# Ok, if I shouldn't \_shoot\_ the intruder, then...? **URL:** \ **Category:** Great Debates\ **Created:** [January 19, 2009, 11:15pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/ok-if-i-shouldnt-_shoot_-the-intruder-then/482060 "2009-01-19T23:15:40Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 31
**Author:** ![Scumpup](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/ce73a5/32.png) [@Scumpup](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Scumpup)\ **Post date:** [January 22, 2009, 1:29pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/ok-if-i-shouldnt-_shoot_-the-intruder-then/482060/601 "2009-01-22T13:29:14Z")
Anybody in LE will tell you that any arrest is potentially dangerous; perhaps lethally so. If you really cared as much about reducing bloodshed as you’ve claimed to in this thread, you’d look out the window, watch Thuggie McThuggerson drive away in you car, shrug and say “Well, fuck it. It’s only a car.” You wouldn’t want to endanger either Thuggie or Officer Friendly over a mere hunk of metal. Perhaps, though, you’d consider moving like you advised me to upthread. Sorry, Princess, I’m not buying it. Probably, if you thought about it at all, you’d rationalize endangering Officer Friendly by telling yourself “…but it’s his job!” You probably wouldn’t worry about poor 'lil Thuggie at all. Deep down, I think the real difference between you and me is just that I don’t feel the need to hire a gun. I have my own. Edited to add: you and Ivan posted while I was typing. I will here smugly note that I correctly predicted that you would whine that it is the policeman’s job. ---
**Author:** ![ivan\_astikov](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/i/58f4c7/32.png) [@ivan\_astikov](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/ivan_astikov)\ **Post date:** [January 22, 2009, 1:34pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/ok-if-i-shouldnt-_shoot_-the-intruder-then/482060/602 "2009-01-22T13:34:02Z")
> [@Scumpup](#): > > I think the real difference between you and me is just that I don’t feel the need to hire a gun. I have my own. Yee har! Ride 'em out Pilgrim! > [@Scumpup](#): > > Edited to add: you and Ivan posted while I was typing. I will here smugly note that I correctly predicted that you would whine that it is the policeman’s job. How astute, noticing the plainly obvious. ---
**Author:** ![Scumpup](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/ce73a5/32.png) [@Scumpup](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Scumpup)\ **Post date:** [January 22, 2009, 1:36pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/ok-if-i-shouldnt-_shoot_-the-intruder-then/482060/603 "2009-01-22T13:36:47Z")
> [@Kalhoun](#): > > Police rarely shoot anyone over car theft in my neighborhood. But no, I would not be pleased if a guy was shot by ANYONE for stealing a car. I wouldn’t expect a cop to draw on a car thief. That’s just wrong, in my opinion. It ain’t about what you _expect_. After you make the call, you are no longer in control of anything that happens. It’s your choice to initiate, or not, a chain of events that potentially leads to somebody getting hurt or killed. Maybe more than one person. All over a used car. ---
**Author:** ![billfish678](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/7bcc69/32.png) [@billfish678](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/billfish678)\ **Post date:** [January 22, 2009, 1:37pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/ok-if-i-shouldnt-_shoot_-the-intruder-then/482060/604 "2009-01-22T13:37:45Z")
> [@Sandwich](#): > > For me, the main drawback to shooting intruders in the night is the risk that it is a family member who couldn’t sleep… Well, to be honest, Uncle Bob’s excessive flatulence was getting on my last nerve anyway, so… ---
**Author:** ![Scumpup](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/ce73a5/32.png) [@Scumpup](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Scumpup)\ **Post date:** [January 22, 2009, 1:37pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/ok-if-i-shouldnt-_shoot_-the-intruder-then/482060/605 "2009-01-22T13:37:53Z")
> [@ivan\_astikov](#): > > Yee har! Ride 'em out Pilgrim! > > How astute, noticing the plainly obvious. Do you have anything of interest to say or are you just going to continue banging your tin cup against the bars? ---
**Author:** ![Jolly\_Roger](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/j/91b2a8/32.png) [@Jolly\_Roger](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Jolly_Roger)\ **Post date:** [January 22, 2009, 1:40pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/ok-if-i-shouldnt-_shoot_-the-intruder-then/482060/606 "2009-01-22T13:40:29Z")
> [@ivan\_astikov](#): > > S/he’s doing her/his job, and fully aware of the risks. That should also apply to the fuckhead that breaks into houses. > [@](#): > > So, you’d prefer more people getting involved with violent solutions? I’m sure that would help. Bad Strawman, bad! He didn’t say that, nor did he advocate people walking around armed gunning down criminals. He/the thread is about a person breaking intro your home to do skullduggery. I haven’t seen any reason for a person capable of defending themselves not to do so in that case except “I don’t like violence” and "The poor Thug just needed thrills"etc. Well, I gotta go to work…oddly enough to work on getting a range prepared for firing and training. ---
**Author:** ![billfish678](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/7bcc69/32.png) [@billfish678](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/billfish678)\ **Post date:** [January 22, 2009, 1:40pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/ok-if-i-shouldnt-_shoot_-the-intruder-then/482060/607 "2009-01-22T13:40:33Z")
> [@Kalhoun](#): > > Guns don’t play a part in my defense scenario. Kinda like Lemmings and their lack of parachutes on a day hike 🙂 ---
**Author:** ![ivan\_astikov](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/i/58f4c7/32.png) [@ivan\_astikov](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/ivan_astikov)\ **Post date:** [January 22, 2009, 1:41pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/ok-if-i-shouldnt-_shoot_-the-intruder-then/482060/608 "2009-01-22T13:41:40Z")
> [@Scumpup](#): > > It ain’t about what you _expect_. After you make the call, you are no longer in control of anything that happens. It’s your choice to initiate, or not, a chain of events that potentially leads to somebody getting hurt or killed. Maybe more than one person. All over a used car. Yes, but someone who is trained to deal with the experience is handling it, and you and your loved ones are safe, while the car is in a sort of Shrodinger’s Cat situation between being stolen and still being there when you open your front door. ---
**Author:** ![billfish678](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/7bcc69/32.png) [@billfish678](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/billfish678)\ **Post date:** [January 22, 2009, 1:44pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/ok-if-i-shouldnt-_shoot_-the-intruder-then/482060/609 "2009-01-22T13:44:39Z")
> [@Kalhoun](#): > > . I wouldn’t expect a cop to draw on a car thief. That’s just wrong, in my opinion. Double Sweet Beegezus ! ---
**Author:** ![ivan\_astikov](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/i/58f4c7/32.png) [@ivan\_astikov](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/ivan_astikov)\ **Post date:** [January 22, 2009, 1:45pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/ok-if-i-shouldnt-_shoot_-the-intruder-then/482060/610 "2009-01-22T13:45:04Z")
> [@Scumpup](#): > > Do you have anything of interest to say or are you just going to continue banging your tin cup against the bars? I’ve just managed to go 60 posts in GD without getting told off by a mod, do you think I am going to fall for this lame ploy to drag it down to a personal situation? Cast your bait in another stretch of the river. ---
**Author:** ![Scumpup](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/ce73a5/32.png) [@Scumpup](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Scumpup)\ **Post date:** [January 22, 2009, 1:47pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/ok-if-i-shouldnt-_shoot_-the-intruder-then/482060/611 "2009-01-22T13:47:21Z")
> [@ivan\_astikov](#): > > Yes, but someone who is trained to deal with the experience is handling it, and you and your loved ones are safe, while the car is in a sort of Shrodinger’s Cat situation between being stolen and still being there when you open your front door. Training has fuck-all to do with it. It is still a perfect willingness to put other people in danger after preaching about how wrong it is to harm anybody over a “hunk of metal.” ---
**Author:** ![ivan\_astikov](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/i/58f4c7/32.png) [@ivan\_astikov](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/ivan_astikov)\ **Post date:** [January 22, 2009, 1:52pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/ok-if-i-shouldnt-_shoot_-the-intruder-then/482060/612 "2009-01-22T13:52:14Z")
> [@Scumpup](#): > > Training has fuck-all to do with it. It is still a perfect willingness to put other people in danger after preaching about how wrong it is to harm anybody over a “hunk of metal.” If you are talking about ‘willingness’, who asked the cop to join the forces? Do you want to just disband them and we’ll leave it to you and your ilk? I’m sure you’ll have the problem solved in no time. Stay in touch; let me know how it’s going! ---
**Author:** ![billfish678](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/7bcc69/32.png) [@billfish678](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/billfish678)\ **Post date:** [January 22, 2009, 1:57pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/ok-if-i-shouldnt-_shoot_-the-intruder-then/482060/613 "2009-01-22T13:57:12Z")
I dont have time for details, gotta get busy today. But I will lay out a scenario. We have this all on tape so we know exactly what transpired. Criminal Stealing Car Shooter Bob, pulling gun : Stop, thats my car! Criminal : Funny, I dont care that its your car. I am taking it anyway. Shooter Bob : I am warning you, that IS MY CAR and I need it to make a living. Don’t force me to shoot you. Criminal : I still don’t care. I am taking your car. Shooter Bob : I WILL SHOOT YOU IF YOU GET IN THAT CAR. IF YOU WALK AWAY SLOWLY I WILL NOT SHOOT YOU. Criminal gets in car. Gets well ventilated . Poor drafty prison kitten. Trial Ensues. I’d have NO trouble finding Shooter Bob not guilty. Is it an optimum solution in IMO? No. Is it the safest? IMO probably not. Is is the best we could hope for in a very just/compassionate society? IMO No. Would I punish Shooter Bob or think highly less of him for taking that route? Hell no. ---
**Author:** ![Scumpup](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/ce73a5/32.png) [@Scumpup](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Scumpup)\ **Post date:** [January 22, 2009, 1:59pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/ok-if-i-shouldnt-_shoot_-the-intruder-then/482060/614 "2009-01-22T13:59:19Z")
> [@ivan\_astikov](#): > > If you are talking about ‘willingness’, who asked the cop to join the forces? Do you want to just disband them and we’ll leave it to you and your ilk? I’m sure you’ll have the problem solved in no time. Stay in touch; let me know how it’s going! Nope. In fact I was LE, a part-time deputy sheriff for 12 years, as I mentioned upthread. Maybe that’s one of the reasons I’m growing so fond of you. LE has a job to do and most of them do it well. I have no qualms about calling them because I’m not asking them to do anything that I’m unwilling to do myself. I’m not the one who spent pages and pages sneering at people for placing a higher value on material goods than on the sanctity of another persons life and safety. I don’t have a problem with criminals getting shot if they refuse to surrender to an armed citizen, whether that citizen wears a badge or not. Kalhoun, OTOH, has sneered at gun owners for pages now but doesn’t seem to have a problem with somebody else being endangered for her consumer goods or with somebody else getting shot over her consumer goods. Sweet deal. She gets to feel morally superior while somebody else takes all the risks. ---
**Author:** ![ivan\_astikov](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/i/58f4c7/32.png) [@ivan\_astikov](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/ivan_astikov)\ **Post date:** [January 22, 2009, 2:02pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/ok-if-i-shouldnt-_shoot_-the-intruder-then/482060/615 "2009-01-22T14:02:02Z")
**bill** , the only person who is not going to walk away in that scenario, is someone high on PCP or something…and if you are crazy enough to be on that stuff you need shooting probably. ---
**Author:** ![Kalhoun](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/k/3bc359/32.png) [@Kalhoun](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Kalhoun)\ **Post date:** [January 22, 2009, 2:08pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/ok-if-i-shouldnt-_shoot_-the-intruder-then/482060/616 "2009-01-22T14:08:16Z")
> [@Scumpup](#): > > Nope. In fact I was LE, a part-time deputy sheriff for 12 years, as I mentioned upthread. Maybe that’s one of the reasons I’m growing so fond of you. > LE has a job to do and most of them do it well. I have no qualms about calling them because I’m not asking them to do anything that I’m unwilling to do myself. > I’m not the one who spent pages and pages sneering at people for placing a higher value on material goods than on the sanctity of another persons life and safety. I don’t have a problem with criminals getting shot if they refuse to surrender to an armed citizen, whether that citizen wears a badge or not. > Kalhoun, OTOH, has sneered at gun owners for pages now but doesn’t seem to have a problem with somebody else being endangered for her consumer goods or with somebody else getting shot over her consumer goods. Sweet deal. She gets to feel morally superior while somebody else takes all the risks. Now who’s ignoring the social contract? ---
**Author:** ![Scumpup](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/ce73a5/32.png) [@Scumpup](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Scumpup)\ **Post date:** [January 22, 2009, 2:10pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/ok-if-i-shouldnt-_shoot_-the-intruder-then/482060/617 "2009-01-22T14:10:22Z")
> [@Kalhoun](#): > > Now who’s ignoring the social contract? Explain. ---
**Author:** ![ivan\_astikov](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/i/58f4c7/32.png) [@ivan\_astikov](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/ivan_astikov)\ **Post date:** [January 22, 2009, 2:13pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/ok-if-i-shouldnt-_shoot_-the-intruder-then/482060/618 "2009-01-22T14:13:58Z")
> [@Scumpup](#): > > Nope. In fact I was LE, a part-time deputy sheriff for 12 years, as I mentioned upthread. Maybe that’s one of the reasons I’m growing so fond of you. Awww…that’s sweet! Oh hang on, you didn’t really mean it, did you? > [@Scumpup](#): > > LE has a job to do and most of them do it well. I have no qualms about calling them because I’m not asking them to do anything that I’m unwilling to do myself. > I’m not the one who spent pages and pages sneering at people for placing a higher value on material goods than on the sanctity of another persons life and safety. I don’t have a problem with criminals getting shot if they refuse to surrender to an armed citizen, whether that citizen wears a badge or not. > Kalhoun, OTOH, has sneered at gun owners for pages now but doesn’t seem to have a problem with somebody else being endangered for her consumer goods or with somebody else getting shot over her consumer goods. Sweet deal. She gets to feel morally superior while somebody else takes all the risks. I don’t know if I am meant to be one of the sneering ones, but if so, you have me wrong. My agenda is more about concern for the safety of the homeowner than the criminal. And in my experience that can best be accomplished by prevention. If you had a jewellers shop, it would be bugged and shuttered to the max; are your home contents less valuable? It would be interesting to know how many of those half a million burglaries in 2005 occurred to homes without adequate protection. ---
**Author:** ![billfish678](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/7bcc69/32.png) [@billfish678](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/billfish678)\ **Post date:** [January 22, 2009, 2:14pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/ok-if-i-shouldnt-_shoot_-the-intruder-then/482060/619 "2009-01-22T14:14:09Z")
> [@ivan\_astikov](#): > > **bill** , the only person who is not going to walk away in that scenario, is someone high on PCP or something…and if you are crazy enough to be on that stuff you need shooting probably. Well, I am not going to SWEAR to it, nor do I have a cite handy. But I am pretty darn sure something like that happened in Alabama late 80s, early 90’s. No video I think either. Except it was over a car battery in a car of all things. The guy had battery after battery stolen. Which brings up an aside. I think once a person has been burgled so much its like its own bizzare form of personal harassment, the authorities ought to be able to give out special signs the owner can place all over his property that say : IF ANYBODY IS SHOOT AND KILLED HERE, the police won’t even come to investigate. Or sumptin like that. It went to court. Guy not guilty. Prison Kitten Family : What a horrible decision. I can’t believe anybody would kill somebody over a car battery. Battery Bobs reply :I can’t believe somebody would be willing to be shot and killed OVER a car battery. ---
**Author:** ![billfish678](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/7bcc69/32.png) [@billfish678](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/billfish678)\ **Post date:** [January 22, 2009, 2:20pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/ok-if-i-shouldnt-_shoot_-the-intruder-then/482060/620 "2009-01-22T14:20:51Z")
Forgot to add : For the scenario/trial I describe above, post 613, note that the criminal is still NOT getting shot for stealing, he is getting shot to PREVENT the theft of the car. I know its a subtle difference, but it is an important one. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/ok-if-i-shouldnt-_shoot_-the-intruder-then/482060.md?page=30) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/ok-if-i-shouldnt-_shoot_-the-intruder-then/482060.md?page=32)