: the criminals sure as hell usually don’t have any trouble running from armed pissed off cops, so I imagine angry harry the homeowner might not be able to pull this off regularly. I guess, if you are big ass sumo wrestler, you could get the upper hand and sit on em till the cops arrive 🙂 [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/ok-if-i-shouldnt-_shoot_-the-intruder-then/482060.md?page=2) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/ok-if-i-shouldnt-_shoot_-the-intruder-then/482060.md?page=4)