# Ok, if I shouldn't \_shoot\_ the intruder, then...? **URL:** \ **Category:** Great Debates\ **Created:** [January 19, 2009, 11:15pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/ok-if-i-shouldnt-_shoot_-the-intruder-then/482060 "2009-01-19T23:15:40Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 7
**Author:** ![Huerta88](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/h/82dd89/32.png) [@Huerta88](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Huerta88)\ **Post date:** [January 20, 2009, 7:05pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/ok-if-i-shouldnt-_shoot_-the-intruder-then/482060/121 "2009-01-20T19:05:14Z")
> [@mswas](#): > > People have tells, I’m sorry, this just made me laugh. This isn’t the World Series of Poker. My life\>life of guy who crosses my property line. Sorry, no matter how I calculate it, that math never changes. ---
**Author:** ![Scumpup](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/ce73a5/32.png) [@Scumpup](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Scumpup)\ **Post date:** [January 20, 2009, 7:08pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/ok-if-i-shouldnt-_shoot_-the-intruder-then/482060/122 "2009-01-20T19:08:38Z")
> [@mswas](#): > > To be clear, I don’t think it’s never appropriate to shoot an intruder, but just because they are in your house doesn’t mean it’s appropriate to shoot them. People have tells, you just need to trust your instincts. I think that generally the law should favor the home-owner in these cases. > > I just wanted to make that clear. Tells? _Tells?_ Get real. We are talking about an unknown intruder in your house. Quite possibly under less than ideal lighting conditions and with both you and he agitated. This isn’t Texas Hold’em with your buddies. As has been said several times already, it’s easy for him to not get shot. All he has to do is not break in to anybody’s house. Once he performs a criminal act, any harm that befalls him in the course of that crime is nobody’s fault but his own. ---
**Author:** ![gonzomax](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/g/e8c25b/32.png) [@gonzomax](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/gonzomax)\ **Post date:** [January 20, 2009, 7:08pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/ok-if-i-shouldnt-_shoot_-the-intruder-then/482060/123 "2009-01-20T19:08:49Z")
So much brave talk about taking a life. You really do not know if you can do it until the time comes. Fortunately for our species many have trouble killing. I worked with a southern gun loving NRA member who spoke about how easy it would be . Then, when someone broke in he could not do it. The burglar was coming through the window. He used the butt of his rifle and smashed the guys hand. He talked the next day about how sure he was that he could shoot someone breaking in. Then found he could not. ---
**Author:** ![Scumpup](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/ce73a5/32.png) [@Scumpup](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Scumpup)\ **Post date:** [January 20, 2009, 7:11pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/ok-if-i-shouldnt-_shoot_-the-intruder-then/482060/124 "2009-01-20T19:11:45Z")
> [@](#): > > So much brave talk about taking a life. You really do not know if you can do it until the time comes. But since you don’t really know what anybody here would or wouldn’t do, your anecdote isn’t of any value, now is it? ---
**Author:** ![Huerta88](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/h/82dd89/32.png) [@Huerta88](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Huerta88)\ **Post date:** [January 20, 2009, 7:13pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/ok-if-i-shouldnt-_shoot_-the-intruder-then/482060/125 "2009-01-20T19:13:45Z")
> [@gonzomax](#): > > So much brave talk about taking a life. You really do not know if you can do it until the time comes. Fortunately for our species many have trouble killing. I worked with a southern gun loving NRA member who spoke about how easy it would be . Then, when someone broke in he could not do it. The burglar was coming through the window. He used the butt of his rifle and smashed the guys hand. He talked the next day about how sure he was that he could shoot someone breaking in. Then found he could not. I do not think anyone’s bragging about how they’d love to kill someone. All I’ve said is that I have a gun and if you come into my house at night, I am not taking any options off the table. I don’t want to kill you, but I’m keeping it open if that seems like the best option at the time. ---
**Author:** ![Lynn\_Bodoni](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/l/e47c2d/32.png) [@Lynn\_Bodoni](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Lynn_Bodoni)\ **Post date:** [January 20, 2009, 7:15pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/ok-if-i-shouldnt-_shoot_-the-intruder-then/482060/126 "2009-01-20T19:15:54Z")
> [@Huerta88](#): > > I’m sorry, this just made me laugh. This isn’t the World Series of Poker. > > My life\>life of guy who crosses my property line. Sorry, no matter how I calculate it, that math never changes. That’s basically how I see it, too. In this sort of situation, I don’t know the intruder. I don’t know how he reacts under different circumstances. And I don’t have the time to figure him out from subtle clues. Instead, I will resort to using large, obvious clues such as the fact that HE’S IN MY HOUSE STEALING MY STUFF. I will most likely conclude that he ain’t Santa Claus, as I previously stated. I will have to react fast, if I want a favorable outcome. Or a favorable outcome for me and mine. I value my life, and the lives of my family, far more than I do the life of some random intruder. ---
**Author:** ![billfish678](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/7bcc69/32.png) [@billfish678](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/billfish678)\ **Post date:** [January 20, 2009, 7:21pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/ok-if-i-shouldnt-_shoot_-the-intruder-then/482060/127 "2009-01-20T19:21:13Z")
> [@Scumpup](#): > > Tells? _Tells?_ Get real. We are talking about an unknown intruder in your house. Quite possibly under less than ideal lighting conditions and with both you and he agitated. This isn’t Texas Hold’em with your buddies. > . Actually, it IS Texas Hold’em 😃 It just aint with your friends and the stakes are bit higher than a case of crappy beer. And the tells thing…that has GOT to be the most of the intellectually challenged things I have ever heard. ---
**Author:** ![billfish678](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/7bcc69/32.png) [@billfish678](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/billfish678)\ **Post date:** [January 20, 2009, 7:29pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/ok-if-i-shouldnt-_shoot_-the-intruder-then/482060/128 "2009-01-20T19:29:58Z")
> [@gonzomax](#): > > So much brave talk about taking a life. You really do not know if you can do it until the time comes. Fortunately for our species many have trouble killing. I. Well, a decent fraction of criminals certainly DON"T have any trouble killing, or at least beating the crap out of you, endangering your life significanty. I know I can do it. I risked the chance of killing someone once, and at that point my life certainly WAS not at risk. Late at night? Fear for my safety or others (even perfect strangers) Hell yeah, no problem. About the only hesitation I might have would be making sure its not Uncle Bob sleep walking again. ---
**Author:** ![Death\_of\_Rats](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/a6a055/32.png) [@Death\_of\_Rats](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Death_of_Rats)\ **Post date:** [January 20, 2009, 7:36pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/ok-if-i-shouldnt-_shoot_-the-intruder-then/482060/129 "2009-01-20T19:36:25Z")
> [@mswas](#): > > Dead people rarely complain. They do, however, have families and estates that sue. ---
**Author:** ![Kobal2](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/kobal2/32/20_2.png) [@Kobal2](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Kobal2)\ **Post date:** [January 20, 2009, 7:36pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/ok-if-i-shouldnt-_shoot_-the-intruder-then/482060/130 "2009-01-20T19:36:37Z")
> [@billfish678](#): > > Of course you could probably get in big trouble for firing even a warning shot in some legally retarded states. > > Yeah, one would hope the criminals wouldnt call your bluff, but everything I’ve ever seen on tv:rolleyes: the criminals sure as hell usually don’t have any trouble running from armed pissed off cops, so I imagine angry harry the homeowner might not be able to pull this off regularly. > > I guess, if you are big ass sumo wrestler, you could get the upper hand and sit on em till the cops arrive 🙂 The way I see it, you lose nothing by trying - either he calls your bluff and you’re in the exact same situation as before (minus 2 rounds in the clip, plus alert neighbours/family frantically dialing 911 - small gain there), or he doesn’t and you can both wait for the cavalry, staring at each other like porcelain cats. Or, 3rd possibility, not only does he call your bluff but he also becomes aggressive/pulls a weapon of his own, in which case there’s no moral dilemma and you may blamblam away till the trigger goes click. Win-win-win. ---
**Author:** ![Cluricaun](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/bb73d2/32.png) [@Cluricaun](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Cluricaun)\ **Post date:** [January 20, 2009, 7:39pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/ok-if-i-shouldnt-_shoot_-the-intruder-then/482060/131 "2009-01-20T19:39:06Z")
> [@Todderbob](#): > > **Always** shoot to kill. > > If you use a firearm in self defense, you’re using lethal force whether they die or not. You need to end the threat as quickly and efficiently as possible. You do not shoot to kill, you shoot to stop. Often times the level of force needed to assure that your attacker stops will be lethal, but the mindset is not one of premeditated murder. If three to the center mass drops your attacker, you certainly don’t finish him off with a headshot to make sure. That’s shooting to kill. Anyone who carries a weapon or maintains one for home defense would be well served to read up on the expert advice of Massad Ayoob, a former police officer, firearms instructor, and expert trial witness. He’s seen more good shoots framed as bad ones by prosecuting attorneys than nearly anyone else alive and has solid gold advice on what to do before becoming armed and what to do after having to make the decision to engage with a firearm. Jeff Cooper and the like are good for the actual training, but there’s a great deal more to it than just pulling the bang switch. If you make the decision to become armed, make sure that you make an informed decision and educate yourself as much as possible on both tactics and technique as well as legally safeguarding yourself in the event that you ever need to actually use it. ---
**Author:** ![ivan\_astikov](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/i/58f4c7/32.png) [@ivan\_astikov](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/ivan_astikov)\ **Post date:** [January 20, 2009, 7:48pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/ok-if-i-shouldnt-_shoot_-the-intruder-then/482060/132 "2009-01-20T19:48:14Z")
> [@Cluricaun](#): > > You do not shoot to kill, you shoot to stop. Often times the level of force needed to assure that your attacker stops will be lethal, but the mindset is not one of premeditated murder. If three to the center mass drops your attacker, you certainly don’t finish him off with a headshot to make sure. That’s shooting to kill. > > Anyone who carries a weapon or maintains one for home defense would be well served to read up on the expert advice of Massad Ayoob, a former police officer, firearms instructor, and expert trial witness. He’s seen more good shoots framed as bad ones by prosecuting attorneys than nearly anyone else alive and has solid gold advice on what to do before becoming armed and what to do after having to make the decision to engage with a firearm. Jeff Cooper and the like are good for the actual training, but there’s a great deal more to it than just pulling the bang switch. If you make the decision to become armed, make sure that you make an informed decision and educate yourself as much as possible on both tactics and technique as well as legally safeguarding yourself in the event that you ever need to actually use it. Yes, because in that moment when you wake up in the middle of the night hearing noises downstairs, and the only other person who should be in the house is lying beside you, all those things would go through your mind. The point is, to make your house that much of a deterrent for all except the homicidal nutjob burglar - who tends to just kick your front door in while you are having your tea - rather than have to worry about what you will do if someone gets in. ---
**Author:** ![Jolly\_Roger](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/j/91b2a8/32.png) [@Jolly\_Roger](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Jolly_Roger)\ **Post date:** [January 20, 2009, 7:49pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/ok-if-i-shouldnt-_shoot_-the-intruder-then/482060/133 "2009-01-20T19:49:59Z")
> [@Scumpup](#): > > But since you don’t really know what anybody here would or wouldn’t do, your anecdote isn’t of any value, now is it? QFT. I do know that at times when threatened I’ve been scared near wits end but able to act(which, I guess is good, being in the Army and all…) Would I shoot a guy breaking into my house? I think I could if I felt threatened. If he has a weapon definitely. The NRA guy? well, if he had the opportunity to rifle butt his hand he wasn’t being directly threatened. And no one here has said it would be easy to kill someone or that they were desiring to do so. I can understand those that are completely against shooting an intruder and hey, thats your right. If anything it only means that the burglar will rob your house againb since you decided to just let him run. If he breaks in my house he might not walk out. ---
**Author:** ![mswas](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/e99b99/32.png) [@mswas](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/mswas)\ **Post date:** [January 20, 2009, 7:56pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/ok-if-i-shouldnt-_shoot_-the-intruder-then/482060/134 "2009-01-20T19:56:08Z")
> [@Huerta88](#): > > I’m sorry, this just made me laugh. This isn’t the World Series of Poker. > > My life\>life of guy who crosses my property line. Sorry, no matter how I calculate it, that math never changes. Yeah well, their life is still in your hands. You are going to react to how they act, and they have tells. You can close your mind to it and react like a frightened animal, or you can pull the trigger or not consciously. _shrugs_ Either way you are still responsible for your actions. There are still…tells. ---
**Author:** ![mswas](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/e99b99/32.png) [@mswas](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/mswas)\ **Post date:** [January 20, 2009, 7:58pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/ok-if-i-shouldnt-_shoot_-the-intruder-then/482060/135 "2009-01-20T19:58:45Z")
> [@billfish678](#): > > And the tells thing…that has GOT to be the most of the intellectually challenged things I have ever heard. Your inability to read body language doesn’t mean there isn’t body language to read. ---
**Author:** ![shallora](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/f9ae1b/32.png) [@shallora](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/shallora)\ **Post date:** [January 20, 2009, 7:59pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/ok-if-i-shouldnt-_shoot_-the-intruder-then/482060/136 "2009-01-20T19:59:17Z")
> [@Death\_of\_Rats](#): > > They do, however, have families and estates that sue. Criminals who break into obviously occupied houses in the middle of the night Sorry, but these criminals rarely have families, and they _never_ have “estates.” Even those that do, often have their cases thrown out before it ever gets to court. And if you’re asking me to “cite references” for this, do you really think that you will come up with more examples of families-of-intruders who have won against vs. families-of-home-owners whom have lost? ---
**Author:** ![mswas](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/e99b99/32.png) [@mswas](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/mswas)\ **Post date:** [January 20, 2009, 8:00pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/ok-if-i-shouldnt-_shoot_-the-intruder-then/482060/137 "2009-01-20T20:00:47Z")
One time I was walking down the street at night, I saw a guy in a hoodie with a scowl on his face. I had my girlfriend with me. He started to pull his box cutter. I moved us both out of the way, because…I read the tells. When he saw that I saw his box cutter he put it back, because he read my…tells. I didn’t get slashed because I read the…tells. ---
**Author:** ![gonzomax](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/g/e8c25b/32.png) [@gonzomax](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/gonzomax)\ **Post date:** [January 20, 2009, 8:01pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/ok-if-i-shouldnt-_shoot_-the-intruder-then/482060/138 "2009-01-20T20:01:48Z")
> [@Scumpup](#): > > But since you don’t really know what anybody here would or wouldn’t do, your anecdote isn’t of any value, now is it? Therefore neither would they. So it all becomes pointless. Doesn’t it. ---
**Author:** ![mswas](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/e99b99/32.png) [@mswas](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/mswas)\ **Post date:** [January 20, 2009, 8:01pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/ok-if-i-shouldnt-_shoot_-the-intruder-then/482060/139 "2009-01-20T20:01:51Z")
> [@shallora](#): > > Criminals who break into obviously occupied houses in the middle of the night Sorry, **but these criminals rarely have families** , and they _never_ have “estates.” :dubious: ---
**Author:** ![billfish678](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/7bcc69/32.png) [@billfish678](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/billfish678)\ **Post date:** [January 20, 2009, 8:04pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/ok-if-i-shouldnt-_shoot_-the-intruder-then/482060/140 "2009-01-20T20:04:13Z")
> [@mswas](#): > > Your inability to read body language doesn’t mean there isn’t body language to read. Yeah, that UNREADABLE body language sure helps ME in making a informed decision as to whether mr tivo taker intends me bodily harm or not. Do. You. Actually. Think. This. Way. ? Holly frickin Molly is all I can say. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/ok-if-i-shouldnt-_shoot_-the-intruder-then/482060.md?page=6) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/ok-if-i-shouldnt-_shoot_-the-intruder-then/482060.md?page=8)