# Ok, if I shouldn't \_shoot\_ the intruder, then...? **URL:** \ **Category:** Great Debates\ **Created:** [January 19, 2009, 11:15pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/ok-if-i-shouldnt-_shoot_-the-intruder-then/482060 "2009-01-19T23:15:40Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 38
**Author:** ![billfish678](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/7bcc69/32.png) [@billfish678](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/billfish678)\ **Post date:** [January 23, 2009, 2:07am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/ok-if-i-shouldnt-_shoot_-the-intruder-then/482060/741 "2009-01-23T02:07:12Z")
> [@tomndebb](#): > > This is an official **Warning** to each of you that you have stepped way over the line for what is permitted in this Forum. > > Knock it off. > > (If everyone can address some issues instead of just insulting each other and making snide remarks, this thread has a remote chance that it will stay open a while longer. However, given the petulant tenor of the last few pages, I would not bet in that direction. > > **[/Moderating]** Your right. I stepped over the line there! I walked in the house pissed because I just rescued the 10th dog in 5 years in our neighborhood that is obviously is a well taken care of family pet that DOESNT have tag with a name or number on it. How these folks expect to ever get their pet back is beyond me. Again, a mea culpa from me to everyone. I take it general smart ass humor is still allowed ? 🙂 ---
**Author:** ![Scumpup](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/ce73a5/32.png) [@Scumpup](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Scumpup)\ **Post date:** [January 23, 2009, 2:09am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/ok-if-i-shouldnt-_shoot_-the-intruder-then/482060/742 "2009-01-23T02:09:41Z")
> [@Cuckoorex](#): > > Yeah, you should have, because you DID say “intruder”. > > I’m pretty fucking sure that if I see 11-year old Billy, I’m not going to shoot anyone. I’m going to ground my son and send Billy home and talk to Billy’s parents/guardian tomorrow, and ask Billy why he thought it would be OK for him to invite someone into the house after everyone’s asleep. No, check that, I would have already impressed upon him that no one is allowed in the house without permission from adults, especially after hours. Talk about a totally ridiculous scenario. You might as well ask, “Oh no, what happens if your parents come to your door with a fruit basket and instead of even asking who is at the door you open fire through the door with an AK-47?” The level of ignorance in this thread is really starting to piss me off. You don’t use an AK-47 for fruit basket-bearing old people. You use twin 9mm pistols and fire them simultaneously through the door. I don’t want to have to correct any more gun-related errors. NASCAR! ---
**Author:** ![steronz](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/steronz/32/11765_2.png) [@steronz](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/steronz)\ **Post date:** [January 23, 2009, 2:18am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/ok-if-i-shouldnt-_shoot_-the-intruder-then/482060/743 "2009-01-23T02:18:54Z")
> [@billfish678](#): > > I take it general smart ass humor is still allowed ? 🙂 I hope so. I didn’t take the two-faced turd comment to be an insult, FWIW. ---
**Author:** ![spike404](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/aeb1de/32.png) [@spike404](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/spike404)\ **Post date:** [January 23, 2009, 2:21am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/ok-if-i-shouldnt-_shoot_-the-intruder-then/482060/744 "2009-01-23T02:21:45Z")
MY GOD!!! Is this thread still going? I gave up three pages ago. Either one believes in shooting, or not! ---
**Author:** ![steronz](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/steronz/32/11765_2.png) [@steronz](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/steronz)\ **Post date:** [January 23, 2009, 2:21am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/ok-if-i-shouldnt-_shoot_-the-intruder-then/482060/745 "2009-01-23T02:21:55Z")
> [@Cuckoorex](#): > > Yeah, you should have, because you DID say “intruder”. Mistake already noted, thanks for pointing it out again. > [@Cuckoorex](#): > > Talk about a totally ridiculous scenario. You might as well ask, “Oh no, what happens if your parents come to your door with a fruit basket and instead of even asking who is at the door you open fire through the door with an AK-47?” The requirements given to me said nothing about not being ridiculous. Besides, crazy shit does happen. > **[Killing of Yoshihiro Hattori](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Yoshihiro_Hattori)** > > Yoshihiro Hattori (服部 剛丈, Hattori Yoshihiro; November 22, 1975 – October 17, 1992, often referred to as Yoshi Hattori) was a Japanese student on an exchange program to the United States who was shot to death in Baton Rouge, Louisiana. The shooting happened when Hattori, on his way to a Halloween party, went to the wrong house by mistake. Property owner Rodney Peairs (/piːrz/) fatally shot Hattori, erroneously thinking that he was trespassing with criminal intent. The killing and Peairs's tr Pea... Somewhat similar to your fruit basket scenario. ---
**Author:** ![billfish678](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/7bcc69/32.png) [@billfish678](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/billfish678)\ **Post date:** [January 23, 2009, 2:33am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/ok-if-i-shouldnt-_shoot_-the-intruder-then/482060/746 "2009-01-23T02:33:28Z")
> [@steronz](#): > > I hope so. I didn’t take the two-faced turd comment to be an insult, FWIW. I should appologize for that to you. As noted above I was pretty pissed when I came in the house. If it makes you feel any better, when I read the reply that you had posted, I thought it was from another poster that keeps dodging the issue. Thats what set me off. Again I apologize. But, like you, I can take the occasional harsh word aimed in my general direction 🙂 ---
**Author:** ![billfish678](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/7bcc69/32.png) [@billfish678](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/billfish678)\ **Post date:** [January 23, 2009, 2:36am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/ok-if-i-shouldnt-_shoot_-the-intruder-then/482060/747 "2009-01-23T02:36:34Z")
> [@tomndebb](#): > > (If everyone can address some issues instead of just insulting each other and making snide remarks, this thread has a remote chance that it will stay open a while longer. However, given the petulant tenor of the last few pages, I would not bet in that direction. Please don’t kill it yet if we start behaving. We still need to hash out some stuff thats worth discussing, though I am too high on car paint fumes to be coherent tonight for that. ---
**Author:** ![Cuckoorex](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/ad7895/32.png) [@Cuckoorex](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Cuckoorex)\ **Post date:** [January 23, 2009, 3:57am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/ok-if-i-shouldnt-_shoot_-the-intruder-then/482060/748 "2009-01-23T03:57:41Z")
> [@billfish678](#): > > Please don’t kill it yet if we start behaving. > > We still need to hash out some stuff thats worth discussing, though I am too high on car paint fumes to be coherent tonight for that. I hope to GAWD that you were painting some logos on your car…NASCAR!! ---
**Author:** ![Todderbob](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/e47774/32.png) [@Todderbob](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Todderbob)\ **Post date:** [January 23, 2009, 4:12am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/ok-if-i-shouldnt-_shoot_-the-intruder-then/482060/749 "2009-01-23T04:12:28Z")
> [@steronz](#): > > But a lion without a $300 vest, right? How is that in any way relevant? ---
**Author:** ![Cuckoorex](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/ad7895/32.png) [@Cuckoorex](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Cuckoorex)\ **Post date:** [January 23, 2009, 4:20am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/ok-if-i-shouldnt-_shoot_-the-intruder-then/482060/750 "2009-01-23T04:20:42Z")
> [@Todderbob](#): > > How is that in any way relevant? Well, usually criminals don’t have Kevlar vests, right? Maybe I’m wrong here; I haven’t encountered very many violent criminals. I’m actually not sure how that establishes anything that could be considered “relevant,” but I guess it’s just an observation of sorts. Kind of like, “Well, if you fire a gun, a bullet has to go somewhere, doesn’t it?” ---
**Author:** ![gonzomax](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/g/e8c25b/32.png) [@gonzomax](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/gonzomax)\ **Post date:** [January 23, 2009, 4:25am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/ok-if-i-shouldnt-_shoot_-the-intruder-then/482060/751 "2009-01-23T04:25:07Z")
> [@ivan\_astikov](#): > > Truthfully, is your life totally dependent on having your car and computer available at all moments? They are not quite a family member, are they? > > Again, because it is not a matter of life and death. If the thief also has a gun drawn and you can get the drop on him, fair play to you. But if a person has his back to you while attempting to start your car, shooting him is totally unneccessary. If he has entered your home and has your PC in his arms ready to carry out the door, you SHOULD NOT shoot him. If he then drops the PC and goes to pull out a gun or other weapon, blast away. > As I have said repeatedly( I’m sure it’s getting boring now!), the point of having good security is to make the potential burglar think, ‘This is too much like hard work, I’ll try next door’, and if everyone on the street has the same set up, they’ll move to another street, then another neighbourhood, until they finally think, ‘Hmmm…I wonder what the money is like in shoplifting?’ > > Believe me, as an ex-burglar I know that the prices you get for knocked-off products are hardly worth putting your gloves on for…unless you make it piss easy for burglars to get them. Same thing about dogs. If a dog is barking , a thief can just go to a house without a dog. Thieves just want your stuff. they are not after confrontations and hurting people. They are business men just making an illegal living.They want to get in and out quietly and quickly.They need money ,either to buy booze,drugs or to feed their families. ---
**Author:** ![Todderbob](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/e47774/32.png) [@Todderbob](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Todderbob)\ **Post date:** [January 23, 2009, 4:26am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/ok-if-i-shouldnt-_shoot_-the-intruder-then/482060/752 "2009-01-23T04:26:21Z")
> [@Cuckoorex](#): > > Well, usually criminals don’t have Kevlar vests, right? Maybe I’m wrong here; I haven’t encountered very many violent criminals. > > I’m actually not sure how that establishes anything that could be considered “relevant,” but I guess it’s just an observation of sorts. Kind of like, “Well, if you fire a gun, a bullet has to go somewhere, doesn’t it?” If you take a look back through the line of questioning though, it just seems to be a set of random questions with no verifiable end point, restating the obvious. Very much a summation: From poster B: “_Something about kevlar vest costs._” Me: “_$300+_” From poster A: "_We don’t all live in a world of happy merry go luck people. There are lions and lambs._ Me: "_Yes, and that’s why I reserve the right to shoot you if you enter my home against my wishes: You’ve shown yourself to be a lion of some nature._ Poster B: “_A lion without a vest, right?_” Me: “_How the hell is that relevant?_” I just don’t get how the type of clothing/armor a(n)/(possibly) armed intruder is wearing is relevant. ---
**Author:** ![ivan\_astikov](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/i/58f4c7/32.png) [@ivan\_astikov](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/ivan_astikov)\ **Post date:** [January 23, 2009, 8:34am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/ok-if-i-shouldnt-_shoot_-the-intruder-then/482060/753 "2009-01-23T08:34:26Z")
I think the point he is making is that anyone ruthless enough to carry out the type of crime feared by the OP - ie entering your home with more than the intent of theft. - is likely to be far more prepared for the occasion than you. And, unless you are prepared to reenact likely scenarios with you and yours, over and over again, your gun is not the equaliser you think it is. ---
**Author:** ![Cuckoorex](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/ad7895/32.png) [@Cuckoorex](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Cuckoorex)\ **Post date:** [January 23, 2009, 9:09am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/ok-if-i-shouldnt-_shoot_-the-intruder-then/482060/754 "2009-01-23T09:09:45Z")
> [@ivan\_astikov](#): > > I think the point he is making is that anyone ruthless enough to carry out the type of crime feared by the OP - ie entering your home with more than the intent of theft. - is likely to be far more prepared for the occasion than you. And, unless you are prepared to reenact likely scenarios with you and yours, over and over again, your gun is not the equaliser you think it is. Actually, the OP had the thief beating a hasty retreat. ---
**Author:** ![ivan\_astikov](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/i/58f4c7/32.png) [@ivan\_astikov](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/ivan_astikov)\ **Post date:** [January 23, 2009, 9:25am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/ok-if-i-shouldnt-_shoot_-the-intruder-then/482060/755 "2009-01-23T09:25:51Z")
> [@Cuckoorex](#): > > Actually, the OP had the thief beating a hasty retreat. Yes, but hadn’t y’all been discussing worst case scenarios? After all, that is why you have your guns, isn’t it? Remember the killer clowns with guns for hands and deep pockets to put your valuable stuff in after they’ve raped your pets and are about to come and do unspeakable things to you and your loved ones? How could you forget so quickly? ---
**Author:** ![ivan\_astikov](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/i/58f4c7/32.png) [@ivan\_astikov](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/ivan_astikov)\ **Post date:** [January 23, 2009, 11:18am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/ok-if-i-shouldnt-_shoot_-the-intruder-then/482060/756 "2009-01-23T11:18:32Z")
A few I missed first time round. > [@billfish678](#): > > Pointing a gun at someone DOES NOT AUTOMATICALLY REQUIRE you to pull the trigger either. > > Rule 2 means don’t point a gun at someone unless you have damn good reason to do so. > > I know its a subtle distinction, but try to concentrate here. Righty ho, because you shoot to wound and disable, don’t you? > [@billfish678](#): > > The goal isnt to kill a person for stealing shit. > > The possible death of the criminal is just a social bonus. :dubious: > [@billfish678](#): > > And the tivo doesnt even enter the picture. > > Its all about protecting yourself and your family. Which is best achieved by making sure killer clowns can’t get in in the first place and avoiding the whole Rambo shoot-out scenario! Let them come to you; don’t go out to meet them head on. > [@Sandwich](#): > > You forgot example (c), which is the intruder appears identical to example (a) but is actually an empathy-free psycopath who will kill you and your family brutally if he gets the chance. So, it sucks to be an example (a) criminal if your victims are armed, since they kill you even though you didn’t “deserve” it. Example b **is** your c. I have never met an empathy-free psychopath yet who sneaks in houses, grabs the DVD player etc, and exits quietly, leaving you to discover your lax security in the morning. > [@Sandwich](#): > > The point that many people are making, is that shooting people who have invaded your home in the middle of the night is a proportionate response to the risks you face when you don’t really know what the situation is, and are tired and confused too. I don’t think you can assert that they are demonstrably wrong, without much more persuasive arguments. And what I, kalhoun and others are trying to point out is that it is safer in the long run to rely on deterrence, rather than trying to bolt the stable door while the horse is kicking and putting up a fuss. ANYTHING can happen in those scenarios and it might be the last mistake you’ll ever make. I’m going to see if I can reach a 100 GD posts in one thread without getting told off, then I’m outta here. ---
**Author:** ![E-Sabbath](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/e19adc/32.png) [@E-Sabbath](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/E-Sabbath)\ **Post date:** [January 23, 2009, 11:19am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/ok-if-i-shouldnt-_shoot_-the-intruder-then/482060/757 "2009-01-23T11:19:32Z")
> [@ivan\_astikov](#): > > A home invasion\* to me is where someone forcibly enters a house with no intention of stealth. Do these ‘Home Invasions’ include any type of burglary? Your link wasn’t exactly informative. Funny, Ivan, that’s what they mean to me. And the rest of the northeast United States, at a minimum. Entering a home to steal things while people are present. > **[Home invasion](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Home_invasion)** > > A home invasion, also called a hot prowl burglary, is a sub-type of burglary (or in some jurisdictions, a separately defined crime) in which an offender unlawfully enters into a building residence while the occupants are inside. The overarching intent of a hot prowl burglary can be theft, robbery, assault, sexual assault, murder, kidnapping, or another crime, either by stealth or direct force. Hot prowl burglaries are considered especially dangerous by law enforcement because of the p The first p... > [@](#): > > Home invasion is the crime of entering a private and occupied dwelling, with the intent of committing a crime, often while threatening the resident of the dwelling. It is a legally defined offense in the United States, Australia, and New Zealand, and applies even if entry is not forced. It can also apply if someone is invited into a home and remains on the premises after being asked to leave by the resident. > Home invasion differs from burglary, which is usually defined as unlawful entry into any occupied or unoccupied building, with intent to commit one of a list of specified offences. Home invasion covers an intent to commit any crime. > Home invasion may be accompanied by other crimes. commit breaking and entering, and are sometimes intent on assault, robbery, rape, or murder. ---
**Author:** ![ivan\_astikov](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/i/58f4c7/32.png) [@ivan\_astikov](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/ivan_astikov)\ **Post date:** [January 23, 2009, 11:29am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/ok-if-i-shouldnt-_shoot_-the-intruder-then/482060/758 "2009-01-23T11:29:21Z")
> [@E-Sabbath](#): > > Funny, Ivan, that’s what they mean to me. And the rest of the northeast United States, at a minimum. \*\* So, don’t you differentiate between forced and non-forced entries into the home? \*\* What would your insurance company say if you tried to make a claim after a burglary, stating that the criminal got in through an open window and you had forgot to switch your motion detector on? You do have to take certain precautions for your insurance cover to be valid, don’t you? **ETA** I see you’ve answered that. Thanks. ---
**Author:** ![billfish678](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/7bcc69/32.png) [@billfish678](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/billfish678)\ **Post date:** [January 23, 2009, 12:26pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/ok-if-i-shouldnt-_shoot_-the-intruder-then/482060/759 "2009-01-23T12:26:36Z")
> [@ivan\_astikov](#): > > I think the point he is making is that anyone ruthless enough to carry out the type of crime feared by the OP - ie entering your home with more than the intent of theft. - is likely to be far more prepared for the occasion than you. And, unless you are prepared to reenact likely scenarios with you and yours, over and over again, your gun is not the equaliser you think it is. Then again, neither is hiding in the back room. If they are there for violence they are COMING for you. That rocket propelled escape pod in the back bedroom will be worth every penny someday. ---
**Author:** ![ivan\_astikov](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/i/58f4c7/32.png) [@ivan\_astikov](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/ivan_astikov)\ **Post date:** [January 23, 2009, 12:36pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/ok-if-i-shouldnt-_shoot_-the-intruder-then/482060/760 "2009-01-23T12:36:50Z")
> [@billfish678](#): > > Then again, neither is hiding in the back room. You’re not hiding, you are ‘lying in wait’ for the killer clown who wants to buttfuck you and steal your snazzy new mobile phone. Btw, how did your burglar get in again? Because if he dived through your window like a ninja, I’d say he was enough of a danger to be shot. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/ok-if-i-shouldnt-_shoot_-the-intruder-then/482060.md?page=37) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/ok-if-i-shouldnt-_shoot_-the-intruder-then/482060.md?page=39)