# Ok, if I shouldn't \_shoot\_ the intruder, then...? **URL:** \ **Category:** Great Debates\ **Created:** [January 19, 2009, 11:15pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/ok-if-i-shouldnt-_shoot_-the-intruder-then/482060 "2009-01-19T23:15:40Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 36
**Author:** ![Todderbob](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/e47774/32.png) [@Todderbob](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Todderbob)\ **Post date:** [January 22, 2009, 10:09pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/ok-if-i-shouldnt-_shoot_-the-intruder-then/482060/701 "2009-01-22T22:09:19Z")
> [@ivan\_astikov](#): > > Doesn’t sound like a very good security company then. Or did you have little stickers in your window? You’d be better off with one of [these](http://www.crimereduction.homeoffice.gov.uk/neighbourhoodwatch/quiz/img/burglaralarm.jpg). Don’t believe that crap that burglars target homes with alarms because they must have something to protect. I don’t **want** one of those. I don’t want, or need, some ugly sign or box outside of my house. I wont make accommodations for criminals. I have the defense of my home stitched up rather nicely. I have walls. Those walls have windows for viewing and doors for legal entry. All doors have locks on them. Honestly, I wouldn’t even have payed to put them on my doors, if not for the fact that they came with the house. I don’t need a deadbolt, a simple turn-key lock works just fine for me. ---
**Author:** ![Todderbob](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/e47774/32.png) [@Todderbob](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Todderbob)\ **Post date:** [January 22, 2009, 10:10pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/ok-if-i-shouldnt-_shoot_-the-intruder-then/482060/702 "2009-01-22T22:10:28Z")
> [@ivan\_astikov](#): > > No, you shouldn’t have to, but this is the real world we are living in and not the fantasy land some are imagining where lambs will frolic merrily with lions, and the like. You’re right. And if you break into my house, since this is the real world, I’m going to shoot you if you appear to be a threat in the least. Because you might be a lion. You’ve already proven you aren’t a lamb. ---
**Author:** ![Cuckoorex](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/ad7895/32.png) [@Cuckoorex](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Cuckoorex)\ **Post date:** [January 22, 2009, 10:11pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/ok-if-i-shouldnt-_shoot_-the-intruder-then/482060/703 "2009-01-22T22:11:45Z")
> [@ivan\_astikov](#): > > No, you shouldn’t have to, but this is the real world we are living in and not the fantasy land some are imagining where lambs will frolic merrily with lions, and the like. Neither is it the fantasy world where homeowners are to blame for home intrusion because they didn’t invest in the best possible locks and alarm systems. ---
**Author:** ![BrandonR](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/779978/32.png) [@BrandonR](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/BrandonR)\ **Post date:** [January 22, 2009, 10:12pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/ok-if-i-shouldnt-_shoot_-the-intruder-then/482060/704 "2009-01-22T22:12:21Z")
> [@ivan\_astikov](#): > > Doesn’t sound like a very good security company then. Or did you have little stickers in your window? You’d be better off with one of [these](http://www.crimereduction.homeoffice.gov.uk/neighbourhoodwatch/quiz/img/burglaralarm.jpg). Don’t believe that crap that burglars target homes with alarms because they must have something to protect. Oh please. So many homes just have the stickers and signs (and no alarm) nowadays that it’s hardly a deterrence to a willing criminal. They know a lot of homes are bluffing. By your logic, no car with a car alarm should ever get stolen, but they still do. And what good are alarm systems in situations where urgency is of the utmost importance? When seconds matter, the police are only minutes away… ---
**Author:** ![steronz](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/steronz/32/11765_2.png) [@steronz](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/steronz)\ **Post date:** [January 22, 2009, 10:16pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/ok-if-i-shouldnt-_shoot_-the-intruder-then/482060/705 "2009-01-22T22:16:10Z")
> [@Todderbob](#): > > And if you break into my house, since this is the real world, I’m going to shoot you if you appear to be a threat in the least. Because you might be a lion. You’ve already proven you aren’t a lamb. But a lion without a $300 vest, right? ---
**Author:** ![Scumpup](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/ce73a5/32.png) [@Scumpup](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Scumpup)\ **Post date:** [January 22, 2009, 10:18pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/ok-if-i-shouldnt-_shoot_-the-intruder-then/482060/706 "2009-01-22T22:18:17Z")
Here’s a question for our resident somewhat successful criminal: whose house would you feel safer burglarizing, Ivan, Kalhoun’s or mine? ---
**Author:** ![Huerta88](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/h/82dd89/32.png) [@Huerta88](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Huerta88)\ **Post date:** [January 22, 2009, 10:23pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/ok-if-i-shouldnt-_shoot_-the-intruder-then/482060/707 "2009-01-22T22:23:16Z")
> [@steronz](#): > > **Huerta** : Fair enough. I also never said that you would definitely do it, just that you seem awfully eager. Although I will say that over 14 pages, your stance seems to have changed from invaders are an unknown threat that need to be neutralized, to invaders are an unknown threat that need to be neutralized if they don’t comply with my orders, to invaders are an unknown threat that need to be neutralized if they don’t comply with my orders, but even if they don’t listen to me I won’t shoot if they’re heading for an exit. So you’re getting more reasonable as time goes on. My position hasn’t really changed that much if at all. I’ve just unpacked my shorthand version and articulated some assumptions. Like for instance I’ve said that if retreat to a definitely-safe redouubt were possible, I would not take that off the table. I’d be more likely to consider that if I could get myself in there and lock it up. Thing is, my current place isn’t set up like that – if he gets in, he’s going to have access such that he could harm me, with nothing but an unlockable interior door between us. And, I no longer live alone, so it’s not just secreting myself I need to worry about. Second, if he complies with my directive in a way that definitely assures me he won’t and can’t be able to harm me, yes, I won’t shoot him. IRL, I am pessimistic (note, pessimistic, not hopeful) that he would (being a dumbass criminal) do the right thing, in the right way, so as to satisfy a super-twitchy **Huerta88**. I think there’s a good chance he’d instead do something really dumb. I don’t want him to. But he might. And at that point, he ain’t getting the benefit of the doubt. When you folks use words like “eager,” it’s just stereotyping. I have **no** desire to kill anyone as I sit here today. If I had to, I would, but it doesn’t appeal to me as bloodsport or social crusading. The **only** thing I am “eager” to do is avoid ever having the violation, risk, and fear that comes of having a dirtbag in my house (by definition, anyone who is so far depraved as to disrespect the sanctity of the place where I and my family live and move and have our being is a dirtbag). If I die without ever having lifted my gun in anger because no one’s ever broken into my house, I’m dying happy. ---
**Author:** ![ivan\_astikov](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/i/58f4c7/32.png) [@ivan\_astikov](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/ivan_astikov)\ **Post date:** [January 22, 2009, 10:29pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/ok-if-i-shouldnt-_shoot_-the-intruder-then/482060/708 "2009-01-22T22:29:05Z")
> [@Scumpup](#): > > Here’s a question for our resident somewhat successful criminal: whose house would you feel safer burglarizing, Ivan, Kalhoun’s or mine? From the outside of a house you can only tell so much about the occupants. And the average burglar doesn’t think about getting caught until it happens, but if I had foreknowledge, I’d obviously go for Kalhoun’s. As it is unlikely a petty burglar would know until it came on top, I see no point to the question. ---
**Author:** ![BrandonR](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/779978/32.png) [@BrandonR](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/BrandonR)\ **Post date:** [January 22, 2009, 10:30pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/ok-if-i-shouldnt-_shoot_-the-intruder-then/482060/709 "2009-01-22T22:30:59Z")
> [@ivan\_astikov](#): > > From the outside of a house you can only tell so much about the occupants. And the average burglar doesn’t think about getting caught until it happens, but if I had foreknowledge, I’d obviously go for Kalhoun’s. As it is unlikely a petty burglar would know until it came on top, I see no point to the question. So clearly the real answer is not signs promoting burglar alarms, but this instead: [http://www.safetycentral.com/protbysmitwe.html](http://www.safetycentral.com/protbysmitwe.html)😛 ---
**Author:** ![ivan\_astikov](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/i/58f4c7/32.png) [@ivan\_astikov](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/ivan_astikov)\ **Post date:** [January 22, 2009, 10:32pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/ok-if-i-shouldnt-_shoot_-the-intruder-then/482060/710 "2009-01-22T22:32:38Z")
> [@BrandonR](#): > > So clearly the real answer is not signs promoting burglar alarms, but this instead: [http://www.safetycentral.com/protbysmitwe.html](http://www.safetycentral.com/protbysmitwe.html)😛 We have a thread winner! 🙂 ---
**Author:** ![Scumpup](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/ce73a5/32.png) [@Scumpup](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Scumpup)\ **Post date:** [January 22, 2009, 10:41pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/ok-if-i-shouldnt-_shoot_-the-intruder-then/482060/711 "2009-01-22T22:41:31Z")
Can you get one of those with a picture of a clown and “Bobo” instead of “Smith & Wesson?” I’d cross the street just to avoid walking near a house with signs like that. ---
**Author:** ![Cuckoorex](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/ad7895/32.png) [@Cuckoorex](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Cuckoorex)\ **Post date:** [January 22, 2009, 10:45pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/ok-if-i-shouldnt-_shoot_-the-intruder-then/482060/712 "2009-01-22T22:45:39Z")
My grandfather used to collect guns. I don’t know what his opinion was on using one in home defense, but he had a sign on the door that said, “Never mind the dog, beware of owner” with an image of a gun. The street he lived on had many break-ins over the years, but no one ever tried to break into Grandpa’s house. ---
**Author:** ![Jolly\_Roger](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/j/91b2a8/32.png) [@Jolly\_Roger](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Jolly_Roger)\ **Post date:** [January 22, 2009, 10:46pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/ok-if-i-shouldnt-_shoot_-the-intruder-then/482060/713 "2009-01-22T22:46:33Z")
> [@ivan\_astikov](#): > > No, you shouldn’t have to, but this is the real world we are living in and not the fantasy land some are imagining where lambs will frolic merrily with lions, and the like. It isn’t and thats why if someone breaks into my house and I come across them they have the choice to surrender or be injured or killed. I’m not looking or wanting to kill someone, but I’m not willing to let someone rob me with impunity. In your world the poor little thief should not be attacked or killed because the mean old homeowner is a bloodthirsty msianthrope. In the world the rest of us live in the thief is the one who in fact started the altercation by breaking in and is the threat. This isn’t even complicated. I can only assume you have some kind of pyschological problem that doesn’t allow you to see it, and try to mask your disapproval of people defending themselves as them wanting simply to kill kill kill. This from someone who said they broke into houses for the thrill. Being shot at is thrilling, I can tell you that. > [@](#): > > Don’t mince words; you’d kill me for that and not lose a moments sleep by the sound of it. What if you didn’t have a gun, and the problem was one that had to be handled physically? Do you think you could pummel a burglar to death with a bat, say? thats asinine. You cannot claim to know whether or not he’d lose any sleep or even if it would kill you. If it did, well, you shouldn’t have fucking been robbing his house. Shifting goalposts onto what if you had to attack physically won’t change what most people are saying. Its just a reason for you to bring up some more BS about the burglar having a black belt or something. ---
**Author:** ![Scumpup](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/ce73a5/32.png) [@Scumpup](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Scumpup)\ **Post date:** [January 22, 2009, 10:56pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/ok-if-i-shouldnt-_shoot_-the-intruder-then/482060/714 "2009-01-22T22:56:05Z")
> [@ivan\_astikov](#): > > From the outside of a house you can only tell so much about the occupants. And the average burglar doesn’t think about getting caught until it happens, but if I had foreknowledge, I’d obviously go for Kalhoun’s. As it is unlikely a petty burglar would know until it came on top, I see no point to the question. Not meaningless. Unlike UK shitbags, US shitbags have to consider the risk that any occupied dwelling they break into may contain me and not Kalhoun. As a result, we have a lower rate of burglaries of occupied homes. Our own shitbags admit they fear armed homeowners. Of course some shitbags are brave or stupid. Some of them get away with it. Some get shot. I don’t feel bad for the dead ones. I feel bad for the women who birthed them. ---
**Author:** ![ivan\_astikov](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/i/58f4c7/32.png) [@ivan\_astikov](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/ivan_astikov)\ **Post date:** [January 22, 2009, 11:04pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/ok-if-i-shouldnt-_shoot_-the-intruder-then/482060/715 "2009-01-22T23:04:00Z")
> [@Jolly\_Roger](#): > > It isn’t and thats why if someone breaks into my house and I come across them they have the choice to surrender or be injured or killed. I’m not looking or wanting to kill someone, but I’m not willing to let someone rob me with impunity. In your world the poor little thief should not be attacked or killed because the mean old homeowner is a bloodthirsty msianthrope. In the world the rest of us live in the thief is the one who in fact started the altercation by breaking in and is the threat. > > This isn’t even complicated. I can only assume you have some kind of pyschological problem that doesn’t allow you to see it, and try to mask your disapproval of people defending themselves as them wanting simply to kill kill kill. This from someone who said they broke into houses for the thrill. Being shot at is thrilling, I can tell you that. **I** have a psychological problem!? I’ve shared cells with the nutjobs on our streets, know exactly how they behave and I still am less paranoid than you. A bit of advice; don’t try pot! > [@Jolly\_Roger](#): > > thats asinine. You cannot claim to know whether or not he’d lose any sleep or even if it would kill you. If it did, well, you shouldn’t have fucking been robbing his house. Shifting goalposts onto what if you had to attack physically won’t change what most people are saying. Its just a reason for you to bring up some more BS about the burglar having a black belt or something. No, that’d be you. ---
**Author:** ![Huerta88](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/h/82dd89/32.png) [@Huerta88](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Huerta88)\ **Post date:** [January 22, 2009, 11:07pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/ok-if-i-shouldnt-_shoot_-the-intruder-then/482060/716 "2009-01-22T23:07:22Z")
> [@Scumpup](#): > > Not meaningless. Unlike UK shitbags, US shitbags have to consider the risk that any occupied dwelling they break into may contain me and not Kalhoun. As a result, we have a lower rate of burglaries of occupied homes. Our own shitbags admit they fear armed homeowners. Of course some shitbags are brave or stupid. Some of them get away with it. Some get shot. I don’t feel bad for the dead ones. I feel bad for the women who birthed them. > **[Facebook](https://www.facebook.com/note.php?note_id=29695674542&id=21090771700&index=0)** Contains cites in FNs. Some very useful statistics. ---
**Author:** ![Cuckoorex](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/ad7895/32.png) [@Cuckoorex](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Cuckoorex)\ **Post date:** [January 22, 2009, 11:11pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/ok-if-i-shouldnt-_shoot_-the-intruder-then/482060/717 "2009-01-22T23:11:54Z")
> [@ivan\_astikov](#): > > **I** have a psychological problem!? I’ve shared cells with the nutjobs on our streets, know exactly how they behave and I still am less paranoid than you. Yes, you were a career criminal and even now you still have a criminal mindset. You blame the homeowner for being the victim of a home intrusion and it seems to you that crime is everyone’s fault but the person committing the crime. I’d say you have a psychological problem. You sound like a sociopath, based only on what I’ve read so far. That may totally be wrong, but that’s how you come off. ---
**Author:** ![ivan\_astikov](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/i/58f4c7/32.png) [@ivan\_astikov](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/ivan_astikov)\ **Post date:** [January 22, 2009, 11:16pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/ok-if-i-shouldnt-_shoot_-the-intruder-then/482060/718 "2009-01-22T23:16:37Z")
> [@Scumpup](#): > > Not meaningless. Unlike UK shitbags, US shitbags have to consider the risk that any occupied dwelling they break into may contain me and not Kalhoun. > > As a result, we have a lower rate of burglaries of occupied homes. Our own shitbags admit they fear armed homeowners. Hmmm…maybe if you buy bigger guns the statistics will drop even more? ---
**Author:** ![Cuckoorex](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/ad7895/32.png) [@Cuckoorex](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Cuckoorex)\ **Post date:** [January 22, 2009, 11:24pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/ok-if-i-shouldnt-_shoot_-the-intruder-then/482060/719 "2009-01-22T23:24:56Z")
> [@ivan\_astikov](#): > > Hmmm…maybe if you buy bigger guns the statistics will drop even more? Or how about maybe if douchebag criminals stop thinking they are entitled to other people’s shit the statistics will go down? What is your point, anyway? You want someone to read your pithy statement about “bigger guns” and come to the realization that “OH MY GOD, he’s RIGHT! Bigger guns aren’t the answer! It’s just like Mutual Assured Destruction during the Cold War! We’re such fools for owning guns anyway! Love is the answer!” ---
**Author:** ![ivan\_astikov](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/i/58f4c7/32.png) [@ivan\_astikov](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/ivan_astikov)\ **Post date:** [January 22, 2009, 11:40pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/ok-if-i-shouldnt-_shoot_-the-intruder-then/482060/720 "2009-01-22T23:40:03Z")
> [@Cuckoorex](#): > > Or how about maybe if douchebag criminals stop thinking they are entitled to other people’s shit the statistics will go down? Not gonna happen tho is it? Just like people who are lucky enough to be working are not going to take a voluntary £10 a week cut in their wages to help the less well off. > [@Cuckoorex](#): > > What is your point, anyway? You want someone to read your pithy statement about “bigger guns” and come to the realization that “OH MY GOD, he’s RIGHT! Bigger guns aren’t the answer! It’s just like Mutual Assured Destruction during the Cold War! We’re such fools for owning guns anyway! Love is the answer!” No real point other than to have my 2 cents worth on a subject I knew a little about, and to distract my mind from my current situation. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/ok-if-i-shouldnt-_shoot_-the-intruder-then/482060.md?page=35) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/ok-if-i-shouldnt-_shoot_-the-intruder-then/482060.md?page=37)