# Ok, if I shouldn't \_shoot\_ the intruder, then...? **URL:** \ **Category:** Great Debates\ **Created:** [January 19, 2009, 11:15pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/ok-if-i-shouldnt-_shoot_-the-intruder-then/482060 "2009-01-19T23:15:40Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 44
**Author:** ![Huerta88](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/h/82dd89/32.png) [@Huerta88](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Huerta88)\ **Post date:** [January 25, 2009, 10:07pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/ok-if-i-shouldnt-_shoot_-the-intruder-then/482060/861 "2009-01-25T22:07:58Z")
> [@ivan\_astikov](#): > > Okay, I get you. You don’t give a shit about anything but you and yours, but you expect other people to give a shit about it. I care deeply about my law-abiding neighbors and fellow-citizens. One way I show it is by NOT BREAKING INTO THEIR HOUSE. I call that giving a shiat. Your thinking is truly sociopathic. You claim actually to believe that my desire to maintain the sovereignty of my house is some sort of selfish special pleading, something that I want, whereas I’m not willing to do anything for anyone else. I do something for others every damn day that goes by and I observe the social contract. I go above that – I give at the office, I pay for massive governmental and social spending, I voluntarily do charity. I’m not going to listen to a prison kitten tell me, though, that I am bad because I choose not to give in the form of surrendering my property to a thief in the night, or at a minimum, sitting down for a chat to find out his tale of woe (criminals are IME almost ALWAYS nauseatingly self-pitying), and setting him on the path to the Nobel Prize. My standard – leave me and my house alone, period, and I’ll do the same for yours – would generalize quite well under the Categorical Imperative. The prison kitten approach would not. ---
**Author:** ![Cuckoorex](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/ad7895/32.png) [@Cuckoorex](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Cuckoorex)\ **Post date:** [January 25, 2009, 10:08pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/ok-if-i-shouldnt-_shoot_-the-intruder-then/482060/862 "2009-01-25T22:08:09Z")
Nice false dichotomy, **ivan**. If I’m willing to defend myself against a home invasion kitten, possibly with lethal force, I clearly have no interest in social programs designed to rehabilitate prison kittens. My eyes just rolled back so far that I had to do a backflip to keep up with them. ---
**Author:** ![1stFusilier](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/1/58956e/32.png) [@1stFusilier](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/1stFusilier)\ **Post date:** [January 25, 2009, 10:09pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/ok-if-i-shouldnt-_shoot_-the-intruder-then/482060/863 "2009-01-25T22:09:46Z")
> [@Scumpup](#): > > If Mr. Intruder Fuzzy Bunny wanted to for us to find out about each other and get to know each other’s innermost thoughts and feelings, breaking into my fucking house wasn’t exactly the best way to go about it. He’d have done better to chat me up over a glass at one of my favorite watering holes. I’d have probably even bought the wings if he had a pert set of buttocks. By breaking into my house, he’s drastically limited my ability to bond with him. Now our options are limited to he flees/surrenders or I shoot him. > Clearly, the real problem is that prison kitties don’t know how to handle their loneliness. Who’s asking you to bond with the intruder? Lets keep it real please. Likewise shooting a stranger dead isn’t going to do much for a happy family atmosphere once the blood’s been washed up and forensics have left and the police investigation is over. ---
**Author:** ![Cuckoorex](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/ad7895/32.png) [@Cuckoorex](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Cuckoorex)\ **Post date:** [January 25, 2009, 10:09pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/ok-if-i-shouldnt-_shoot_-the-intruder-then/482060/864 "2009-01-25T22:09:48Z")
> [@1stFusilier](#): > > BTW would you rather have the hassle of fixing new tyres for your car or the blood of a human being on your hands? Did you even read my post? Did you read it at all? Go back an re-read it, please, and tell me where I said that shooting the prison kitten in the car theft scenario was preferrable. ---
**Author:** ![Scumpup](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/ce73a5/32.png) [@Scumpup](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Scumpup)\ **Post date:** [January 25, 2009, 10:09pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/ok-if-i-shouldnt-_shoot_-the-intruder-then/482060/865 "2009-01-25T22:09:55Z")
See, the best part of all this is that I’ve yet to see any convincing reason given why I should not shoot a stray prison kittie when I find one in my home at zero-dark-thirty. Y’all just keep calling me bloodthirsty and an example of society’s decline and making excuses for foo-foo-prison-kittie-fuck. Why doesn’t Mr. About-to-end-his-pustulent-life-of-crime-in-a-pool-of-blood-on-my-floor Asshole just stay out of my house? Hmm? Why doesn’t he just do that? ---
**Author:** ![Scumpup](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/ce73a5/32.png) [@Scumpup](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Scumpup)\ **Post date:** [January 25, 2009, 10:13pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/ok-if-i-shouldnt-_shoot_-the-intruder-then/482060/866 "2009-01-25T22:13:33Z")
> [@1stFusilier](#): > > Who’s asking you to bond with the intruder? Lets keep it real please. > > Likewise shooting a stranger dead isn’t going to do much for a happy family atmosphere once the blood’s been washed up and forensics have left and the police investigation is over. Yeah, but I’ll still have a family and they’ll still have me while one dead-ass criminal is busy making the worms feel replete. I’ll be happy to be with my family. My family will be happy to have me. The worms will, no doubt, be happy to have full bellies. Forensics will be happy to get to exercise their skills and use their equipment. Everybody, in fact, except the criminal asshole will be happy. ---
**Author:** ![Freudian\_Slit](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/f/5daacb/32.png) [@Freudian\_Slit](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Freudian_Slit)\ **Post date:** [January 25, 2009, 10:15pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/ok-if-i-shouldnt-_shoot_-the-intruder-then/482060/867 "2009-01-25T22:15:18Z")
> [@ivan\_astikov](#): > > Okay, I get you. You don’t give a shit about anything but you and yours, but you expect other people to give a shit about it. > > Because, it’s far easier to remove a criminal with a bullet, than it is to reform them with a little compassion and a lot of effort. You yourself admitted, though, that when you were a criminal, you didn’t exactly need compassion. You weren’t stealing because you needed food or clothing, but because you were bored and wanted stuff. What effort do you think someone should have made if they’d caught you in the act of stealing something? ---
**Author:** ![Cuckoorex](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/ad7895/32.png) [@Cuckoorex](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Cuckoorex)\ **Post date:** [January 25, 2009, 10:16pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/ok-if-i-shouldnt-_shoot_-the-intruder-then/482060/868 "2009-01-25T22:16:35Z")
Either that or they try to redefine the situation; now it’s someone stealing a car in the garage or whatever, pretty soon it’ll be that the prison kittens are just spitting on your unoccupied boat because he has daddy issues and BLAM BLAM BLAM you just want to see innocent blood in the water KILL KILL KILL NASCAR!! ---
**Author:** ![ivan\_astikov](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/i/58f4c7/32.png) [@ivan\_astikov](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/ivan_astikov)\ **Post date:** [January 25, 2009, 10:17pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/ok-if-i-shouldnt-_shoot_-the-intruder-then/482060/869 "2009-01-25T22:17:40Z")
Bonus questions. How many ammunition makers sell rubber bullets for varying types of weapon? Is it only the police and armed forces who have access to this type of ammo, or is it just not popular among gun enthusiasts? If using a gun is meant only as a last resort deterrent, is it entirely neccessary to load up with almost guaranteed lethal ammo? ---
**Author:** ![1stFusilier](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/1/58956e/32.png) [@1stFusilier](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/1stFusilier)\ **Post date:** [January 25, 2009, 10:21pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/ok-if-i-shouldnt-_shoot_-the-intruder-then/482060/870 "2009-01-25T22:21:41Z")
> [@Cuckoorex](#): > > Did you even read my post? Did you read it at all? Go back an re-read it, please, and tell me where I said that shooting the prison kitten in the car theft scenario was preferrable. FTR we wouldn’t even be having this conversation if you hadn’t misread (or deliberately misinterpreted?) my OP. > [@Cuckoorex](#): > > If the thief is SO determined to steal your car that he isn’t going to go into fight or flight mode as soon as you shoot ANYWHERE near him, he can probably manage to drive away with your car even on flat tires. \*And if he does immediately flee, now you’ve got flat tires as well. \* As you see, you do seem to be slightly put out at having to replace the tyres. Indeed, you use it as part of your argument as to why it wouldn’t be such a great idea to shoot the tyres rather than the thief. ---
**Author:** ![Scumpup](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/ce73a5/32.png) [@Scumpup](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Scumpup)\ **Post date:** [January 25, 2009, 10:22pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/ok-if-i-shouldnt-_shoot_-the-intruder-then/482060/871 "2009-01-25T22:22:25Z")
Piss on that less-lethal stuff. It doesn’t work reliably and LE back up their use of it with plain old lead. I know from personal experience. What? You think I’m going to have my wife or daughter stand by with an AR-15 while I putz around with less-lethal options? That’s exactly how LE use the stuff. One guy with less-lethal, another guy(s) with plain-old-lethal. You still haven’t addressed why Mr. Criminal Pustule can’t just stay out of my house. ---
**Author:** ![Cuckoorex](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/ad7895/32.png) [@Cuckoorex](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Cuckoorex)\ **Post date:** [January 25, 2009, 10:23pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/ok-if-i-shouldnt-_shoot_-the-intruder-then/482060/872 "2009-01-25T22:23:39Z")
> [@ivan\_astikov](#): > > Bonus questions. > > How many ammunition makers sell rubber bullets for varying types of weapon? Is it only the police and armed forces who have access to this type of ammo, or is it just not popular among gun enthusiasts? If using a gun is meant only as a last resort deterrent, is it entirely neccessary to load up with almost guaranteed lethal ammo? Of course not. Less than lethal ammunition is available for a wide variety of guns. If I ever do own a gun for the purpose of home defense, I’d most likely keep it loaded with such ammunition. But even rubber bullets and bean bag rounds can be potentially lethal. ---
**Author:** ![1stFusilier](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/1/58956e/32.png) [@1stFusilier](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/1stFusilier)\ **Post date:** [January 25, 2009, 10:26pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/ok-if-i-shouldnt-_shoot_-the-intruder-then/482060/873 "2009-01-25T22:26:21Z")
> [@Scumpup](#): > > See, the best part of all this is that I’ve yet to see any convincing reason given why I should not shoot a stray prison kittie when I find one in my home at zero-dark-thirty. Y’all just keep calling me bloodthirsty and an example of society’s decline and making excuses for foo-foo-prison-kittie-fuck. > Why doesn’t Mr. About-to-end-his-pustulent-life-of-crime-in-a-pool-of-blood-on-my-floor Asshole just stay out of my house? Hmm? Why doesn’t he just do that? Ok - lets use our imagination. Say Tommy’s a 16 yr old from a poor neighbourhood. His father left years ago. Say Tommy’s mother is ill with cancer and can’t work. They need money for her medicine. Say little Tommy is naive and in his desperation breaks into your house for a few electricals to gather a few dollars. He has no weapons, no intention of being violent. Then you appear with your gun. There are so many possible different endings to that story but if a bullet is fired I’m damn sure there ain’t a happy ending. ---
**Author:** ![Cuckoorex](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/ad7895/32.png) [@Cuckoorex](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Cuckoorex)\ **Post date:** [January 25, 2009, 10:27pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/ok-if-i-shouldnt-_shoot_-the-intruder-then/482060/874 "2009-01-25T22:27:02Z")
> [@1stFusilier](#): > > As you see, you do seem to be slightly put out at having to replace the tyres. Indeed, you use it as part of your argument as to why it wouldn’t be such a great idea to shoot the tyres rather than the thief. (do not flame, do not flame) OK. Let’s review. You said it’s better to shoot the tires than the thief. I say it’s better to shoot anywhere near the thief than to shoot the tires. At no point did I say that it was preferable to shoot the prison kitten in this situation. AT NO POINT. If I am going to get the same reaction from the prison kitten by shooting at the wall or the tires, OF FUCKING COURSE I’m not going to shoot the tires! ---
**Author:** ![Cuckoorex](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/ad7895/32.png) [@Cuckoorex](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Cuckoorex)\ **Post date:** [January 25, 2009, 10:31pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/ok-if-i-shouldnt-_shoot_-the-intruder-then/482060/875 "2009-01-25T22:31:38Z")
> [@1stFusilier](#): > > Ok - lets use our imagination. Say Tommy’s a 16 yr old from a poor neighbourhood. His father left years ago. Say Tommy’s mother is ill with cancer and can’t work. They need money for her medicine. Say little Tommy is naive and in his desperation breaks into your house for a few electricals to gather a few dollars. He has no weapons, no intention of being violent. Then you appear with your gun. > > There are so many possible different endings to that story but if a bullet is fired I’m damn sure there ain’t a happy ending. And it’s the homeowner’s responsibility to mindread poor lil Tommy again! We’re back to that old chestnut! Let’s say Tommy secretly has also been keeping a journal full of drawings of women tied up and bleeding, and he’s been wondering what it feels like to choke someone to death. Right now he’s getting “electricals” but in the back of his mind he’s recalling that Lil Jenny lives in this house, and she’s real pretty and he’s GOING TO RAPE AND KILL THAT BITCH!!! Seriously, if we have to accept that Lil Tommy is just in the house trying to gather some loot to help Mother, why not my scenario? How is Mr. Homeowner, woken up at 3 A.M. by someone illegally in his home, supposed to know the difference without your magical mindreading powers? ---
**Author:** ![Scumpup](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/ce73a5/32.png) [@Scumpup](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Scumpup)\ **Post date:** [January 25, 2009, 10:31pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/ok-if-i-shouldnt-_shoot_-the-intruder-then/482060/876 "2009-01-25T22:31:41Z")
> [@1stFusilier](#): > > Ok - lets use our imagination. Say Tommy’s a 16 yr old from a poor neighbourhood. His father left years ago. Say Tommy’s mother is ill with cancer and can’t work. They need money for her medicine. Say little Tommy is naive and in his desperation breaks into your house for a few electricals to gather a few dollars. He has no weapons, no intention of being violent. Then you appear with your gun. > > There are so many possible different endings to that story but if a bullet is fired I’m damn sure there ain’t a happy ending. Why doesn’t little Tommy get a job? Why doesn’t little Tommy beg on the street corner? Hell, why doesn’t little Tommy give blowjobs in the men’s room at the bus station? We have your buddy Ivan right here in this thread to show that your typical pus-bag wasn’t doing burglaries t pay for his sainted mother’s chemotherapy. ---
**Author:** ![Baker](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/bb73d2/32.png) [@Baker](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Baker)\ **Post date:** [January 25, 2009, 10:35pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/ok-if-i-shouldnt-_shoot_-the-intruder-then/482060/877 "2009-01-25T22:35:05Z")
Back when I was in Michigan, in the late 80’s, a convenience store clerk in Lansing was robbed at gunpoint. Robber started to leave, presenting his back to the clerk. Then, as he got to the door, he turned back and shot and killed the unarmed clerk. So just because a guy has his back to me I’ll never again assume I’m safe, and would have no problem if such a person, in that situation, got shot themselves. ---
**Author:** ![ivan\_astikov](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/i/58f4c7/32.png) [@ivan\_astikov](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/ivan_astikov)\ **Post date:** [January 25, 2009, 10:35pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/ok-if-i-shouldnt-_shoot_-the-intruder-then/482060/878 "2009-01-25T22:35:17Z")
> [@Cuckoorex](#): > > Of course not. Less than lethal ammunition is available for a wide variety of guns. If I ever do own a gun for the purpose of home defense, I’d most likely keep it loaded with such ammunition. But even rubber bullets and bean bag rounds can be potentially lethal. I can respect you as a person and imagine you wouldn’t treat a beggar with contempt, either. > [@Scumpup](#): > > Piss on that less-lethal stuff. It doesn’t work reliably and LE back up their use of it with plain old lead. I know from personal experience. What? You think I’m going to have my wife or daughter stand by with an AR-15 while I putz around with less-lethal options? That’s exactly how LE use the stuff. One guy with less-lethal, another guy(s) with plain-old-lethal. Why am I not surprised? > [@Scumpup](#): > > You still haven’t addressed why Mr. Criminal Pustule can’t just stay out of my house. Because there is a real world beyond your wishful one that isn’t going to be changed with a few well aimed bullets. ---
**Author:** ![Scumpup](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/ce73a5/32.png) [@Scumpup](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Scumpup)\ **Post date:** [January 25, 2009, 10:37pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/ok-if-i-shouldnt-_shoot_-the-intruder-then/482060/879 "2009-01-25T22:37:55Z")
> [@ivan\_astikov](#): > > I can respect you as a person and imagine you wouldn’t treat a beggar with contempt, either. > Why am I not surprised? > > Because there is a real world beyond your wishful one that isn’t going to be changed with a few well aimed bullets. It is also a fact of the real world that home invaders get shot by armed homeowners. ---
**Author:** ![Freudian\_Slit](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/f/5daacb/32.png) [@Freudian\_Slit](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Freudian_Slit)\ **Post date:** [January 25, 2009, 10:39pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/ok-if-i-shouldnt-_shoot_-the-intruder-then/482060/880 "2009-01-25T22:39:50Z")
> [@Scumpup](#): > > You still haven’t addressed why Mr. Criminal Pustule can’t just stay out of my house. Well…you did leave your lawn mower out unsecured. And c’mon, with your window open that fraction of a crack? Did you _really_ expect him to just walk on by? [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/ok-if-i-shouldnt-_shoot_-the-intruder-then/482060.md?page=43) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/ok-if-i-shouldnt-_shoot_-the-intruder-then/482060.md?page=45)