# Ok, if I shouldn't \_shoot\_ the intruder, then...? **URL:** \ **Category:** Great Debates\ **Created:** [January 19, 2009, 11:15pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/ok-if-i-shouldnt-_shoot_-the-intruder-then/482060 "2009-01-19T23:15:40Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 46
**Author:** ![ivan\_astikov](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/i/58f4c7/32.png) [@ivan\_astikov](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/ivan_astikov)\ **Post date:** [January 25, 2009, 11:37pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/ok-if-i-shouldnt-_shoot_-the-intruder-then/482060/901 "2009-01-25T23:37:58Z")
> [@Scumpup](#): > > You didn’t answer this. After being released from the juvenile care home I was in, I had a few low-paying labouring jobs before realising I could make more from one nights creeping about than I could in a couple of months of working. I didn’t need my arm twisting when the opportunity came around. And my time with other juvenile criminals taught me only one thing. Don’t. Get. Caught. And for a long time that was how I ticked. I’m not proud of it, only accepting. But, this thread isn’t about me. ---
**Author:** ![ivan\_astikov](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/i/58f4c7/32.png) [@ivan\_astikov](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/ivan_astikov)\ **Post date:** [January 25, 2009, 11:47pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/ok-if-i-shouldnt-_shoot_-the-intruder-then/482060/902 "2009-01-25T23:47:13Z")
> [@Cuckoorex](#): > > Live in a fallout shelter with no possessions, obviously. Or move to Mars. Who says they wouldn’t want to minimize the chances of it happening? The scenario is that it IS happening. The truth is it _shouldn’t be_. And not because criminals should all turn over a new leaf and become constructive members of society, but because you have the means and technology to make the scenario completely impossible, but you believe your family and home is best protected by you and your guns. Am I right, or am I right? ---
**Author:** ![Cuckoorex](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/ad7895/32.png) [@Cuckoorex](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Cuckoorex)\ **Post date:** [January 25, 2009, 11:54pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/ok-if-i-shouldnt-_shoot_-the-intruder-then/482060/903 "2009-01-25T23:54:19Z")
> [@ivan\_astikov](#): > > The truth is it _shouldn’t be_. And not because criminals should all turn over a new leaf and become constructive members of society, but because you have the means and technology to make the scenario completely impossible, but you believe your family and home is best protected by you and your guns. Am I right, or am I right? You said earlier that you got a thrill out of breaking into places. Regardless of what kind of locks or security systems someone has in place, the scenario that is presented is STILL that SOMEONE BROKE INTO YOUR HOUSE AT NIGHT. There is no retcon available here. The scenario is that someone has broken into your house at night. I’ll type it again. Regardless of what kind of locks or security systems someone has in place, the scenario that is presented is STILL that SOMEONE BROKE INTO YOUR HOUSE AT NIGHT. Maybe the security system is faulty. Maybe the thief was able to bypass it somehow. Maybe Judy forgot to set it before she zonked out on the couch while watching the late show. IT DOESN’T MATTER. The scenario is that SOMEONE HAS BROKEN IN. If you want to keep on saying, “preventive, preventive” blah blah blah you might as well say that the best way to prevent the scenario is to go back in time and sterilize the parents of all prison kittens prior to their conception. ---
**Author:** ![Cuckoorex](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/ad7895/32.png) [@Cuckoorex](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Cuckoorex)\ **Post date:** [January 25, 2009, 11:55pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/ok-if-i-shouldnt-_shoot_-the-intruder-then/482060/904 "2009-01-25T23:55:30Z")
And another thing; I rent. I have two doors with locks and lockable windows, but if someone really wanted to, they could probably get in with a little effort. I have no alarm system in place and I’m not allowed to install one even if I wanted to. ---
**Author:** ![Todderbob](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/e47774/32.png) [@Todderbob](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Todderbob)\ **Post date:** [January 26, 2009, 12:03am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/ok-if-i-shouldnt-_shoot_-the-intruder-then/482060/905 "2009-01-26T00:03:46Z")
> [@1stFusilier](#): > > Shooting the tyres out would have exactly the same effect. Cars still drive with flat tires. And I have to spend money on new tires. > [@ivan\_astikov](#): > > So, you’d rather shoot the thief than your tyres, to prevent your car being stolen? Yes. > [@ivan\_astikov](#): > > What’s wrong with firing to scare 1st, shooting the tyres out if he doesn’t scare easily( or is drugged out of his gourd), and _then_ considering shooting the perp? 1. (Shooting to Scare): I don’t fire my gun to scare. I fire my gun to eliminate a threat. If the sight of the gun is not scary enough, obviously the person doesn’t understand what a gun can do, and shooting it an an inanimate object will likely not get the point across. 2. Because tires are difficult to hit, and I risk injuring myself (riccochette), or someone else (this goes doubly so for a warning shot). 3. Because I can skip steps 1 and 2 and have the same effect. ---
**Author:** ![Todderbob](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/e47774/32.png) [@Todderbob](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Todderbob)\ **Post date:** [January 26, 2009, 12:05am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/ok-if-i-shouldnt-_shoot_-the-intruder-then/482060/906 "2009-01-26T00:05:19Z")
> [@ivan\_astikov](#): > > Okay, I get you. You don’t give a shit about anything but you and yours, but you expect other people to give a shit about it. > > Because, it’s far easier to remove a criminal with a bullet, than it is to reform them with a little compassion and a lot of effort. No, it’s far easier to assure your safety with a bullet, than risk being injured by a potentially armed (already) felon in my home. ---
**Author:** ![Cuckoorex](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/ad7895/32.png) [@Cuckoorex](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Cuckoorex)\ **Post date:** [January 26, 2009, 12:05am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/ok-if-i-shouldnt-_shoot_-the-intruder-then/482060/907 "2009-01-26T00:05:56Z")
Seriously, ivan, if someone asked you what you should do if you witness an auto accident which produces serious injuries and there is no one else around to help, is your answer going to be, “Well, I would take measures to ensure that the accident would never have taken place”? ---
**Author:** ![Todderbob](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/e47774/32.png) [@Todderbob](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Todderbob)\ **Post date:** [January 26, 2009, 12:09am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/ok-if-i-shouldnt-_shoot_-the-intruder-then/482060/908 "2009-01-26T00:09:54Z")
> [@1stFusilier](#): > > Who’s asking you to bond with the intruder? Lets keep it real please. > > Likewise shooting a stranger dead isn’t going to do much for a happy family atmosphere once the blood’s been washed up and forensics have left and the police investigation is over. Neither will letting your child be potentially injured or raped. _“Daddy, why didn’t you protect me from the intruder in our home? You heard him in the living room but didn’t stop him. I went to go get a cup of water and he hit me in the head. Now I’ve got a concussion! Although I am surprisingly well spoken for a little girl who’s just received a blow to the head.”_ Okay, that’s somewhat overly-descriptive, but you get the jist. ---
**Author:** ![Scumpup](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/ce73a5/32.png) [@Scumpup](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Scumpup)\ **Post date:** [January 26, 2009, 12:13am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/ok-if-i-shouldnt-_shoot_-the-intruder-then/482060/909 "2009-01-26T00:13:02Z")
> [@ivan\_astikov](#): > > After being released from the juvenile care home I was in, I had a few low-paying labouring jobs before realising I could make more from one nights creeping about than I could in a couple of months of working. I didn’t need my arm twisting when the opportunity came around. And my time with other juvenile criminals taught me only one thing. Don’t. Get. Caught. And for a long time that was how I ticked. I’m not proud of it, only accepting. > > But, this thread isn’t about me. …And I accept that I will shoot an intruder in my home who does not immediately surrender or flee. ---
**Author:** ![ivan\_astikov](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/i/58f4c7/32.png) [@ivan\_astikov](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/ivan_astikov)\ **Post date:** [January 26, 2009, 12:13am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/ok-if-i-shouldnt-_shoot_-the-intruder-then/482060/910 "2009-01-26T00:13:42Z")
> [@Cuckoorex](#): > > You said earlier that you got a thrill out of breaking into places. Regardless of what kind of locks or security systems someone has in place, the scenario that is presented is STILL that SOMEONE BROKE INTO YOUR HOUSE AT NIGHT. There is no retcon available here. The scenario is that someone has broken into your house at night. I’ll type it again. Regardless of what kind of locks or security systems someone has in place, the scenario that is presented is STILL that SOMEONE BROKE INTO YOUR HOUSE AT NIGHT. Maybe the security system is faulty. Maybe the thief was able to bypass it somehow. Maybe Judy forgot to set it before she zonked out on the couch while watching the late show. IT DOESN’T MATTER. The scenario is that SOMEONE HAS BROKEN IN. If you want to keep on saying, “preventive, preventive” blah blah blah you might as well say that the best way to prevent the scenario is to go back in time and sterilize the parents of all prison kittens prior to their conception. > [@Cuckoorex](#): > > And another thing; I rent. I have two doors with locks and lockable windows, but if someone really wanted to, they could probably get in with a little effort. I have no alarm system in place and I’m not allowed to install one even if I wanted to. Okay, so you are in a higher risk group than Mr Belinsky next door, who has a top of the range alarm with motion detector and auto-cctv recording(complete with loudspeaker announcement “Your actions are now being recorded!”), and your worse fears have come true - is it your job just to protect you and yours, or are you obliged to serve the greater good and ensure the arrest of said future “prison kitty”? Say you awoke to find the [del]suspect[/del]soon to be accused kitty walking out your front door holding your tv, what would your response be? ---
**Author:** ![Todderbob](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/e47774/32.png) [@Todderbob](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Todderbob)\ **Post date:** [January 26, 2009, 12:20am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/ok-if-i-shouldnt-_shoot_-the-intruder-then/482060/911 "2009-01-26T00:20:41Z")
> [@ivan\_astikov](#): > > It’s simpler than that. Just make sure those light-fingered, cold-hearted scumbags can’t get near your stuff. And those light-fingered, cold-hearted scumbags are going to be a bit colder after > [@ivan\_astikov](#): > > Also, don’t wave it in the face of the greedy, callous bastards or you are going to get taxed. So it’s a tax now? It’s not a felony? That’s good to know. > [@ivan\_astikov](#): > > To hear you talk about the depraved, immoral hordes you have to be on constant guard against, I’m surprised US citizens aren’t leaving in droves. Actually, home invasions and burglaries while people are home are far **less** common in the USA than Europe. For the reasons that we’re discussing in this thread. So, it appears that whether or not you think it’s a good thing, it puts home invasions to be far lower, despite the fact that other types of crime are higher. ---
**Author:** ![Grumman](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/g/43a26b/32.png) [@Grumman](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Grumman)\ **Post date:** [January 26, 2009, 12:24am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/ok-if-i-shouldnt-_shoot_-the-intruder-then/482060/912 "2009-01-26T00:24:30Z")
> [@ivan\_astikov](#): > > The truth is it _shouldn’t be_. And not because criminals should all turn over a new leaf and become constructive members of society, but because you have the means and technology to make the scenario completely impossible, but you believe your family and home is best protected by you and your guns. Am I right, or am I right? You are wrong. There is a difference between “more difficult” and “completely impossible” to breach, and the sort of passive defenses available to most people are going to fall into the former category. So if a criminal gets past that first line of defense, why shouldn’t the use of a weapon be on the table? ---
**Author:** ![Todderbob](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/e47774/32.png) [@Todderbob](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Todderbob)\ **Post date:** [January 26, 2009, 12:25am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/ok-if-i-shouldnt-_shoot_-the-intruder-then/482060/913 "2009-01-26T00:25:15Z")
> [@ivan\_astikov](#): > > Okay, so you are in a higher risk group than Mr Belinsky next door, who has a top of the range alarm with motion detector and auto-cctv recording(complete with loudspeaker announcement “Your actions are now being recorded!”), and your worse fears have come true - is it your job just to protect you and yours, or are you obliged to serve the greater good and ensure the arrest of said future “prison kitty”? Say you awoke to find the [del]suspect[/del]soon to be accused kitty walking out your front door holding your tv, what would your response be? Personally, I call the cops. It’s not worth it to me to try to apprehend him. However, if he’s in my house with the Television, I tell him to freeze. If he’s in my house without the TV I tell him to freeze. If he moves, gets shot until he stops being a threat. ETA: So, where are the goalposts now? ---
**Author:** ![ivan\_astikov](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/i/58f4c7/32.png) [@ivan\_astikov](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/ivan_astikov)\ **Post date:** [January 26, 2009, 12:30am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/ok-if-i-shouldnt-_shoot_-the-intruder-then/482060/914 "2009-01-26T00:30:18Z")
> [@Todderbob](#): > > So, it appears that whether or not you think it’s a good thing, it puts home invasions to be far lower, despite the fact that other types of crime are higher. So, you’re solving nothing really, just sending them onto the next opportunity. That must give you a lot of satisfaction. I can understand why you want to kill those pesky [del]sub-humans[/del]criminals so readily now. I can almost imagine you cleaning your weapon down and reloading as the mother/wife/child of the now dead ‘prison kitty’ are grieving. ---
**Author:** ![ivan\_astikov](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/i/58f4c7/32.png) [@ivan\_astikov](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/ivan_astikov)\ **Post date:** [January 26, 2009, 12:34am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/ok-if-i-shouldnt-_shoot_-the-intruder-then/482060/915 "2009-01-26T00:34:06Z")
> [@Todderbob](#): > > Personally, I call the cops. > > It’s not worth it to me to try to apprehend him. > However, if he’s in my house with the Television, I tell him to freeze. If he’s in my house without the TV I tell him to freeze. > If he moves, gets shot until he stops being a threat. > ETA: So, where are the goalposts now? And if he says to you “I’m gonna walk out now and if you try to stop me, you are going to have to shoot me!”; are you going to shoot him, or put it down to experience and phone the cops as soon as he’s left?? ---
**Author:** ![Todderbob](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/e47774/32.png) [@Todderbob](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Todderbob)\ **Post date:** [January 26, 2009, 12:35am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/ok-if-i-shouldnt-_shoot_-the-intruder-then/482060/916 "2009-01-26T00:35:04Z")
> [@ivan\_astikov](#): > > So, you’re solving nothing really, just sending them onto the next opportunity. > > That must give you a lot of satisfaction. > > I can understand why you want to kill those pesky [del]sub-humans[/del]criminals so readily now. > > I can almost imagine you cleaning your weapon down and reloading as the mother/wife/child of the now dead ‘prison kitty’ are grieving. Actually, I once I fired the weapon, since the police would be on the way (Never hang up while you’re in the middle of a crime), I’d probably unload it and hand it to them. They’d want it as evidence. Once it was returned to me, however, I would most certainly be cleaning it. Regardless of whether or not the family of the diseased is grieving. And I don’t **want** to kill them, as I’ve stated multiple times (and you’ve, multiple times ignored), I want to immediately and efficiently end the threat to myself and my loved ones. ---
**Author:** ![Todderbob](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/e47774/32.png) [@Todderbob](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Todderbob)\ **Post date:** [January 26, 2009, 12:36am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/ok-if-i-shouldnt-_shoot_-the-intruder-then/482060/917 "2009-01-26T00:36:05Z")
> [@ivan\_astikov](#): > > And if he says to you “I’m gonna walk out now and if you try to stop me, you are going to have to shoot me!”; are you going to shoot him, or put it down to experience and phone the cops as soon as he’s left?? Actually, as I’ve stated, multiple times throughout the thread, as soon as I heard a noise, I’d call the cops. I would tell him to do it with his hands in plain sight, because if I thought he was a threat, at all, I was going to shoot him. ---
**Author:** ![ivan\_astikov](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/i/58f4c7/32.png) [@ivan\_astikov](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/ivan_astikov)\ **Post date:** [January 26, 2009, 12:47am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/ok-if-i-shouldnt-_shoot_-the-intruder-then/482060/918 "2009-01-26T00:47:14Z")
> [@Todderbob](#): > > Actually, as I’ve stated, multiple times throughout the thread, as soon as I heard a noise, I’d call the cops. > > I would tell him to do it with his hands in plain sight, because if I thought he was a threat, at all, I was going to shoot him. I’d just like to point out that the fear of impending incarceration is at its highest from the moment of apprehension up until the moment of arrest; then a sense of inevitability kicks in. That heightened adrenaline surge can make a prison kitty do desperate things to escape the clutches of the evil jailer, and the natural reaction is flight, not fight. So, if you _really_ don’t want to shoot and the kitty hasn’t got its claws bared, don’t stand between it and an exit. ---
**Author:** ![Cuckoorex](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/ad7895/32.png) [@Cuckoorex](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Cuckoorex)\ **Post date:** [January 26, 2009, 1:16am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/ok-if-i-shouldnt-_shoot_-the-intruder-then/482060/919 "2009-01-26T01:16:06Z")
So now we’re supposed to weep because the prison kitten has a family? So what? Lots of people have a family. If someone broke into prison kitten’s home at night with family there, and prison kitten has a gun, do you think he’s going to be concerned about prison kitten #2’s family? Maybe the prison kitten’s father is a serial rapist and his mom is a crack whore. I don’t know and I don’t care. If they’re weeping over their dead son, they have only their dead son to blame, because HE CHOSE TO INVADE A HOME. Tough shit! I’m not going to construct an imaginary scenario that makes him into the thief with a heart of gold. ---
**Author:** ![billfish678](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/7bcc69/32.png) [@billfish678](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/billfish678)\ **Post date:** [January 26, 2009, 1:34am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/ok-if-i-shouldnt-_shoot_-the-intruder-then/482060/920 "2009-01-26T01:34:07Z")
> [@Todderbob](#): > > Cars still drive with flat tires. > > And I have to spend money on new tires. > > Yes. > > 1. (Shooting to Scare): I don’t fire my gun to scare. I fire my gun to eliminate a threat. If the sight of the gun is not scary enough, obviously the person doesn’t understand what a gun can do, and shooting it an an inanimate object will likely not get the point across. > > . It worked for me. But it was unusual circumstances as well as the fact I was willing to take the small chance that I would hit and kill the guy. NEVER tell a person who is pointing a gun at you that they don’t have the balls to pull the trigger 🙂 He uhhh, got the message that I WASNT fucking around. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/ok-if-i-shouldnt-_shoot_-the-intruder-then/482060.md?page=45) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/ok-if-i-shouldnt-_shoot_-the-intruder-then/482060.md?page=47)