# Ok, if I shouldn't \_shoot\_ the intruder, then...? **URL:** \ **Category:** Great Debates\ **Created:** [January 19, 2009, 11:15pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/ok-if-i-shouldnt-_shoot_-the-intruder-then/482060 "2009-01-19T23:15:40Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 45
**Author:** ![ivan\_astikov](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/i/58f4c7/32.png) [@ivan\_astikov](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/ivan_astikov)\ **Post date:** [January 25, 2009, 10:44pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/ok-if-i-shouldnt-_shoot_-the-intruder-then/482060/881 "2009-01-25T22:44:57Z")
Okay, okay, I get the message. Criminals should stop being bad or end up dead. Stick that on a sign in your front yard, and see how long it is before some true sociopaths take you up on your challenge. You really need to shake off this frontier spirit of ‘every problem can be solved with a good gun.’! ---
**Author:** ![Scumpup](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/ce73a5/32.png) [@Scumpup](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Scumpup)\ **Post date:** [January 25, 2009, 10:47pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/ok-if-i-shouldnt-_shoot_-the-intruder-then/482060/882 "2009-01-25T22:47:37Z")
> [@ivan\_astikov](#): > > Okay, okay, I get the message. Criminals should stop being bad or end up dead. Stick that on a sign in your front yard, and see how long it is before some true sociopaths take you up on your challenge. You really need to shake off this frontier spirit of ‘every problem can be solved with a good gun.’! You really need to disabuse yourself of the notion that I am going to allow criminals to act with impunity, especially in my own home, when I am capable of doing something about it. The law here in the US agrees with me. ---
**Author:** ![1stFusilier](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/1/58956e/32.png) [@1stFusilier](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/1stFusilier)\ **Post date:** [January 25, 2009, 10:48pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/ok-if-i-shouldnt-_shoot_-the-intruder-then/482060/883 "2009-01-25T22:48:55Z")
> [@Cuckoorex](#): > > And it’s the homeowner’s responsibility to mindread poor lil Tommy again! We’re back to that old chestnut! Let’s say Tommy secretly has also been keeping a journal full of drawings of women tied up and bleeding, and he’s been wondering what it feels like to choke someone to death. Right now he’s getting “electricals” but in the back of his mind he’s recalling that Lil Jenny lives in this house, and she’s real pretty and he’s GOING TO RAPE AND KILL THAT BITCH!!! > > Seriously, if we have to accept that Lil Tommy is just in the house trying to gather some loot to help Mother, why not my scenario? How is Mr. Homeowner, woken up at 3 A.M. by someone illegally in his home, supposed to know the difference without your magical mindreading powers? No - it’s not mindreading. It’s accepting the fact that not everyone who comes into your house to rifle your drawers is a bad ass mofo with ill intent but possibly little more than a kid making a bad choice. I think some of you in here are showing a wilful negligence in your refusal to accept that life is not black and white, made up of goodies and baddies. I also would hope that deep down most of you can kinda acknowledge that taking a human life is a serious matter and not something you could easily come to terms with. ---
**Author:** ![E-Sabbath](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/e19adc/32.png) [@E-Sabbath](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/E-Sabbath)\ **Post date:** [January 25, 2009, 10:50pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/ok-if-i-shouldnt-_shoot_-the-intruder-then/482060/884 "2009-01-25T22:50:42Z")
Why would flat tires stop anyone from stealing a car? It’ll shred the tires and the rims, but you can drive just fine on flats. And if it’s a stolen car, who cares how much damage the tires take, long as you can sell it later. Criminals should stop being bad or end up dead, Ivan says. Okay. I can accept that. Criminals should stop being bad. ---
**Author:** ![Scumpup](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/ce73a5/32.png) [@Scumpup](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Scumpup)\ **Post date:** [January 25, 2009, 10:50pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/ok-if-i-shouldnt-_shoot_-the-intruder-then/482060/885 "2009-01-25T22:50:49Z")
Breaking into an occupied home is a serious matter. Doing something like that could get a fellow killed. ---
**Author:** ![1stFusilier](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/1/58956e/32.png) [@1stFusilier](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/1stFusilier)\ **Post date:** [January 25, 2009, 10:51pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/ok-if-i-shouldnt-_shoot_-the-intruder-then/482060/886 "2009-01-25T22:51:56Z")
> [@Cuckoorex](#): > > (do not flame, do not flame) > > OK. Let’s review. You said it’s better to shoot the tires than the thief. I say it’s better to shoot anywhere near the thief than to shoot the tires. At no point did I say that it was preferable to shoot the prison kitten in this situation. AT NO POINT. If I am going to get the same reaction from the prison kitten by shooting at the wall or the tires, OF FUCKING COURSE I’m not going to shoot the tires! Actually you said it would only be worth shooting the tyres if the thief was in front of them thereby implying it was better to shoot the thief than the tyres. W/E I don’t think I’m going to get any reasonable debate from you on this one. Thanks for resisting the urge to flame though. ---
**Author:** ![ivan\_astikov](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/i/58f4c7/32.png) [@ivan\_astikov](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/ivan_astikov)\ **Post date:** [January 25, 2009, 10:56pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/ok-if-i-shouldnt-_shoot_-the-intruder-then/482060/887 "2009-01-25T22:56:35Z")
> [@Scumpup](#): > > You really need to disabuse yourself of the notion that I am going to allow criminals to act with impunity, especially in my own home, when I am capable of doing something about it. The law here in the US agrees with me. Do you have home security besides your trusty weapons, or do you think your experience as a LEO means anything else is an unneccessary expense? Do you think your years as a LEO hardened your heart to the things going on around you, at all? ---
**Author:** ![Scumpup](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/ce73a5/32.png) [@Scumpup](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Scumpup)\ **Post date:** [January 25, 2009, 10:58pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/ok-if-i-shouldnt-_shoot_-the-intruder-then/482060/888 "2009-01-25T22:58:37Z")
Do you think there is such a thing as staying out of other people’s homes or does your experience as a criminal mean anything else is passing up free stuff? ---
**Author:** ![Cuckoorex](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/ad7895/32.png) [@Cuckoorex](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Cuckoorex)\ **Post date:** [January 25, 2009, 10:59pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/ok-if-i-shouldnt-_shoot_-the-intruder-then/482060/889 "2009-01-25T22:59:48Z")
> [@1stFusilier](#): > > Actually you said it would only be worth shooting the tyres if the thief was in front of them thereby implying it was better to shoot the thief than the tyres. Bullshit. I NEVER said that it “would only be worth shooting the tires if the thief was in front of them.” NEVER. That’s how you chose to interpret my statement. Maybe I should have been more explicit in saying which side of the tires/thief question I was on, since even now you don’t seem to get it, after I said over the next several posts that car theft was a far different scenario than a home invasion and that it was preferable to shoot near the thief to hopefully scare them off rather than shoot the thief, and that if shooting the wall has the same effect on the thief as shooting the tires, IT WOULD BE IDIOTIC TO SHOOT THE TIRES. ---
**Author:** ![Cuckoorex](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/ad7895/32.png) [@Cuckoorex](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Cuckoorex)\ **Post date:** [January 25, 2009, 11:03pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/ok-if-i-shouldnt-_shoot_-the-intruder-then/482060/890 "2009-01-25T23:03:02Z")
In other news, if it looks like someone is trying to steal your TiVo, you should dump water on it to cause it to short out, and if someone is trying to steal your wallet you should throw acid on it to destroy it. ---
**Author:** ![ivan\_astikov](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/i/58f4c7/32.png) [@ivan\_astikov](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/ivan_astikov)\ **Post date:** [January 25, 2009, 11:05pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/ok-if-i-shouldnt-_shoot_-the-intruder-then/482060/891 "2009-01-25T23:05:54Z")
> [@Cuckoorex](#): > > Bullshit. I NEVER said that it “would only be worth shooting the tires if the thief was in front of them.” NEVER. That’s how you chose to interpret my statement. Maybe I should have been more explicit in saying which side of the tires/thief question I was on, since even now you don’t seem to get it, after I said over the next several posts that car theft was a far different scenario than a home invasion and that it was preferable to shoot near the thief to hopefully scare them off rather than shoot the thief, and that if shooting the wall has the same effect on the thief as shooting the tires, IT WOULD BE IDIOTIC TO SHOOT THE TIRES. If the prison-kitty-sub-human-mutant was behind the driving wheel with the door closed and ready to screech off in a cloud of smoke and burnt rubber, would you aim at your tyres or through the glass at the driver? Ooh, I bet that’s a tricky one! ---
**Author:** ![Cuckoorex](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/ad7895/32.png) [@Cuckoorex](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Cuckoorex)\ **Post date:** [January 25, 2009, 11:13pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/ok-if-i-shouldnt-_shoot_-the-intruder-then/482060/892 "2009-01-25T23:13:03Z")
> [@ivan\_astikov](#): > > If the prison-kitty-sub-human-mutant was behind the driving wheel with the door closed and ready to screech off in a cloud of smoke and burnt rubber, would you aim at your tyres or through the glass at the driver? Ooh, I bet that’s a tricky one! It’s not tricky at all. If he’s already in the process of driving off, I just call the cops. Shooting to scare him at that point is without merit because he now has an even speedier method of getting away, and it’s not like he’s going to abandon the car to run away on foot, is he? ---
**Author:** ![ivan\_astikov](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/i/58f4c7/32.png) [@ivan\_astikov](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/ivan_astikov)\ **Post date:** [January 25, 2009, 11:14pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/ok-if-i-shouldnt-_shoot_-the-intruder-then/482060/893 "2009-01-25T23:14:21Z")
> [@Cuckoorex](#): > > In other news, if it looks like someone is trying to steal your TiVo, you should dump water on it to cause it to short out, and if someone is trying to steal your wallet you should throw acid on it to destroy it. It’s simpler than that. Just make sure those light-fingered, cold-hearted scumbags can’t get near your stuff. Also, don’t wave it in the face of the greedy, callous bastards or you are going to get taxed. To hear you talk about the depraved, immoral hordes you have to be on constant guard against, I’m surprised US citizens aren’t leaving in droves. Btw, have any of you ultimate pessimists come up with any figures stating how likely this nightmare fear of yours is to happen? ---
**Author:** ![Scumpup](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/ce73a5/32.png) [@Scumpup](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Scumpup)\ **Post date:** [January 25, 2009, 11:23pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/ok-if-i-shouldnt-_shoot_-the-intruder-then/482060/894 "2009-01-25T23:23:00Z")
> [@Scumpup](#): > > Do you think there is such a thing as staying out of other people’s homes or does your experience as a criminal mean anything else is passing up free stuff? You didn’t answer this. ---
**Author:** ![Una\_Persson](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/una_persson/32/346_2.png) [@Una\_Persson](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Una_Persson)\ **Post date:** [January 25, 2009, 11:23pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/ok-if-i-shouldnt-_shoot_-the-intruder-then/482060/895 "2009-01-25T23:23:21Z")
1. Shooting out the tires is a television scenario, and one which risks collateral damage to bystanders and even yourself (and I say this having seen people hit by shrapnel from shooting a truck tire, and having been hit by a shotgun pellet myself from a person shooting a tire). 2. As I was indirectly informed in writing in my CCW class by the Attorney General of my State, shooting _towards_ someone can be nearly the same as shooting them. This scenario came up in class - if a sociopathic robber is stealing your car, and you fire a “warning shot” towards them, with no intent to hit, it can be treated under the law very harshly. They printed in large-font: “THERE ARE NO SUCH THINGS AS WARNING SHOTS” on the documents I got. 3. **ivan** , your experience and knowledge from your viewpoint as a one-time career criminal are very enlightening, but your arguments if anything are also showing that your thought processes towards the sanctity of other people’s homes and possessions are different than those of most people here, or most people I have met IRL. It sort of indicates, from a reading of this thread, that you would very easily return to such a life if you had to or wanted to, with no major moral qualms, and would tend to blame the victims for not putting up better defenses to you. If you don’t _intend_ to convey this, and/or in fact don’t feel this way, you might think about how you are presenting your message here. ---
**Author:** ![Scumpup](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/ce73a5/32.png) [@Scumpup](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Scumpup)\ **Post date:** [January 25, 2009, 11:27pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/ok-if-i-shouldnt-_shoot_-the-intruder-then/482060/896 "2009-01-25T23:27:04Z")
[US crime statistics by state.](http://www.disastercenter.com/crime/) ---
**Author:** ![ivan\_astikov](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/i/58f4c7/32.png) [@ivan\_astikov](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/ivan_astikov)\ **Post date:** [January 25, 2009, 11:28pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/ok-if-i-shouldnt-_shoot_-the-intruder-then/482060/897 "2009-01-25T23:28:45Z")
[Tips on how to avoid being robbed](http://www.nononsenseselfdefense.com/robbery_avoidance.html) > [@](#): > > Robbery, by definition, is to take something from an individual by direct use of, or threat of, violence. It is “give it up or else.” This is different from theft, which is committed through stealth (i.e. a pickpocket) or when you are not present (i.e. burglary). Aha, so there is a difference! > [@](#): > > It cannot be stressed enough that with robbery the criminal has come prepared to commit violence. There is no “warm up time” for the criminal. When he walks up to you he has already escalated it to the point where using physical violence makes sense to him. Hmm…with that in mind you’d think the best thing was to limit the chance of encounters occurring. I wonder how you’d best achieve that? ---
**Author:** ![Scumpup](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/ce73a5/32.png) [@Scumpup](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Scumpup)\ **Post date:** [January 25, 2009, 11:30pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/ok-if-i-shouldnt-_shoot_-the-intruder-then/482060/898 "2009-01-25T23:30:23Z")
Oh! Do let’s try to move the goalposts when our little bottom is starting to smart from getting kicked! ---
**Author:** ![Cuckoorex](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/ad7895/32.png) [@Cuckoorex](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Cuckoorex)\ **Post date:** [January 25, 2009, 11:35pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/ok-if-i-shouldnt-_shoot_-the-intruder-then/482060/899 "2009-01-25T23:35:19Z")
> [@ivan\_astikov](#): > > Btw, have any of you ultimate pessimists come up with any figures stating how likely this nightmare fear of yours is to happen? It doesn’t have to happen a certain number of times. Statistically speaking, most thieves are probably nonviolent. The homeowner woken up at 3 a.m. by the prison kitten doesn’t have the luxury of looking up the stats on the internet and then using some sort of personality trait detector or some kind of…tells, to figure out if this is one of the violent kind or nonviolent kind. Hell, even if he DOES ask the prison kitten if he intends harm and the prison kitten says, “no, I just want your TiVo,” he may be lying. Richard Speck told his victims he just wanted money…just before he brutally raped and killed 8 nurses: > [@](#): > > At 11:00 PM on July 13, 1966, Speck broke into a townhouse located at 2319 East 100th Street in the Jeffery Manor neighborhood of Chicago. It was functioning as a dormitory for several young student nurses, some of whom were Filipinas. Armed with only a knife (the Illinois Supreme Court opinion recounting the facts of the case reports that the defendant appeared at the door of the townhouse holding a gun) — he terrorized the young women, including Gloria Davy, Patricia Matusek, Nina Schmale, Pamela Wilkening, Suzanne Farris, Mary Ann Jordan, Merlita Gargullo, and Valentina Pasion. Speck, who later claimed he was high on both alcohol and drugs, may have originally planned to commit a routine burglary. Speck held the women in the house for hours, methodically leading them out of the room one by one, stabbing or strangling them to death, then finally raping and strangling his last victim, Gloria Davy. Only one woman, Cora (Corazon) Amurao, escaped because she managed to wriggle under a bed while Speck was out of the room with one of his victims. Speck may have lost count, or he may have known there were eight women living in the townhouse but had been unaware that a ninth student nurse was spending the night there. Amurao stayed hidden until almost 6 AM. When she emerged, she climbed out of her northeast bedroom window onto a ledge screaming, “They’re all dead! All my friends are dead!” ---
**Author:** ![Cuckoorex](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/ad7895/32.png) [@Cuckoorex](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Cuckoorex)\ **Post date:** [January 25, 2009, 11:36pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/ok-if-i-shouldnt-_shoot_-the-intruder-then/482060/900 "2009-01-25T23:36:48Z")
> [@ivan\_astikov](#): > > [Tips on how to avoid being robbed](http://www.nononsenseselfdefense.com/robbery_avoidance.html) > Aha, so there is a difference! > > Hmm…with that in mind you’d think the best thing was to limit the chance of encounters occurring. I wonder how you’d best achieve that? Live in a fallout shelter with no possessions, obviously. Or move to Mars. Who says they wouldn’t want to minimize the chances of it happening? The scenario is that it IS happening. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/ok-if-i-shouldnt-_shoot_-the-intruder-then/482060.md?page=44) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/ok-if-i-shouldnt-_shoot_-the-intruder-then/482060.md?page=46)