# Ok, if I shouldn't \_shoot\_ the intruder, then...? **URL:** \ **Category:** Great Debates\ **Created:** [January 19, 2009, 11:15pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/ok-if-i-shouldnt-_shoot_-the-intruder-then/482060 "2009-01-19T23:15:40Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 33
**Author:** ![Mighty\_Mouse](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/mighty_mouse/32/7776_2.png) [@Mighty\_Mouse](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Mighty_Mouse)\ **Post date:** [January 22, 2009, 5:15pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/ok-if-i-shouldnt-_shoot_-the-intruder-then/482060/641 "2009-01-22T17:15:16Z")
[quote=“ivan\_astikov, post:599, topic:482060”] S/he’s doing her/his job, and fully aware of the risks. QUOTE] Somehow this doesn’t apply to the perp? How do you arrive at this double standard. Break into houses or steal cars? It’s only material possessions, can’t shoot me! Nyah, nyah, nyah, nyah! Trying to arrest a suspect? You are fair game. You know the risks. Your criminal bias is showing. ---
**Author:** ![Kalhoun](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/k/3bc359/32.png) [@Kalhoun](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Kalhoun)\ **Post date:** [January 22, 2009, 5:16pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/ok-if-i-shouldnt-_shoot_-the-intruder-then/482060/642 "2009-01-22T17:16:38Z")
> [@Huerta88](#): > > I can’t see this being much of a likely IRL response to my threat to kill him, and his continued presence in my home, having acted most irrationally in response to said death threat, could rise to the level of sufficient fear that he’s a wack job that I might have to use force. > > I’d probably pistol-whip him first. People who are fucked up on junk or what have you may not even hear you. They may not understand what you’re saying. ---
**Author:** ![Huerta88](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/h/82dd89/32.png) [@Huerta88](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Huerta88)\ **Post date:** [January 22, 2009, 5:19pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/ok-if-i-shouldnt-_shoot_-the-intruder-then/482060/643 "2009-01-22T17:19:07Z")
> [@Todderbob](#): > > Ohh, bad idea. > Get in close enough for him to control the hand with the pistol in it? I was joking. ---
**Author:** ![Huerta88](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/h/82dd89/32.png) [@Huerta88](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Huerta88)\ **Post date:** [January 22, 2009, 5:21pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/ok-if-i-shouldnt-_shoot_-the-intruder-then/482060/644 "2009-01-22T17:21:16Z")
> [@Kalhoun](#): > > People who are fucked up on junk or what have you may not even hear you. They may not understand what you’re saying. Damn. The needle on my Worry Meter just swung back to the right. They’re that messed up? Is that the same degree of messed up that leads them to think I’m a demon they need to kill as their next task? Am I once again to resolve the ambiguity of “messed up enough that he can’t understand me, but probably not so messed up that he would ever try to hurt me” in HIS favor? ---
**Author:** ![VinylTurnip](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/v/b2d939/32.png) [@VinylTurnip](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/VinylTurnip)\ **Post date:** [January 22, 2009, 5:24pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/ok-if-i-shouldnt-_shoot_-the-intruder-then/482060/645 "2009-01-22T17:24:31Z")
> [@Kalhoun](#): > > People who are fucked up on junk or what have you may not even hear you. They may not understand what you’re saying. Probably won’t feel the blows of the pistol butt raining down on their softened skulls either, so basically, everybody wins. ---
**Author:** ![Kalhoun](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/k/3bc359/32.png) [@Kalhoun](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Kalhoun)\ **Post date:** [January 22, 2009, 5:24pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/ok-if-i-shouldnt-_shoot_-the-intruder-then/482060/646 "2009-01-22T17:24:34Z")
> [@Huerta88](#): > > Damn. The needle on my Worry Meter just swung back to the right. They’re that messed up? Is that the same degree of messed up that leads them to think I’m a demon they need to kill as their next task? Am I once again to resolve the ambiguity of “messed up enough that he can’t understand me, but probably not so messed up that he would ever try to hurt me” in HIS favor? If he was going to hurt you, do you really think he’d stop for the VCR first? ---
**Author:** ![Huerta88](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/h/82dd89/32.png) [@Huerta88](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Huerta88)\ **Post date:** [January 22, 2009, 5:28pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/ok-if-i-shouldnt-_shoot_-the-intruder-then/482060/647 "2009-01-22T17:28:18Z")
> [@Kalhoun](#): > > If he was going to hurt you, do you really think he’d stop for the VCR first? You just got through convincing me that he is beyond ordinary reason. Ordinary reasonable people can hear or understand a command that puts their life on the line. You dramatically illustrated to me why he might not be able to. Therefore, I make no assumptions that his other actions will be reasonable. ---
**Author:** ![Todderbob](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/e47774/32.png) [@Todderbob](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Todderbob)\ **Post date:** [January 22, 2009, 5:29pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/ok-if-i-shouldnt-_shoot_-the-intruder-then/482060/648 "2009-01-22T17:29:23Z")
> [@Huerta88](#): > > I was joking. I TOTALLY knew that… really… :smack: ---
**Author:** ![billfish678](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/7bcc69/32.png) [@billfish678](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/billfish678)\ **Post date:** [January 22, 2009, 5:32pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/ok-if-i-shouldnt-_shoot_-the-intruder-then/482060/649 "2009-01-22T17:32:27Z")
> [@Kalhoun](#): > > People who are fucked up on junk or what have you may not even hear you. They may not understand what you’re saying. I think some posting here may have that same problem 🙂 ---
**Author:** ![Jolly\_Roger](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/j/91b2a8/32.png) [@Jolly\_Roger](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Jolly_Roger)\ **Post date:** [January 22, 2009, 5:34pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/ok-if-i-shouldnt-_shoot_-the-intruder-then/482060/650 "2009-01-22T17:34:44Z")
Well, its been said YOU DON’T KNOW what this guy might do. The VCR might have been an afterthought. Instead of thinking “is the VCR worth me shooting the guy” the criminal sgould be thinking “Is the VCR worth possibly being injured or killed”. I’d assume a person stealing a VCR which are relatively cheap is depserate enough to try anything. So if an order to “Stop or I’ll Shoot” doesn’t jar their common sense, well…you know, the fucker shouldn’t have been bresaking into houses. As for if he’s high…heh…thats not a point in their favor. If anything it makles them more dangerous and unpredictable and you know, if Mr. Homeowner didn’t sell him the drugs, it ain’t Mr. Homeowner’s problem if he’s a druggie. ---
**Author:** ![Flyhalf](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/f/ea5d25/32.png) [@Flyhalf](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Flyhalf)\ **Post date:** [January 22, 2009, 6:08pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/ok-if-i-shouldnt-_shoot_-the-intruder-then/482060/651 "2009-01-22T18:08:26Z")
> [@Kalhoun](#): > > You know, speaking of comprehension, feel free to point out where I ever said I can read an intruder’s intention. Do you not realize what you’ve just said? Goddamn, the stupid in this thread is just MASSIVE! ---
**Author:** ![Sandwich](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/22d042/32.png) [@Sandwich](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Sandwich)\ **Post date:** [January 22, 2009, 6:21pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/ok-if-i-shouldnt-_shoot_-the-intruder-then/482060/652 "2009-01-22T18:21:17Z")
> [@ivan\_astikov](#): > > I’d guarantee we wouldn’t have the problems we have now. Can you think of any reason why a guarantee might not be considered valuable when offered by a career criminal who thinks the victims of crime are to blame for crime? Who finds it inconvenient and reprehensible that an amateur / householder would try to prevent a criminal perpetrating a crime against him, rather than leave it to the professionals? Only wondering. I suspect you are mistaken about the impact your posts and opinions have on readers. ---
**Author:** ![Kalhoun](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/k/3bc359/32.png) [@Kalhoun](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Kalhoun)\ **Post date:** [January 22, 2009, 6:26pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/ok-if-i-shouldnt-_shoot_-the-intruder-then/482060/653 "2009-01-22T18:26:12Z")
> [@Flyhalf](#): > > Do you not realize what you’ve just said? Goddamn, the stupid in this thread is just MASSIVE! And yet you can’t provide an example! Stupid doesn’t even begin to cover it. ---
**Author:** ![Flyhalf](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/f/ea5d25/32.png) [@Flyhalf](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Flyhalf)\ **Post date:** [January 22, 2009, 6:30pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/ok-if-i-shouldnt-_shoot_-the-intruder-then/482060/654 "2009-01-22T18:30:34Z")
> [@Kalhoun](#): > > And yet you can’t provide an example! Stupid doesn’t even begin to cover it. You really are a fucking moron aren’t you? You are claiming to not be able to read the intruders intentions. AND THAT’S THE WHOLE FUCKING POINT! Jackass. ---
**Author:** ![E-Sabbath](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/e19adc/32.png) [@E-Sabbath](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/E-Sabbath)\ **Post date:** [January 22, 2009, 6:40pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/ok-if-i-shouldnt-_shoot_-the-intruder-then/482060/655 "2009-01-22T18:40:41Z")
> [@Fear\_Itself](#): > > I hope you are never in a position to find out. Cute. I also hope I’m never in a position to steal someone’s car. But that’s not the question. I’m asking why it’s morally wrong, I’m wanting a good argument here. > [@Kalhoun](#): > > No, it’s not ok for me. I wouldn’t even consider killing someone who’s stealing my car. There’s no threat to my personal safety. I’d be on the phone with the police. Yes, but why is it morally wrong to do so? That’s the question I’m asking. I already admit that I’m unlikely to ever do it, and if I ever was placed in a situation where I happened to have a gun, ammo, and someone stealing my car, I probably would not be able to shoot them due to a strong unwillingness to actually inflict permanent harm on anyone. That one deer I shot was enough. (I am of the opinion that if I eat meat, I am on the same moral level as the butcher and slaughterhouse. I felt it was important to kill, clean, butcher, and eat an animal to come to real terms with that fact. I did it. I don’t want to ever do it again.) > [@ivan\_astikov](#): > > Truthfully, is your life totally dependent on having your car and computer available at all moments? They are not quite a family member, are they? Ivan, read my words. Livelihood. My livelihood is dependent on my car. We havn’t gotten to the computer yet. > [@ivan\_astikov](#): > > Again, because it is not a matter of life and death. If the thief also has a gun drawn and you can get the drop on him, fair play to you. But if a person has his back to you while attempting to start your car, shooting him is totally unneccessary. If he has entered your home and has your PC in his arms ready to carry out the door, you SHOULD NOT shoot him. If he then drops the PC and goes to pull out a gun or other weapon, blast away. Hell. Fair play, Ivan? Why do I want to engage in fair play with someone who’s already broken the rules of society? I’m not Ahnuld. I’m not Hulk Hogan. I’m not even the Fabulous Moolah. I want every unfair advantage I can get. If it comes to a fair fight, I will _lose_ and the person will _hurt me_ and _take my stuff_ that I have spent a fair amount of my life _working for_. Ten minutes of effort for him, versus five years for me. > [@ivan\_astikov](#): > > As I have said repeatedly( I’m sure it’s getting boring now!), the point of having good security is to make the potential burglar think, ‘This is too much like hard work, I’ll try next door’, and if everyone on the street has the same set up, they’ll move to another street, then another neighbourhood, until they finally think, ‘Hmmm…I wonder what the money is like in shoplifting?’ That’s not stopping a burglar. That’s just sending him somewhere else. I don’t call that being a good neighbor at all. > [@Scumpup](#): > > The bit about the custom made Barrett was humorous exaggeration. A Barrett is nearly six feet long and weighs close to 30 pounds. I do have a stainless steel bathroom gun but it is a plain vanilla S&W model 66 .357. I, ah, know. I was calling you on it gently. There is an AR-15 mod, and I was pointing out that a shotshell load is probably better for soap in your eyes. I think there’s like three-four .38 slugs in a .410 00 load, but I forget exactly. > [@Scumpup](#): > > It ain’t about what you _expect_. After you make the call, you are no longer in control of anything that happens. It’s your choice to initiate, or not, a chain of events that potentially leads to somebody getting hurt or killed. Maybe more than one person. All over a used car. Hey, my car isn’t used! That’s why I put the five year number in. 60 month loan. > [@billfish678](#): > > Criminal gets in car. Gets well ventilated . Poor drafty prison kitten. > > Trial Ensues. I’d have NO trouble finding Shooter Bob not guilty. Note that I didn’t say it was legal to shoot someone stealing my car. I’m asking about the morality of it. Why is it immoral to do so? > [@Shodan](#): > > Considering up thread you said that you did it for the thrills, no, I didn’t notice that. Good point, Shodan. Note: Holy heck, Firefox just nuked itself when I tried to post, then when I restarted? All this came back. Way to go, Firefox 3.1! ---
**Author:** ![Kalhoun](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/k/3bc359/32.png) [@Kalhoun](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Kalhoun)\ **Post date:** [January 22, 2009, 7:24pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/ok-if-i-shouldnt-_shoot_-the-intruder-then/482060/656 "2009-01-22T19:24:54Z")
> [@E-Sabbath](#): > > Yes, but why is it morally wrong to do so? That’s the question I’m asking. I already admit that I’m unlikely to ever do it, and if I ever was placed in a situation where I happened to have a gun, ammo, and someone stealing my car, I probably would not be able to shoot them due to a strong unwillingness to actually inflict permanent harm on anyone. That one deer I shot was enough. (I am of the opinion that if I eat meat, I am on the same moral level as the butcher and slaughterhouse. I felt it was important to kill, clean, butcher, and eat an animal to come to real terms with that fact. I did it. I don’t want to ever do it again.) For me, it’s both an unwillingness to do permanent harm to a person as well as the obvious imbalance between the crime and the punishment. I’m anti-death penalty for \*any \*crime, and as I said earlier, the whole gun culture in this country, in my opinion, is symptomatic of a decline in our humanity. I don’t want to be part of that. It doesn’t matter that the burglar is completely in the wrong. I feel that shooting him is more wrong. While I understand the frustration people feel when their stuff is stolen (having been burgled twice and robbed by a knife-wielding dude myself), the assumption that thieves are _likely_ to harm their victims is wrong. Do they sometimes? Certainly. But the vast majority do not. I won’t assume anything about the guy either way. If I’m attacked, I’ll fight back. If I’m not, I’m willing to hide, lock myself in a room, call the police, high-tail it out the window, or whatever I can do to avoid adding fuel to an already bad situation. ---
**Author:** ![Huerta88](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/h/82dd89/32.png) [@Huerta88](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Huerta88)\ **Post date:** [January 22, 2009, 7:32pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/ok-if-i-shouldnt-_shoot_-the-intruder-then/482060/657 "2009-01-22T19:32:20Z")
> [@Kalhoun](#): > > the whole gun culture in this country, in my opinion, is symptomatic of a decline in our humanity. Has humanity been declining steadily, exponentially, or what over the last 220 years in which gun ownership has been lawful, prevalent, and fairly successful? How high was it when the Second Amendment was drafted? Was it higher, or lower, than when the country was settled by a bunch of guys with guns? Or when those guys with guns seized their independence from the Brits? Just looking to quantify the decline. ---
**Author:** ![billfish678](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/7bcc69/32.png) [@billfish678](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/billfish678)\ **Post date:** [January 22, 2009, 7:38pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/ok-if-i-shouldnt-_shoot_-the-intruder-then/482060/658 "2009-01-22T19:38:48Z")
> [@Kalhoun](#): > > While I understand the frustration people feel when their stuff is stolen (having been burgled twice and robbed by a knife-wielding dude myself), the assumption that thieves are _likely_ to harm their victims is wrong. Do they sometimes? Certainly. But the vast majority do not. I won’t assume anything about the guy either way. If I’m attacked, I’ll fight back. If I’m not, I’m willing to hide, lock myself in a room, call the police, high-tail it out the window, or whatever I can do to avoid adding fuel to an already bad situation. Great for YOU. Dont hold your Ivory tower standards to OTHER people who fear for their safety, do not have Ninja mind reading abilities, and are just trying to get along in life. And when you sell everything you own to feed all the starving in Africa children in Africa get back to us…mmmkay? ---
**Author:** ![Cuckoorex](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/ad7895/32.png) [@Cuckoorex](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Cuckoorex)\ **Post date:** [January 22, 2009, 7:50pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/ok-if-i-shouldnt-_shoot_-the-intruder-then/482060/659 "2009-01-22T19:50:26Z")
> [@Kalhoun](#): > > And yet you can’t provide an example! Stupid doesn’t even begin to cover it. Well, let’s see, there are the numerous times that you’ve written something along the lines of “A burglar who has no intention of harming you,” for one, and then the strong insinuation that you keep making that gun owners are eager to have someone try to steal something so they can go all Eastwood on them KILL KILL KILL. I respectfully decline to comb the entire thread to provide direct quotes, but I think that’s a fair summary. ---
**Author:** ![Kalhoun](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/k/3bc359/32.png) [@Kalhoun](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Kalhoun)\ **Post date:** [January 22, 2009, 7:54pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/ok-if-i-shouldnt-_shoot_-the-intruder-then/482060/660 "2009-01-22T19:54:11Z")
> [@billfish678](#): > > Great for YOU. > > Dont hold your Ivory tower standards to OTHER people who fear for their safety, do not have Ninja mind reading abilities, and are just trying to get along in life. > > And when you sell everything you own to feed all the starving in Africa children in Africa get back to us…mmmkay? Who said I was trying to hold others to my standard? Someone asked an opinion and I gave one. You know…you remind me of that guy in high school whose mother told him he was funny and clever and he actually believed it.:rolleyes: Don’t quit your day job, ok? I can see you spend about as much time on your lame material as you do on your compassion lessons. I’m glad you’re in the minority. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/ok-if-i-shouldnt-_shoot_-the-intruder-then/482060.md?page=32) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/ok-if-i-shouldnt-_shoot_-the-intruder-then/482060.md?page=34)