# Ok,Im new here,Carol is the name **URL:** \ **Category:** Miscellaneous and Personal Stuff I Must Share\ **Created:** [April 18, 2010, 3:34pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/ok-im-new-here-carol-is-the-name/536534 "2010-04-18T15:34:10Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 16
**Author:** ![Marley23](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/45deac/32.png) [@Marley23](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Marley23)\ **Post date:** [April 28, 2010, 2:15pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/ok-im-new-here-carol-is-the-name/536534/301 "2010-04-28T14:15:02Z")
> [@carol\_nistri](#): > > Well then,I take it this board thinks theres nothing to all of this. Why should we think there’s anything to it? Your theory (if we can say you have one!) doesn’t fit the facts and raises way more questions than it answers. Ken Rommel has a much better theory. ---
**Author:** ![Attack\_from\_the\_3rd\_dimension](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/b38774/32.png) [@Attack\_from\_the\_3rd\_dimension](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Attack_from_the_3rd_dimension)\ **Post date:** [April 28, 2010, 3:15pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/ok-im-new-here-carol-is-the-name/536534/302 "2010-04-28T15:15:27Z")
> [@carol\_nistri](#): > > Well then,I take it this board thinks theres nothing to all of this. Ranchers are wrong to report what they see and their vets and law enforcement are also wrong,my my and to think you did all that without ever having to leave your chairs.Well I see things differently,this has been going on for years,dispite stakeouts ranchers are continually hit and their animals end up dead with no apparent reason at hand.Ignore it if you will,thats your choice to me its a strange and mysterious occurance but to all of you it isnt,shrugs,so be it. This is not an accurate assessment of the situation. I would summarize it more as follows: 1. Some cows are found dead, and look weird. Some ranchers are concerned, some vets and rangers suggest that it is not typical for natural causes. No other mechanism is proposed. 2. Natural causes are proposed as a mechanism anyway, with the suggestion that no one participating in the discussion has any first hand knowledge of the situation. The suggestion is also made that ranchers may not be the best people to comment of predators, scavengers, insects and rot. 3. Occam’s razor is invoked, suggesting that in the absence of further data, or another explanation, the natural causes explanation be provisionally accepted, since it is the . simplest explanation, _and no alternative has been proposed_. An alternative hypothesis is repeatedly requested (1), but none is provided (2). 4. Everyone concludes they were right the whole time. _ **Cow anus** _ becomes a new dope catchphrase. Several posters contemplate changing there names to **Cow Anus** or **Suna Woc** (3), but decide against it. 5. Thread slowly, painfully dies, as you are unwilling to say “Aliens” or “MIB” or whatever it is you think is going on, so that we can discuss it. 6. Again, welcome to the Dope. (1) Repeatedly by direct request to you, **Carol** (2) Tangential comments about crop circles are abundant. (3) **Suna Woc** is pretty tempting. . ---
**Author:** ![Colibri](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/colibri/32/1841_2.png) [@Colibri](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Colibri)\ **Post date:** [April 28, 2010, 3:53pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/ok-im-new-here-carol-is-the-name/536534/303 "2010-04-28T15:53:21Z")
> [@carol\_nistri](#): > > Even if the soil is hard and dry tracks would still show up where the animal bit into a piece of flesh and proceded to tug and remove that flesh. Have you ever hear of vultures? They could easily perch on the carcass itself and leave no trace on the ground. But in any case, I think (actually I’m sure) you overestimate the likelihood of predators leaving traces on hard ground, at least those that would be detected by a non-expert. ---
**Author:** ![outlierrn](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/outlierrn/32/3005_2.png) [@outlierrn](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/outlierrn)\ **Post date:** [April 28, 2010, 4:57pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/ok-im-new-here-carol-is-the-name/536534/304 "2010-04-28T16:57:08Z")
> [@carol\_nistri](#): > > .Ranchers see range death all the time Outliern,there familar with common range death its no big deal. This what there seeing is something none of them have experienced before,it was the ranchers that called in law enforcement when their vets came away as perplexed as they were. Which ranchers, specifically, on which ranches, specifically. Who, specifically, said they’d never experienced it before, and please identify the perplexed vets and law enforcement. When come back, bring names, dates and reports, in short BRING DATA. ---
**Author:** ![Colibri](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/colibri/32/1841_2.png) [@Colibri](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Colibri)\ **Post date:** [April 28, 2010, 5:44pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/ok-im-new-here-carol-is-the-name/536534/305 "2010-04-28T17:44:46Z")
> [@carol\_nistri](#): > > What alerted the ranchers is the time factor.In order for a carcase to receive as much damage to them as these cattle mutes more time had to have passed.In some cases its only a matter of a few hours before a cow is found with all of its parts missing. And the way they are missing,teats and anuses missing yet no tearing of the flesh,eyes missing yet even on white faced herfords theres no blood staining the white of the face,the list goes on and on. If these animals had been fed upon then tracks would be around the ground.Even if the soil is hard and dry tracks would still show up where the animal bit into a piece of flesh and proceded to tug and remove that flesh. There are no tracks of humans or animals ever around the body.This leads some to believe that the aniamal is actually killed and mutilated elsewhere with its body being lifted and set down somewhere else,hence no footprints. To expand on this a little, Turkey Vultures are very common throughout the American West. Like the common image, they will circle over or perch near a dying animal until it succumbs, then be on it in a matter of minutes. Many vultures may gather at the same corpse. Their beaks are sharp, but they are not very powerful. They are unable to cut open thick cattle hide, so they preferentially go for the soft parts, attacking the eyes, lips, tongue, nose, anus, vagina, and udders. Because the beak is sharp, the carcass will not necessarily show signs of tearing, and if an eye is plucked out cleanly it may not leave traces of blood on the face. As I mentioned before, if they perch on the corpse they will leave no tracks; and since they are not very heavy, and slice instead of tear, they will not leave tracks anyway except on soft or dusty ground. As I mentioned before, there is no reason to select anuses, eyes, or udders for medical testing. However, these are exactly the tissues that are preferentially taken by Turkey Vultures and other predators. This evidence alone strongly suggests that this is the explanation. The other explanation asks us to believe that the ranchers are unable to hear or see these helicopters toting cattle corpses hither and yon about wide-open countryside for reasons that make no logical sense. > [@](#): > > Ranchers see range death all the time Outliern,there familar with common range death its no big deal. This what there seeing is something none of them have experienced before,it was the ranchers that called in law enforcement when their vets came away as perplexed as they were. We have two alternatives: 1. These unnamed and unidentified ranchers and veterinarians have made a mistake in interpreting the evidence. 2. Supposedly sophisticated black-ops operatives (or whoever is doing this) are taking extraordinary and extremely expensive measures to cover something up, but are too stupid and incompetent to do it in such a way that it doesn’t generate even more suspicion, speculation, and mystery. I’ve worked on environmental surveys all over Wyoming and parts of Colorado and Montana. I’ve met and dealt with a lot of ranchers. While plenty of them are pretty smart, ranching isn’t rocket science. I think that it’s much more likely that an occasional rancher has made a mistake in evaluating the evidence than that there is a secret government program to steal cow anuses. ---
**Author:** ![Ostrya](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/o/35a633/32.png) [@Ostrya](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Ostrya)\ **Post date:** [April 28, 2010, 5:45pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/ok-im-new-here-carol-is-the-name/536534/306 "2010-04-28T17:45:07Z")
**outlierrn** is right. (ETA, Colibri too, and many others) You said this, carol: “Each and every suggestion should be followed thru on. You cant just accept that insect made this hole or that wound,youve got to be told the name of the insect the time of year and if that insect even lives in the area. Theres so much gobbledeegook that weve been fed that sounds like a professional analysis that weve allowed the wool to be yanked down.” What you said should work both ways. You have a responsibility to follow up with specifics to support your claims. Otherwise, how can you expect anyone to believe you? - you’re not being reasonable and only continue being vague w/your explanations. It should bother you that you’re unable to present any evidence. ---
**Author:** ![Attack\_from\_the\_3rd\_dimension](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/b38774/32.png) [@Attack\_from\_the\_3rd\_dimension](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Attack_from_the_3rd_dimension)\ **Post date:** [April 28, 2010, 6:10pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/ok-im-new-here-carol-is-the-name/536534/307 "2010-04-28T18:10:12Z")
> [@the lone cashew](#): > > **outlierrn** is right. (ETA, Colibri too, and many others) > > You said this, carol: > > “Each and every suggestion should be followed thru on. You cant just accept that insect made this hole or that wound,youve got to be told the name of the insect the time of year and if that insect even lives in the area. Theres so much gobbledeegook that weve been fed that sounds like a professional analysis that weve allowed the wool to be yanked down.” > > What you said should work both ways. You have a responsibility to follow up with specifics to support your claims. Otherwise, how can you expect anyone to believe you? - you’re not being reasonable and only continue being vague w/your explanations. > It should bother you that you’re unable to present any evidence. Yup. Based on your criteria for investigation, you should now be going out to learn all about how turkey vultures go about eating a cow’s anus. \* \*Number 2627 in the list of sentences I never thought I would write. ---
**Author:** ![Jack\_Batty](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/jack_batty/32/3201_2.png) [@Jack\_Batty](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Jack_Batty)\ **Post date:** [April 28, 2010, 6:14pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/ok-im-new-here-carol-is-the-name/536534/308 "2010-04-28T18:14:37Z")
I think it’s cute how the SDMB hoi polloi keeps explaining things to \*\*carol \*\*as though it will make a single dent in her arguments/beliefs/rantings-and/or-ravings. You could present video evidence of every cattle who has ever died … ever … being scavanged by coyote and vultures and boll weevils or whatever and the response will merely be, “yeah, but what about the other ones? Huh?” cow anus ---
**Author:** ![outlierrn](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/outlierrn/32/3005_2.png) [@outlierrn](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/outlierrn)\ **Post date:** [April 28, 2010, 6:25pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/ok-im-new-here-carol-is-the-name/536534/309 "2010-04-28T18:25:55Z")
coWAnus ---
**Author:** ![carol\_nistri](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/edb3f5/32.png) [@carol\_nistri](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/carol_nistri)\ **Post date:** [April 28, 2010, 6:32pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/ok-im-new-here-carol-is-the-name/536534/310 "2010-04-28T18:32:40Z")
> [@Colibri](#): > > Have you ever hear of vultures? They could easily perch on the carcass itself and leave no trace on the ground. But in any case, I think (actually I’m sure) you overestimate the likelihood of predators leaving traces on hard ground, at least those that would be detected by a non-expert. Yes of course ive heard of vultures,the vulture is a messy eater.They go for the eyes on a dead animal you know.The eye contains fluid that would stain the surrounding hide.I give up,lol,I wonder why I bothered but I thought I could at least plant a seed of doubt,its highly unlikely when your all so sure that ranchers are not the experts here.You know this has been a study in human nature as much as anything else.You or most of you feel Im way off the mark,I in turn am astounded at how you dismiss men that should be turned to in a case of this nature.Ranchers are the experts when it comes to common range death.Period. ---
**Author:** ![jayjay](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/jayjay/32/6765_2.png) [@jayjay](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/jayjay)\ **Post date:** [April 28, 2010, 6:42pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/ok-im-new-here-carol-is-the-name/536534/311 "2010-04-28T18:42:18Z")
> [@carol\_nistri](#): > > I in turn am astounded at how you dismiss men that should be turned to in a case of this nature.Ranchers are the experts when it comes to common range death.Period. “You’ve got to remember that these are just simple farmers. These are people of the land. The common clay of the new west. You know… morons.” ---
**Author:** ![Czarcasm](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/czarcasm/32/4050_2.png) [@Czarcasm](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Czarcasm)\ **Post date:** [April 28, 2010, 6:45pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/ok-im-new-here-carol-is-the-name/536534/312 "2010-04-28T18:45:57Z")
> [@carol\_nistri](#): > > Yes of course ive heard of vultures,the vulture is a messy eater.They go for the eyes on a dead animal you know.The eye contains fluid that would stain the surrounding hide.I give up,lol,I wonder why I bothered but I thought I could at least plant a seed of doubt,its highly unlikely when your all so sure that ranchers are not the experts here.You know this has been a study in human nature as much as anything else.You or most of you feel Im way off the mark,I in turn am astounded at how you dismiss men that should be turned to in a case of this nature.Ranchers are the experts when it comes to common range death.Period. Can you give us a source other than, say, _Fate_ magazine? ---
**Author:** ![Attack\_from\_the\_3rd\_dimension](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/b38774/32.png) [@Attack\_from\_the\_3rd\_dimension](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Attack_from_the_3rd_dimension)\ **Post date:** [April 28, 2010, 6:48pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/ok-im-new-here-carol-is-the-name/536534/313 "2010-04-28T18:48:27Z")
Give her some time, she only got her quest to learn the ways of the vulture back at post #307. ---
**Author:** ![Marley23](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/45deac/32.png) [@Marley23](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Marley23)\ **Post date:** [April 28, 2010, 6:49pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/ok-im-new-here-carol-is-the-name/536534/314 "2010-04-28T18:49:38Z")
> [@carol\_nistri](#): > > Yes of course ive heard of vultures,the vulture is a messy eater.They go for the eyes on a dead animal you know. **Colibri** studies birds for a living. You probably shouldn’t try to lecture him about vultures. > [@](#): > > I in turn am astounded at how you dismiss men that should be turned to in a case of this nature. You’ve dismissed Rommel much the same way. And his opinions at least made sense. ---
**Author:** ![jayjay](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/jayjay/32/6765_2.png) [@jayjay](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/jayjay)\ **Post date:** [April 28, 2010, 7:12pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/ok-im-new-here-carol-is-the-name/536534/315 "2010-04-28T19:12:30Z")
> [@Czarcasm](#): > > Can you give us a source other than, say, _Fate_ magazine? Or _Fortean Times_. Charles Fort was exciting to read when I was 12. He’s just silly now that I’m an adult. ---
**Author:** ![Colibri](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/colibri/32/1841_2.png) [@Colibri](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Colibri)\ **Post date:** [April 28, 2010, 7:17pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/ok-im-new-here-carol-is-the-name/536534/316 "2010-04-28T19:17:46Z")
> [@Jack\_Batty](#): > > I think it’s cute how the SDMB hoi polloi keeps explaining things to \*\*carol \*\*as though it will make a single dent in her arguments/beliefs/rantings-and/or-ravings. It’s not really for **carol’s** benefit. I think of it as sort of like batting practice. When **carol** keeps lobbing these big old softballs into the middle of the strike zone, it’s kind of fun to whack them over the fences. (Actually, with **carol** it’s more like T-Ball. :)) > [@carol\_nistri](#): > > Yes of course ive heard of vultures,the vulture is a messy eater.They go for the eyes on a dead animal you know.The eye contains fluid that would stain the surrounding hide. **carol** , I promise you I know more about vultures than you ever will. (Here’s my [Staff Report on vultures](http://www.straightdope.com/columns/read/1923/why-do-vultures-circle-dead-stuff), which mentions their eating habits.) The fluid in the eye would only stain the hide if the eyeball were punctured; a vulture will often pluck it out intact. > [@](#): > > I give up,lol,I wonder why I bothered but I thought I could at least plant a seed of doubt, Well, you know, you haven’t actually presented any evidence, only anecdotes and personal opinions. You’ve refused to respond to most of the arguments presented against you, and have not provided any logical or coherent theory to explain the supposed observations. If you wanted to plant a seed of doubt, you’re going about it very badly. > [@](#): > > its highly unlikely when your all so sure that ranchers are not the experts here.You know this has been a study in human nature as much as anything else.You or most of you feel Im way off the mark,I in turn am astounded at how you dismiss men that should be turned to in a case of this nature.Ranchers are the experts when it comes to common range death.Period. As I said, I have known lots of ranchers, and while many were smart others were dumber than a box of rocks. (Go to a county fair some time, and you’ll see some of these guys losing at tic-tac-toe to a trained chicken.) Everything you’ve described can easily be explained as the work of scavengers. You’re going to have to do better than this to make a case. ---
**Author:** ![Freudian\_Slit](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/f/5daacb/32.png) [@Freudian\_Slit](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Freudian_Slit)\ **Post date:** [April 28, 2010, 7:50pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/ok-im-new-here-carol-is-the-name/536534/317 "2010-04-28T19:50:08Z")
> [@Colibri](#): > > **carol** , I promise you I know more about vultures than you ever will. (Here’s my [Staff Report on vultures](http://www.straightdope.com/columns/read/1923/why-do-vultures-circle-dead-stuff), which mentions their eating habits.) The fluid in the eye would only stain the hide if the eyeball were punctured; a vulture will often pluck it out intact. Yes.But what if the vulture was having a really bad day,and it got juice everywhere lol. ---
**Author:** ![Colibri](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/colibri/32/1841_2.png) [@Colibri](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Colibri)\ **Post date:** [April 28, 2010, 8:05pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/ok-im-new-here-carol-is-the-name/536534/318 "2010-04-28T20:05:18Z")
> [@Freudian\_Slit](#): > > Yes.But what if the vulture was having a really bad day,and it got juice everywhere lol. Given that a good day for a vulture consists of finding a putrid opossum, I don’t want to think what a bad day is like. ---
**Author:** ![jayjay](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/jayjay/32/6765_2.png) [@jayjay](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/jayjay)\ **Post date:** [April 28, 2010, 8:12pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/ok-im-new-here-carol-is-the-name/536534/319 "2010-04-28T20:12:07Z")
Now I’m mentally picturing a vulture wearing one of those paper bibs like the lobster places have, only with a little monochrome silhouette of roadkill on it, tire marks and all. ---
**Author:** ![Attack\_from\_the\_3rd\_dimension](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/b38774/32.png) [@Attack\_from\_the\_3rd\_dimension](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Attack_from_the_3rd_dimension)\ **Post date:** [April 28, 2010, 8:26pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/ok-im-new-here-carol-is-the-name/536534/320 "2010-04-28T20:26:03Z")
> [@Colibri](#): > > As I said, I have known lots of ranchers, and while many were smart others were dumber than a box of rocks. (Go to a county fair some time, and you’ll see some of these guys losing at tic-tac-toe to a trained chicken.) Everything you’ve described can easily be explained as the work of scavengers. You’re going to have to do better than this to make a case. Hm. Have we considered the possibility that _the chickens_ are the ones mutilating the cows? I understand they’re smarter than ranchers, and I suspect that they have rage issues. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/ok-im-new-here-carol-is-the-name/536534.md?page=15) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/ok-im-new-here-carol-is-the-name/536534.md?page=17)