# Ok, if I shouldn't \_shoot\_ the intruder, then...? **URL:** \ **Category:** Great Debates\ **Created:** [January 19, 2009, 11:15pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/ok-if-i-shouldnt-_shoot_-the-intruder-then/482060 "2009-01-19T23:15:40Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 39
**Author:** ![Kalhoun](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/k/3bc359/32.png) [@Kalhoun](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Kalhoun)\ **Post date:** [January 23, 2009, 12:36pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/ok-if-i-shouldnt-_shoot_-the-intruder-then/482060/761 "2009-01-23T12:36:56Z")
> [@E-Sabbath](#): > > Funny, Ivan, that’s what they mean to me. And the rest of the northeast United States, at a minimum. Entering a home to steal things while people are present. > [Home invasion - Wikipedia](http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Home_invasion) This is my understanding of the law, as well. In addition, some jurisdictions differentiate between “daytime” and “nighttime” break-ins, because people are more likely to be there after dark. ---
**Author:** ![steronz](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/steronz/32/11765_2.png) [@steronz](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/steronz)\ **Post date:** [January 23, 2009, 12:42pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/ok-if-i-shouldnt-_shoot_-the-intruder-then/482060/762 "2009-01-23T12:42:55Z")
> [@Cuckoorex](#): > > Well, usually criminals don’t have Kevlar vests, right? Maybe I’m wrong here; I haven’t encountered very many violent criminals. > > I’m actually not sure how that establishes anything that could be considered “relevant,” but I guess it’s just an observation of sorts. Kind of like, “Well, if you fire a gun, a bullet has to go somewhere, doesn’t it?” We established upthread that despite assuming the worst about any intruder, **Todderbob** here is also making the assumption that they’re ill-equipped. Which seems like a contradiction. Maybe the lion-lamb analogy still holds true, since there are worse things than a lion that could be in your living room (although a lamb would be a pain in the ass too), but I just wanted to point out that it was a lion without a kevlar vest. It’s really not relevant given his post on page 1. ---
**Author:** ![Kalhoun](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/k/3bc359/32.png) [@Kalhoun](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Kalhoun)\ **Post date:** [January 23, 2009, 12:46pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/ok-if-i-shouldnt-_shoot_-the-intruder-then/482060/763 "2009-01-23T12:46:56Z")
I was burgled 20 years ago, back when we didn’t lock our house. The insurance company still paid us for the stolen stuff. ---
**Author:** ![ivan\_astikov](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/i/58f4c7/32.png) [@ivan\_astikov](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/ivan_astikov)\ **Post date:** [January 23, 2009, 12:47pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/ok-if-i-shouldnt-_shoot_-the-intruder-then/482060/764 "2009-01-23T12:47:34Z")
> [@Kalhoun](#): > > This is my understanding of the law, as well. In addition, some jurisdictions differentiate between “daytime” and “nighttime” break-ins, because people are more likely to be there after dark. People are also more lax with their security when they are in their home though. I know you shouldn’t have to think about things like that while you are relaxing in your own house, but the fact of the matter is, some people will take advantage of that mind-set. Anything you do to discourage those types of people from even attempting to steal your stuff, is better than dealing with it with a firearm. ---
**Author:** ![Cuckoorex](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/ad7895/32.png) [@Cuckoorex](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Cuckoorex)\ **Post date:** [January 23, 2009, 12:51pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/ok-if-i-shouldnt-_shoot_-the-intruder-then/482060/765 "2009-01-23T12:51:03Z")
> [@steronz](#): > > We established upthread that despite assuming the worst about any intruder, **Todderbob** here is also making the assumption that they’re ill-equipped. Which seems like a contradiction. Maybe the lion-lamb analogy still holds true, since there are worse things than a lion that could be in your living room (although a lamb would be a pain in the ass too), but I just wanted to point out that it was a lion without a kevlar vest. It’s really not relevant given his post on page 1. The animal analogies are giving me a headache. ---
**Author:** ![Kalhoun](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/k/3bc359/32.png) [@Kalhoun](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Kalhoun)\ **Post date:** [January 23, 2009, 12:57pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/ok-if-i-shouldnt-_shoot_-the-intruder-then/482060/766 "2009-01-23T12:57:49Z")
> [@ivan\_astikov](#): > > People are also more lax with their security when they are in their home though. I know you shouldn’t have to think about things like that while you are relaxing in your own house, but the fact of the matter is, some people will take advantage of that mind-set. Anything you do to discourage those types of people from even attempting to steal your stuff, is better than dealing with it with a firearm. I agree. We bought a security system after the burglaries, even though both the cops and us believe they were teenagers out for a thrill. ---
**Author:** ![ivan\_astikov](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/i/58f4c7/32.png) [@ivan\_astikov](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/ivan_astikov)\ **Post date:** [January 23, 2009, 12:59pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/ok-if-i-shouldnt-_shoot_-the-intruder-then/482060/767 "2009-01-23T12:59:46Z")
> [@Cuckoorex](#): > > The animal analogies are giving me a headache. We can put aside the kevlar vest if we have a rhino trying to gain entry, and a pride of lions inside. What the lions need to decide is whether to scare the rhino off; wait for it to get inside then kill it and eat it( whilst remaining very wary of that big horn!), or phone up some gorillas to come and escort the rhino away, whilst hoping their isn’t a herd of wildebeest on the freeway. ---
**Author:** ![Cuckoorex](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/ad7895/32.png) [@Cuckoorex](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Cuckoorex)\ **Post date:** [January 23, 2009, 1:04pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/ok-if-i-shouldnt-_shoot_-the-intruder-then/482060/768 "2009-01-23T13:04:19Z")
> [@ivan\_astikov](#): > > We can put aside the kevlar vest if we have a rhino trying to gain entry, and a pride of lions inside. What the lions need to decide is whether to scare the rhino off, kill it and eat it( whilst remaining very wary of that big horn!), or phone up some gorillas to come and escort the rhino away, whilst hoping their isn’t a herd of wildebeest on the freeway. Well obviously that depends on the quality of the locks that the lions purchased. If they’re shitty locks, then the rhinos have free reign. ---
**Author:** ![ivan\_astikov](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/i/58f4c7/32.png) [@ivan\_astikov](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/ivan_astikov)\ **Post date:** [January 23, 2009, 1:09pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/ok-if-i-shouldnt-_shoot_-the-intruder-then/482060/769 "2009-01-23T13:09:20Z")
> [@Cuckoorex](#): > > Well obviously that depends on the quality of the locks that the lions purchased. If they’re shitty locks, then the rhinos have free reign. Lions are the king of the jungle, they don’t need locks really. Trouble is, the rhino doesn’t care about bestowed rights of heritage. Hey, rhino’s are like that. Give a rhino a bad name. ---
**Author:** ![Scumpup](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/ce73a5/32.png) [@Scumpup](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Scumpup)\ **Post date:** [January 23, 2009, 1:37pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/ok-if-i-shouldnt-_shoot_-the-intruder-then/482060/770 "2009-01-23T13:37:27Z")
Part of the problem with your argument, Ivan, is that you are assuming US criminals are just like you and your cellmates. I see no reason to believe your knowledge of criminals is that comprehensive. In point of fact, I have greater experience with US miscreants than you do. ---
**Author:** ![ivan\_astikov](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/i/58f4c7/32.png) [@ivan\_astikov](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/ivan_astikov)\ **Post date:** [January 23, 2009, 1:57pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/ok-if-i-shouldnt-_shoot_-the-intruder-then/482060/771 "2009-01-23T13:57:08Z")
> [@Scumpup](#): > > Part of the problem with your argument, Ivan, is that you are assuming US criminals are just like you and your cellmates. I see no reason to believe your knowledge of criminals is that comprehensive. In point of fact, I have greater experience with US miscreants than you do. True. I’ll have to concede that one. I’m not sure that the psychology of criminals is that different from continent to continent, though. Do you think your ‘projects’ are that much different than places like Moss Side, Salford, and Cheetham Hill in and around Manchester? The only difference I see between the rough and ready types over here and in your part of the world is we have far fewer guns. Machetes and baseball bats tend to be the equalisers over here. Although media reports would have you believe that guns are becoming as popular. ---
**Author:** ![Todderbob](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/e47774/32.png) [@Todderbob](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Todderbob)\ **Post date:** [January 23, 2009, 5:30pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/ok-if-i-shouldnt-_shoot_-the-intruder-then/482060/772 "2009-01-23T17:30:54Z")
> [@ivan\_astikov](#): > > \*\* > > So, don’t you differentiate between forced and non-forced entries into the home? \*\* > > What would your insurance company say if you tried to make a claim after a burglary, stating that the criminal got in through an open window and you had forgot to switch your motion detector on? > > You do have to take certain precautions for your insurance cover to be valid, don’t you? > > **ETA** I see you’ve answered that. Thanks. They’d say “It sucks you got robbed, here’s your check.” ---
**Author:** ![Todderbob](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/e47774/32.png) [@Todderbob](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Todderbob)\ **Post date:** [January 23, 2009, 5:36pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/ok-if-i-shouldnt-_shoot_-the-intruder-then/482060/773 "2009-01-23T17:36:55Z")
> [@steronz](#): > > We established upthread that despite assuming the worst about any intruder, **Todderbob** here is also making the assumption that they’re ill-equipped. Which seems like a contradiction. Maybe the lion-lamb analogy still holds true, since there are worse things than a lion that could be in your living room (although a lamb would be a pain in the ass too), but I just wanted to point out that it was a lion without a kevlar vest. It’s really not relevant given his post on page 1. There’s no contradiction there at all. I’m not assuming the worst. I’m **preparing** for the worst. I also have 15+1 shots in my pistol, and 5 or 6 in my shotgun. So, even if they are wearing a kevlar vest, after the first three shots to the chest (in under 2 seconds, thank you very much), if they’re still coming at me, I can re-target, and shoot at their head. Which, unless they’re more than 20 yards away, I should have very little difficulty hitting. And, since they’re in my home, they’re likely to be no more than 10 yards away. I am not assuming the worst, if anything, I’m assuming the best. I’m assuming that when I say “Freeze or I’ll shoot,” they’ll do just that, or I wouldn’t say it at all. But, if they don’t do that, I’m going to shoot them. Many times, if necessary. ---
**Author:** ![Todderbob](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/e47774/32.png) [@Todderbob](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Todderbob)\ **Post date:** [January 23, 2009, 5:39pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/ok-if-i-shouldnt-_shoot_-the-intruder-then/482060/774 "2009-01-23T17:39:24Z")
> [@ivan\_astikov](#): > > Machetes and baseball bats tend to be the equalisers over here. You obviously don’t understand what “Equalizer” means. I’d like to see a 70 year old lady, or a person with limited mobility in their arms use a machete. I’ve seen plenty of them use firearms, I’ve even been party to helping teach a woman, about 40, how to shoot. She couldn’t lift her arms any higher than a few degrees off parallel with the ground. She’d never have been able to swing a bat. That pistol, however, will prevent her from being robbed again. > [@ivan\_astikov](#): > > Although media reports would have you believe that guns are becoming as popular. Gun violence has gone up in the UK since guns were banned. ---
**Author:** ![steronz](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/steronz/32/11765_2.png) [@steronz](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/steronz)\ **Post date:** [January 23, 2009, 5:44pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/ok-if-i-shouldnt-_shoot_-the-intruder-then/482060/775 "2009-01-23T17:44:11Z")
Meh, preparing for the worst would be hiding your family in a panic room and flooding your house with halon or something. You already said that confronting the intruder isn’t your first choice, so I’ve got no beef with you. I just think that the mere thought of confronting an unknown intruder means that the homeowner has already decided that odds are he’s NOT facing the worst. It sounds like you’re preparing for something much easier than the worst, in fact a situation where you will get the jump on a single intruder and be able to take him down in less than 2 seconds with multiple handgun shots, if necessary. The worst won’t go down that easily, and might not be alone, and etc etc. ---
**Author:** ![Todderbob](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/e47774/32.png) [@Todderbob](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Todderbob)\ **Post date:** [January 23, 2009, 5:53pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/ok-if-i-shouldnt-_shoot_-the-intruder-then/482060/776 "2009-01-23T17:53:28Z")
> [@steronz](#): > > Meh, preparing for the worst would be hiding your family in a panic room and flooding your house with halon or something. You already said that confronting the intruder isn’t your first choice, so I’ve got no beef with you. I just think that the mere thought of confronting an unknown intruder means that the homeowner has already decided that odds are he’s NOT facing the worst. It sounds like you’re preparing for something much easier than the worst, in fact a situation where you will get the jump on a single intruder and be able to take him down in less than 2 seconds with multiple handgun shots, if necessary. The worst won’t go down that easily, and might not be alone, and etc etc. I would be willing to confront an intruder in my house, if the situation were different though. If I had children, and confronting the intruder were required for me to believe I was protecting them, even by the smallest bit of a thought, I would immediately confront the intruder without hesitation. If he’s not alone, the second intruder typically runs after the first is shot, if not, I’m intelligent enough to distinguish 2 sets of breathing from 1. I have a an electronic headset that blocks out noise from gunshots, but mangifies anything lower. I can hear breathing, stepping, etc (from across my house). Those are typically for range use, and not turned up so high, but for home defense, I’d use them in that manner. I doubt I’d grab my handgun as my first gun anyway, I’d more likely grab my Shotgun, a semi-automatic 12 gauge loaded with buck shot. I’m not really all that worried about over penetration, and I don’t think there’s a kevlar vest invented that can withstand it. ETA: And as close as I can have, I do have a e-beef with you. And not the yummy kind that goes on burgers. You’re attempting to tell another person how they should defend their home and livelyhood. And that’s ridiculous. You have no vested interest, unless you are the home-invader. One does not have to be take part in an activity in order to recognize that another person has the right to take part in it. ---
**Author:** ![steronz](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/steronz/32/11765_2.png) [@steronz](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/steronz)\ **Post date:** [January 23, 2009, 6:04pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/ok-if-i-shouldnt-_shoot_-the-intruder-then/482060/777 "2009-01-23T18:04:54Z")
I have an interest in living in a society where guns aren’t seen as the answer to a whole slew of problems. That’s my stake here. Gun accidents happen, arguments get out of hand that are “solved” with guns, misguided youth swiping TVs stop breathing because a homeowner “had no choice.” It’s depressing. I don’t want to live in a world where a loaded handgun under the pillow is seen as necessary, and I don’t think it is. But others disagree, and that irks me. I’m just trying to put risks and options in perspective, although I’m awfully ineffectual at it. ---
**Author:** ![Todderbob](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/e47774/32.png) [@Todderbob](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Todderbob)\ **Post date:** [January 23, 2009, 6:09pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/ok-if-i-shouldnt-_shoot_-the-intruder-then/482060/778 "2009-01-23T18:09:15Z")
> [@steronz](#): > > I have an interest in living in a society where guns aren’t seen as the answer to a whole slew of problems. That’s not even remotely what’s being proposed here. > [@steronz](#): > > That’s my stake here. Oh, so… invented, then? > [@steronz](#): > > Gun accidents happen, Not relevant to the thread at hand… > [@steronz](#): > > arguments get out of hand that are “solved” with guns, Again, not relevant to the thread at hand… > [@steronz](#): > > misguided youth swiping TVs stop breathing because a homeowner “had no choice.” No one here is proposing that there isn’t a choice involved. The choice, however, is to err on the side of caution. Perhaps if those ‘misguided youth’ who are committing felonies did something else, they wouldn’t be so misguided, hu? > [@steronz](#): > > It’s depressing. I don’t want to live in a world where a loaded handgun under the pillow is seen as necessary, and I don’t think it is. But others disagree, and that irks me. No one here says its necessary, in fact, some of the posters in this thread don’t even own guns. > [@steronz](#): > > I’m just trying to put risks and options in perspective, although I’m awfully ineffectual at it. Actually, the reason you’re being ineffectual is because (as evidenced by this post) you’re letting your personal antigun bias influence your opinion on the matter. “_There’s a chance you might use your gun in an argument, therefore you shouldn’t use it in home defense!_” And Apples are red because I urinate yellow. Non sequitur much? ---
**Author:** ![E-Sabbath](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/e19adc/32.png) [@E-Sabbath](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/E-Sabbath)\ **Post date:** [January 23, 2009, 6:09pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/ok-if-i-shouldnt-_shoot_-the-intruder-then/482060/779 "2009-01-23T18:09:29Z")
I’m still waiting for a moral reason not to shoot someone stealing my car. ---
**Author:** ![Lumpy](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/lumpy/32/446_2.png) [@Lumpy](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Lumpy)\ **Post date:** [January 23, 2009, 6:15pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/ok-if-i-shouldnt-_shoot_-the-intruder-then/482060/780 "2009-01-23T18:15:54Z")
I wonder: have any of those gated-community type developments (where they can mandate all sorts of requirements for you to join) ever actually required members to own guns and to be certified in home defense? I think if someone did, it would (1). Be very attractive to that sort of people (2.) Get in the news rapidly and be widely denounced (3). Burglars would avoid the place like it was owned by the Mob. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/ok-if-i-shouldnt-_shoot_-the-intruder-then/482060.md?page=38) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/ok-if-i-shouldnt-_shoot_-the-intruder-then/482060.md?page=40)