# Ok, if I shouldn't \_shoot\_ the intruder, then...? **URL:** \ **Category:** Great Debates\ **Created:** [January 19, 2009, 11:15pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/ok-if-i-shouldnt-_shoot_-the-intruder-then/482060 "2009-01-19T23:15:40Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 49
**Author:** ![E-Sabbath](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/e19adc/32.png) [@E-Sabbath](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/E-Sabbath)\ **Post date:** [January 26, 2009, 2:20pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/ok-if-i-shouldnt-_shoot_-the-intruder-then/482060/961 "2009-01-26T14:20:41Z")
> [@ivan\_astikov](#): > > And talking of criminal mind-sets, a Lucky Luciano quote; > “Inside every honest citizen there is a felon who they are just too cowardly to let out.” So… even more reason to shoot the prison kitten? ---
**Author:** ![ivan\_astikov](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/i/58f4c7/32.png) [@ivan\_astikov](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/ivan_astikov)\ **Post date:** [January 26, 2009, 2:28pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/ok-if-i-shouldnt-_shoot_-the-intruder-then/482060/962 "2009-01-26T14:28:14Z")
> [@E-Sabbath](#): > > So… even more reason to shoot the prison kitten? That’s it! Set your inner criminal free. I’ve been looking at this totally the wrong way. Load up, and fire away. Come over to the darkside…we ain’t got cookies, but the hours are great and the tax incentives are unbeatable. 🙂 ---
**Author:** ![tomndebb](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/b9e5f3/32.png) [@tomndebb](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/tomndebb)\ **Post date:** [January 26, 2009, 3:42pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/ok-if-i-shouldnt-_shoot_-the-intruder-then/482060/963 "2009-01-26T15:42:54Z")
> [@ivan\_astikov](#): > > We don’t. Which is why I say keep them out in the first place and avoid making a wrong decision. > [@ivan\_astikov](#): > > Have you ever noticed how inventive thieves can be? You contradict yourself. If thieves are all that inventive, you will be unable to keep them out, anyway. So which is it? ---
**Author:** ![ivan\_astikov](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/i/58f4c7/32.png) [@ivan\_astikov](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/ivan_astikov)\ **Post date:** [January 26, 2009, 4:58pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/ok-if-i-shouldnt-_shoot_-the-intruder-then/482060/964 "2009-01-26T16:58:10Z")
> [@tomndebb](#): > > You contradict yourself. If thieves are all that inventive, you will be unable to keep them out, anyway. > > So which is it? Their inventiveness rarely crosses the boundary line of hard work unless there is a potentially large pay-off. I know, it’s another failing of the criminal class. ---
**Author:** ![E-Sabbath](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/e19adc/32.png) [@E-Sabbath](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/E-Sabbath)\ **Post date:** [January 26, 2009, 5:13pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/ok-if-i-shouldnt-_shoot_-the-intruder-then/482060/965 "2009-01-26T17:13:28Z")
If the felon is within every citizen, then clearly, little Timmy in my kitchen is letting his inner felon out. So I shouldn’t worry about shooting him, either. ---
**Author:** ![Todderbob](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/e47774/32.png) [@Todderbob](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Todderbob)\ **Post date:** [January 26, 2009, 6:02pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/ok-if-i-shouldnt-_shoot_-the-intruder-then/482060/966 "2009-01-26T18:02:06Z")
> [@ivan\_astikov](#): > > And here’s that Wild West mentality I was mentioning earlier. You seem to have come on a long way from then, eh? Oh man, was that a roundabout american joke?! Nice! > [@ivan\_astikov](#): > > Look, your whole argument is based on the “Lions and tigers and killer clowns, oh my!” idea that every burglar/petty thief/prison kitty out there, wants to kill your family and you are just protecting them to the best of your ability. It’s all a mighty big “IF”\* that if you were honest, you know could be avoided.( The fact that these events still occur, albeit less frequently, means your guns are not deterring the either stupidly desperate or just plain murderous! Exactly the people you SHOULD be fearing. Any stats on how these crimes were committed, anyone? Such extreme crimes are surely recorded and studied, aren’t they?) Or at least avoided to the best of your financial ability. But, it’s obviousl I’ll never make some of you recognise the validity of my claim, because you are so committed to the idea of solving problems with your guns. > > - “IF” the bad guy has already breached your best defences. And most of you have not even stated whether you have the bare minimum of defences. And that doesn’t include having doors left unlocked, windows left unopen, and curtains drawn presenting an Aladdin’s Palace for the potential [del]sneak thief[/del]family raper. Actually, it’s the assumption that someone who is already breaking and entering into an occupied home, rather than an unoccupied home, more likely has something sinister in mind. Had they chosen to break into an unoccupied home, I would not have shot, or even drawn on them. Why? Because I was not there, there was no potential risk to me. ---
**Author:** ![Todderbob](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/e47774/32.png) [@Todderbob](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Todderbob)\ **Post date:** [January 26, 2009, 6:03pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/ok-if-i-shouldnt-_shoot_-the-intruder-then/482060/967 "2009-01-26T18:03:32Z")
> [@ivan\_astikov](#): > > Well the law is circumventing its own process by allowing its citizens to be judge, jury and executioner, when they haven’t taken adequate security measures. The law isn’t allowing them to be judge, nor jury, nor executioner. It’s allowing them the right to self defense. > [@ivan\_astikov](#): > > Now come on, as an ex-cop, tell the readers what their minimum security requirements should be. That you exist. ---
**Author:** ![Todderbob](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/e47774/32.png) [@Todderbob](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Todderbob)\ **Post date:** [January 26, 2009, 6:07pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/ok-if-i-shouldnt-_shoot_-the-intruder-then/482060/968 "2009-01-26T18:07:29Z")
> [@ivan\_astikov](#): > > I’m suggesting that the reliance on deadly force as a solution against theft alone, by some posters, is possibly symptomatic of a worrying trend in world affairs. And that trend might seem to be being set by your country. You must be missing the part (I can only assume, intentionally), where everyone in this thread has said that deadly force is their last, unfortunate-_but-I-reserve-the-right-anyway_ option? > [@ivan\_astikov](#): > > We don’t. Which is why I say keep them out in the first place and avoid making a wrong decision. Exactly. See, if they make the wrong decision, I can’t know what’s going through their mind. I took all the steps I could to avoid them breaking into my house, I have a nice big door, I have a private abode, I have a lock that **only** my key works in. There is no confusion, they know exactly what they’re doing if they break in. And so do I. I am reserving the right to blow their guts all over the wall. ---
**Author:** ![Grumman](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/g/43a26b/32.png) [@Grumman](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Grumman)\ **Post date:** [January 26, 2009, 6:29pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/ok-if-i-shouldnt-_shoot_-the-intruder-then/482060/969 "2009-01-26T18:29:02Z")
> [@ivan\_astikov](#): > > And talking of criminal mind-sets, a Lucky Luciano quote; > “Inside every honest citizen there is a felon who they are just too cowardly to let out.” “_Cowardly_”? Despite what criminals like yourself or Mr. Luciano might believe, it is not a failing to not hurt others for our own benefit. ---
**Author:** ![1stFusilier](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/1/58956e/32.png) [@1stFusilier](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/1stFusilier)\ **Post date:** [January 26, 2009, 7:06pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/ok-if-i-shouldnt-_shoot_-the-intruder-then/482060/970 "2009-01-26T19:06:49Z")
> [@Todderbob](#): > > You must be missing the part (I can only assume, intentionally), where everyone in this thread has said that deadly force is their last, unfortunate-_but-I-reserve-the-right-anyway_ option? No, everyone has NOT said that. There are definitely _at least_ one or two who still seem to be of the opinion that anyone who B&Es their premises are a sitting duck on the grounds that if they’ve been crazy enough to break into your house then obviously they might be crazy enough to rape your daughter. In fact, one can’t help getting the impression with certain posters that the family thing is just an excuse to pop a few bullets in someone’s ass. So macho and all that. In fact, who could disagree with the last resort option? Unfortunately, it’s barely warranted a mention. ---
**Author:** ![1stFusilier](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/1/58956e/32.png) [@1stFusilier](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/1stFusilier)\ **Post date:** [January 26, 2009, 7:11pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/ok-if-i-shouldnt-_shoot_-the-intruder-then/482060/971 "2009-01-26T19:11:05Z")
> [@Grumman](#): > > “_Cowardly_”? Despite what criminals like yourself or Mr. Luciano might believe, it is not a failing to not hurt others for our own benefit. I do believe the poster in question said somewhere in this thread that his criminal past is behind him. As for your point ‘it is not a failing etc’- the same could be applied in reverse, could it not? As in: Despite what certain gun owners in this thread believe, it is not a failing to not hurt others for our own benefit. ---
**Author:** ![Todderbob](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/e47774/32.png) [@Todderbob](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Todderbob)\ **Post date:** [January 26, 2009, 7:17pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/ok-if-i-shouldnt-_shoot_-the-intruder-then/482060/972 "2009-01-26T19:17:30Z")
> [@1stFusilier](#): > > No, everyone has NOT said that. There are definitely _at least_ one or two who still seem to be of the opinion that anyone who B&Es their premises are a sitting duck on the grounds that if they’ve been crazy enough to break into your house then obviously they might be crazy enough to rape your daughter. > > In fact, one can’t help getting the impression with certain posters that the family thing is just an excuse to pop a few bullets in someone’s ass. So macho and all that. > > In fact, who could disagree with the last resort option? Unfortunately, it’s barely warranted a mention. I’ve been through this entire thread, more than once on most pages, and I can assure you that it **is** posted as a last resort. Its not always referred to that way, for simplicities sake, but if you re-read the thread - from the beginning - you’ll notice that it is repeatedly implied to be used as a last resort. Unfortunately, that last resort, by necessity, comes sooner in some situations than others (due to the layout of the home, number of family members, children in the home, etc). One side of the argument (Ivan), has been trying to paint the other side (… us) as gun-totin’, wild west yearnin’ hicks from the boonies with shotguns and six shooters just waiting in our house for someone to break in, so we can murder them. That’s not the case, obviously, however that hasn’t stopped ivan from, repeatedly, insinuating as much. Have you read the entire thread, **1st**? ---
**Author:** ![E-Sabbath](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/e19adc/32.png) [@E-Sabbath](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/E-Sabbath)\ **Post date:** [January 26, 2009, 7:29pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/ok-if-i-shouldnt-_shoot_-the-intruder-then/482060/973 "2009-01-26T19:29:01Z")
I’m just asking Ivan what’s the problem if someone _happens to be_ a gun-totin’ wild west yearnin’ hick from the boonies with a shotgun. I’ve already established my stand on things. I even went so far as to posit a much less defensible incident, the car situation. I’m not convinced from his side’s words. ---
**Author:** ![Todderbob](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/e47774/32.png) [@Todderbob](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Todderbob)\ **Post date:** [January 26, 2009, 7:32pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/ok-if-i-shouldnt-_shoot_-the-intruder-then/482060/974 "2009-01-26T19:32:27Z")
> [@1stFusilier](#): > > As in: Despite what certain gun owners in this thread believe, it is not a failing to not hurt others for our own benefit. The correct phrasing would be… “_It’s not a failing to harm others in self defense._” ---
**Author:** ![Cuckoorex](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/ad7895/32.png) [@Cuckoorex](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Cuckoorex)\ **Post date:** [January 26, 2009, 7:38pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/ok-if-i-shouldnt-_shoot_-the-intruder-then/482060/975 "2009-01-26T19:38:47Z")
> [@1stFusilier](#): > > As in: Despite what certain gun owners in this thread believe, it is not a failing to not hurt others for our own benefit. A lesson many prison kittens should learn. Fucking hell. Gun owners are not going out, Punisher-style, looking for thieves to shoot. The scenario is that, no matter what locks or home security you may or may not have, someone has broken into your home. **They have decided that it’s not a failing to harm others for their own benefit.** Now get out of here, unless you plan on actually reading the whole damn thread. Your bleeding heart is staining my carpet. ---
**Author:** ![ivan\_astikov](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/i/58f4c7/32.png) [@ivan\_astikov](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/ivan_astikov)\ **Post date:** [January 26, 2009, 7:41pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/ok-if-i-shouldnt-_shoot_-the-intruder-then/482060/976 "2009-01-26T19:41:59Z")
Let’s remind ourselves of the OP. > [@Lumpy](#): > > How does one deal with the following hypothetical scenerio? You’re a legal gun owner. In the middle of the night, you’re awoken by noise from downstairs. You go downstairs with your gun. You surprise a burglar holding your wife’s purse or an expensive piece of electronics. At the sight of you and your gun, the burglar bolts for the door. You haven’t mentioned how the prison kitty gained access, but I’ll assume he hasn’t stumbled in there by accident, seeing as he is holding your wife’s purse. At this moment neither the homeowner or family are under threat…is it really neccessary to shoot your gun in anger at this point? Because we all know you won’t be best pleased to have had your sanctuary violated, and your decision making process will be duly affected. > [@Lumpy](#): > > Now YMMV, but here in Minnesota I’m pretty sure that I would NOT have the legal right to gun them down in the back as they’re fleeing. Minnesota is not a “Castle Doctrine” state; in fact, trespassing is only a misdemeanor, and then only after the intruder has refused a verbal order to leave(!) A home owner is allowed to use “appropriate force” to prevent a felony. Sounds like the right to fire at will isn’t universally accepted among the US public? > [@Lumpy](#): > > Breaking and Entering is a felony, but by some interpretations once they’ve broken in it’s done, so you’re not “preventing” it anymore(!) Ok, they’re stealing my goddamn Tivo, that’s a felony, what’s appropriate force? Let’s say I give chase. Am I allowed to pistol-whip them in the back of the head? Tackle them? If they fight back, **then** am I justified in shooting them? If they make it past my property line have they legally crossed the “goal line”? They have no right to be in your home, but do you have the right to do the police’s work and make a citizens arrest once they are out of it? And if so, would the ends justify the risk? > [@Lumpy](#): > > Broadly speaking then, when armed how does one de-escalate to a lesser degree of force? And **puhleeze** don’t say “it’s just a possession, it isn’t worth someone’s life”. Frankly I think it ought to be worth _their_ life, but for now the law is what it is. That ball is still up in the air. ---
**Author:** ![Todderbob](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/e47774/32.png) [@Todderbob](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Todderbob)\ **Post date:** [January 26, 2009, 7:44pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/ok-if-i-shouldnt-_shoot_-the-intruder-then/482060/977 "2009-01-26T19:44:38Z")
> [@ivan\_astikov](#): > > Let’s remind ourselves of the OP. Lets remind ourselves of the fact that threads follow a **threaded** discussion. Lets remind ourselves that pretty much everyone, thus far, has stated that they wouldn’t fire their weapon if it was possible to verify that they were in no danger. Lets remind ourselves that the OP was 20 pages and almost 1,000 posts ago. ---
**Author:** ![Cuckoorex](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/ad7895/32.png) [@Cuckoorex](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Cuckoorex)\ **Post date:** [January 26, 2009, 7:47pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/ok-if-i-shouldnt-_shoot_-the-intruder-then/482060/978 "2009-01-26T19:47:33Z")
Let’s remind ourselves that ivan is never, ever going to be swayed by any argument whatsoever. You’re wasting your time. ---
**Author:** ![1stFusilier](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/1/58956e/32.png) [@1stFusilier](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/1stFusilier)\ **Post date:** [January 26, 2009, 8:11pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/ok-if-i-shouldnt-_shoot_-the-intruder-then/482060/979 "2009-01-26T20:11:47Z")
> [@Todderbob](#): > > I’ve been through this entire thread, more than once on most pages, and I can assure you that it **is** posted as a last resort. > > Its not always referred to that way, for simplicities sake, but if you re-read the thread - from the beginning - you’ll notice that it is repeatedly implied to be used as a last resort. > > Unfortunately, that last resort, by necessity, comes sooner in some situations than others (due to the layout of the home, number of family members, children in the home, etc). > > One side of the argument (Ivan), has been trying to paint the other side (… us) as gun-totin’, wild west yearnin’ hicks from the boonies with shotguns and six shooters just waiting in our house for someone to break in, so we can murder them. > > That’s not the case, obviously, however that hasn’t stopped ivan from, repeatedly, insinuating as much. > > Have you read the entire thread, **1st**? Yes of course I have read the thread and I stand by my earlier post. You may have implied gun use as a last resort, as maybe others have, but by and large, I’m appalled by the lack of humanity demonstrated by many on here. One poster (can’t remember who and sorry, I ain’t scrolling back) said quite simply he neither knew nor cared about the reasons someone would be in his house. They were in his house and frankly deserved everything they got. He wasn’t alone either. I can’t speak for Ivan, but as I said, I doubt anyone would object to the use of force if someone was attacking their wife or child but as a profilactive measure violence is not the way forward IMO. ---
**Author:** ![1stFusilier](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/1/58956e/32.png) [@1stFusilier](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/1stFusilier)\ **Post date:** [January 26, 2009, 8:15pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/ok-if-i-shouldnt-_shoot_-the-intruder-then/482060/980 "2009-01-26T20:15:35Z")
> [@Cuckoorex](#): > > A lesson many prison kittens should learn. Fucking hell. Gun owners are not going out, Punisher-style, looking for thieves to shoot. The scenario is that, no matter what locks or home security you may or may not have, someone has broken into your home. **They have decided that it’s not a failing to harm others for their own benefit.** Now get out of here, unless you plan on actually reading the whole damn thread. Your bleeding heart is staining my carpet. Perhaps you should assume less because I did read the entire thread before entering. If having a degree of respect for human life (_all_ human life) equates to having a bleeding heart then so be it. ps Please don’t issue me with orders. I don’t take them in RL and I ain’t taking them from you. 😃 [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/ok-if-i-shouldnt-_shoot_-the-intruder-then/482060.md?page=48) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/ok-if-i-shouldnt-_shoot_-the-intruder-then/482060.md?page=50)