# OK, I've seen The Avengers - open spoilers! **URL:** \ **Category:** Cafe Society\ **Created:** [May 8, 2012, 1:37am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/ok-ive-seen-the-avengers-open-spoilers/621234 "2012-05-08T01:37:12Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 14
**Author:** ![DrDeth](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/b487fb/32.png) [@DrDeth](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/DrDeth)\ **Post date:** [May 14, 2012, 5:27am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/ok-ive-seen-the-avengers-open-spoilers/621234/261 "2012-05-14T05:27:22Z")
> [@Mister\_Rik](#): > > Also, Cobie Smulders. Day-um! Who was that? ---
**Author:** ![Love\_Rhombus](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/love_rhombus/32/10694_2.png) [@Love\_Rhombus](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Love_Rhombus)\ **Post date:** [May 14, 2012, 5:31am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/ok-ive-seen-the-avengers-open-spoilers/621234/262 "2012-05-14T05:31:24Z")
> [@DrDeth](#): > > Who was that? Maria Hill. ---
**Author:** ![Chronos](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/chronos/32/134_2.png) [@Chronos](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Chronos)\ **Post date:** [May 14, 2012, 6:04am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/ok-ive-seen-the-avengers-open-spoilers/621234/263 "2012-05-14T06:04:26Z")
Which is to say, the dark-haired lady that Fury was often expositing to, and who appeared to be his second-in-command. ---
**Author:** ![cmkeller](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/cmkeller/32/118_2.png) [@cmkeller](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/cmkeller)\ **Post date:** [May 14, 2012, 6:30am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/ok-ive-seen-the-avengers-open-spoilers/621234/264 "2012-05-14T06:30:31Z")
Mister Rik: > [@](#): > > I liked the character in the movie, but I was under the impression that Hawkeye was a much-later addition to the Avengers in the comics. I’m only familiar with him from his membership in West Coast Avengers in the late '80s. I’m also a bit put off by the subtle hints at a romantic interest between him and Black Widow. Was that ever actually in the comics? Last I saw (before he died and came back, anyway), he was married to Mockingbird. Also, I seem to recall that he’s a blond in the comics, but that’s no biggie. Hawkeye was a very early member of the Avengers, he joined in issue # 16, which featured the first major membership shake-up. (Minor ones before that were the departure of the Hulk, and the joining of Captain America.) He and the Black Widow were romantically linked for quite a long time as well, certainly from Hawkeye’s first appearance in 1964, and I’d estimate didn’t end until the early 1970s or so, when she took up with Daredevil instead. ---
**Author:** ![Theobroma](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/b5a626/32.png) [@Theobroma](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Theobroma)\ **Post date:** [May 14, 2012, 6:34am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/ok-ive-seen-the-avengers-open-spoilers/621234/265 "2012-05-14T06:34:27Z")
Okay, just wondering. Great movie, excellent laughs, really well done. First, nobody giving any love to Captain America’s relief at FINALLY getting a cultural reference? (IIRC it was flying monkeys from the Wizard of Oz, before his time) Secondly, I’m just wondering. Why does everybody in Stuttgart understand perfectly a long speech in English? I was expecting confusion and muttering in German. But no… And the one man who then stands up to Loki does so in English! I mean, why didn’t they do that in London if they wanted everyone speaking English? Or use subtitles and hire one old dude who speaks German? ---
**Author:** ![Alessan](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/alessan/32/465_2.png) [@Alessan](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Alessan)\ **Post date:** [May 14, 2012, 6:44am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/ok-ive-seen-the-avengers-open-spoilers/621234/266 "2012-05-14T06:44:11Z")
My guess is that Loki was using the same Universal Translator that allowed him and Thor to speak English in the first place. ---
**Author:** ![Tabby\_Cat](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/6a8cbe/32.png) [@Tabby\_Cat](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Tabby_Cat)\ **Post date:** [May 14, 2012, 7:22am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/ok-ive-seen-the-avengers-open-spoilers/621234/267 "2012-05-14T07:22:52Z")
Ok, best scene - Hulk and Loki. 🙂 Just a question, though - how durable is Loki, and for that matter, Thor? That thumping by the Hulk seemed pretty bad, but the damage to the floor didn’t look THAT bad. Comparable to getting tossed out of a skyscraper, maybe? Could Loki survive that? I was expecting a Hulk SMASH at the end to make sure that he was really down - I would have done that - but Loki just kinda lies there. Would bullets hurt Loki? ---
**Author:** ![The\_Other\_Waldo\_Pepper](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/the_other_waldo_pepper/32/12370_2.png) [@The\_Other\_Waldo\_Pepper](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/The_Other_Waldo_Pepper)\ **Post date:** [May 14, 2012, 8:10am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/ok-ive-seen-the-avengers-open-spoilers/621234/268 "2012-05-14T08:10:03Z")
> [@cmkeller](#): > > I realize there’s some comfort in the idea that someone like Captain America, with his simple, pure-hearted heroism, would be “worthy” of Mjollnir. However, I find it likely that the ancient Viking (or, if you prefer, Asgardian) notion of “worthiness” is very different from the modern Western idea of “worthiness” and that Cap isn’t likely to pick up the hammer. I’d figure the Viking notion of “worthiness” would be summed up by someone who bare-handedly kills enemies of his people – without hesitation, even when he’s outnumbered and they’re armed – and who liberates prisoners-of-war before treating 'em to frosty ale and then leading 'em to victory over their former captors. So I figured the CAPTAIN AMERICA movie set it up almost perfectly (even repeatedly working the _“Earn A Place In Valhalla By Dying In Battle”_ equivalent; Steve earns his shot by throwing himself on a grenade to save the cowering soldiers, and does likewise on a bigger scale to save New York City by forcing that plane down in the Arctic). And _ **after** _ all of that, you think a guy who repeatedly goes toe-to-toe with Asgardians – blocking a shot from that hammer before playing Turn-It-To-Ash field commander to the Avengers in general and a receptive Thor in particular – can only argue that he’s worthy by dint of being _ **pure-hearted?** _ ---
**Author:** ![si\_blakely](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/d9b06d/32.png) [@si\_blakely](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/si_blakely)\ **Post date:** [May 14, 2012, 9:40am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/ok-ive-seen-the-avengers-open-spoilers/621234/269 "2012-05-14T09:40:28Z")
IMHO… Loki’s _Mewling Quim_ insult was somewhat set up during the Iron Man/Thor fight in the forest, with the _Shakespeare in the park_ line. All of Thor’s and Loki’s lines were formal, with an archaic feel. An insult that Shakespeare himself could have used fits in with their speech patterns just fine. And sneaks _whimpering cunt_ past the censors. 😉 I have to say, the dialog was snappy and had some great one-liners. _Puny God_ still cracks me up. Si ---
**Author:** ![Bryan\_Ekers](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/bryan_ekers/32/183_2.png) [@Bryan\_Ekers](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Bryan_Ekers)\ **Post date:** [May 14, 2012, 9:46am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/ok-ive-seen-the-avengers-open-spoilers/621234/270 "2012-05-14T09:46:41Z")
Loki isn’t being nearly as trickstery as I think he should be, with all the direct combat and whatnot. Isn’t he, much more so than Thanos, likely to be the behind-the-scenes guy? ---
**Author:** ![Beastly\_Rotter](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/45deac/32.png) [@Beastly\_Rotter](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Beastly_Rotter)\ **Post date:** [May 14, 2012, 9:49am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/ok-ive-seen-the-avengers-open-spoilers/621234/271 "2012-05-14T09:49:49Z")
> [@Bryan\_Ekers](#): > > Loki isn’t being nearly as trickstery as I think he should be, with all the direct combat and whatnot. Isn’t he, much more so than Thanos, likely to be the behind-the-scenes guy? He had the Glowstick of Destiny. ---
**Author:** ![cmkeller](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/cmkeller/32/118_2.png) [@cmkeller](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/cmkeller)\ **Post date:** [May 14, 2012, 11:58am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/ok-ive-seen-the-avengers-open-spoilers/621234/272 "2012-05-14T11:58:36Z")
The Other Waldo Pepper: > [@](#): > > And after all of that, you think a guy who repeatedly goes toe-to-toe with Asgardians – blocking a shot from that hammer before playing Turn-It-To-Ash field commander to the Avengers in general and a receptive Thor in particular – can only argue that he’s worthy by dint of being pure-hearted? Well, in that case, you could say the same for Tony Stark or Nick Fury. But everyone seems to focus on Captain America in this way. ---
**Author:** ![BetsQ](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/fbc32d/32.png) [@BetsQ](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/BetsQ)\ **Post date:** [May 14, 2012, 12:37pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/ok-ive-seen-the-avengers-open-spoilers/621234/273 "2012-05-14T12:37:40Z")
There was some discussion in one of these threads about why the Hulk thumped Thor just after they’d taken down the flying dragon-like thing. I took my 10 year old son to see this over the weekend. Like Captain America, he didn’t get a lot of Ironman’s pop cultural references. However, the Hulk’s punch? Absolutely hysterical - the funniest part of the movie for the 10 year old boy demographic. Pretty sure that’s why it was in there. ---
**Author:** ![Alessan](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/alessan/32/465_2.png) [@Alessan](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Alessan)\ **Post date:** [May 14, 2012, 1:10pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/ok-ive-seen-the-avengers-open-spoilers/621234/274 "2012-05-14T13:10:14Z")
To me, it seemed obvious - the Hulk still felt like punching something, and Thor was the only thing still standing. Made perfect sense, and was absolutely hilarious. ---
**Author:** ![D\_Odds](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/d_odds/32/2882_2.png) [@D\_Odds](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/D_Odds)\ **Post date:** [May 14, 2012, 1:15pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/ok-ive-seen-the-avengers-open-spoilers/621234/275 "2012-05-14T13:15:12Z")
> [@Mister\_Rik](#): > > Seeing him fearlessly challenge a demigod was … unexpected. “So that’s what it does.” > [@](#): > > I can’t believe I didn’t recognize Thanos. I saw his chin and immediately thought “skrull”. This despite the fact that I used to be a huge Silver Surfer fan (mainly during Ron Lim’s run doing the artwork on the title in the late '80s) and reading the Infinity Gauntlet mini-series. I’m a big fan of Jim Starlin (creator of Thanos), even when he’s screwing the pooch on a story. Even in the first Thanos scene, I knew. Plus, no amount of Skrulls would ever give Loki pause and be allowed to speak with him like Thanos did, even if they were all Super-Skrulls. ---
**Author:** ![Mister\_Rik](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/mister_rik/32/491_2.png) [@Mister\_Rik](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Mister_Rik)\ **Post date:** [May 14, 2012, 1:49pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/ok-ive-seen-the-avengers-open-spoilers/621234/276 "2012-05-14T13:49:37Z")
> [@cmkeller](#): > > Hawkeye was a very early member of the Avengers, he joined in issue # 16, which featured the first major membership shake-up. (Minor ones before that were the departure of the Hulk, and the joining of Captain America.) He and the Black Widow were romantically linked for quite a long time as well, certainly from Hawkeye’s first appearance in 1964, and I’d estimate didn’t end until the early 1970s or so, when she took up with Daredevil instead. Thanks for the clarification 🙂 > [@cmkeller](#): > > Well, in that case, you could say the same for Tony Stark or Nick Fury. But everyone seems to focus on Captain America in this way. It _would_ be interesting to find out if Marvel has actually ever spelled out Odin’s definition of “worthy”, because as Mjolnir’s creator, Odin’s definition is the one that matters. From what I can deduce, the potential wielder’s _motivations_ matter as much as, if not more than actual martial ability. To be worthy of Mjolnir one must be a mighty warrior, brave & courageous, fighting for the right reasons, on the side of what is right and good. At the same time, the wielder must demonstrate humility, in that a desire for _personal glory_ cannot be a motivation for going to war. Indeed, in the _Thor_ movie, it was Thor’s arrogance and desire for personal glory that made him “unworthy”, and he only became worthy again after he’d humbled himself and put aside his ego. I think the King of Qin from the movie _Hero_ makes a relevant observation: “I have just come to a realization! This scroll by Broken Sword contains no secrets of his swordsmanship. What this reveals is his highest ideal. In the first state, man and sword become one and each other. Here, even a blade of grass can be used as a lethal weapon. In the next stage, the sword resides not in the hand but in the heart. Even without a weapon, the warrior can slay his enemy from a hundred paces. **But the ultimate ideal is when the sword disappears altogether. The warrior embraces all around him. The desire to kill no longer exists. Only peace remains.** ” Now add in the fact that, in the Marvel/DC crossover series some years back, Wonder Woman was able to pick up and wield Mjolnir. I’m more familiar with DC than Marvel as far as comics go (always liked DC better, and really wish they could get their shit together in their non-Batman movies), and I’ve learned that Diana’s ultimate motivation as a warrior is her deep-seated **love** for all life. She doesn’t go to war for the joy of combat, or to slay her enemies - she does it to protect those she loves … and that includes her enemies. Similarly, Thor’s motivation is based on his love for Jane Foster and Erik Selvig, and by extension all of humanity. He even loves his evil brother. And that’s why I think Captain America, Iron Man, Nick Fury, etc. aren’t “worthy”. They may meet _some_ of the criteria, but ultimately, their primary motivations are something other than “love for all life”. ---
**Author:** ![Sir\_T-Cups](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/ed655f/32.png) [@Sir\_T-Cups](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Sir_T-Cups)\ **Post date:** [May 14, 2012, 1:53pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/ok-ive-seen-the-avengers-open-spoilers/621234/277 "2012-05-14T13:53:52Z")
Minor point but worth noting cuz I’m a huge huge nerd for these things. Hawkeye was left handed 🙂 ---
**Author:** ![Bakhesh](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/3da27b/32.png) [@Bakhesh](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Bakhesh)\ **Post date:** [May 14, 2012, 2:14pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/ok-ive-seen-the-avengers-open-spoilers/621234/278 "2012-05-14T14:14:04Z")
> [@Mister\_Rik](#): > > Thanks for the clarification 🙂 > And that’s why I think Captain America, Iron Man, Nick Fury, etc. aren’t “worthy”. They may meet _some_ of the criteria, but ultimately, their primary motivations are something other than “love for all life”. Nick Fury would be too deceptive by nature to lift it, and Tony Stark probably too narcissistic, but Captain America CAN wield Mjolnir. There are a number of others, such as Beta Ray Bill and Eric Masterson who have also met with Odin’s idea of worthiness > **[Mjolnir (comics)](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mjolnir_(comics))** > > Mjolnir (.mw-parser-output .IPA-label-small{font-size:85%}.mw-parser-output .references .IPA-label-small,.mw-parser-output .infobox .IPA-label-small,.mw-parser-output .navbox .IPA-label-small{font-size:100%}UK: /ˈmjɒlnɪər/ MYOL-neer, US: /ˈmjɔːlnɪər/ MYAWL-neer), known more formally as Mjölnir, is a fictional magical weapon appearing in American comic books published by Marvel Comics. It is depicted as the principal weapon of the superhero Thor. Mjolnir, which first appears in Journey into Mjo... ---
**Author:** ![The\_Other\_Waldo\_Pepper](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/the_other_waldo_pepper/32/12370_2.png) [@The\_Other\_Waldo\_Pepper](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/The_Other_Waldo_Pepper)\ **Post date:** [May 14, 2012, 2:17pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/ok-ive-seen-the-avengers-open-spoilers/621234/279 "2012-05-14T14:17:19Z")
To play Phil Coulson for a moment, let me add that Captain America’s ability to lift Mjolnir was so impressive that it got emphasized on his [collectible card!](http://marvel.com/images/gallery/story/1098/images_from_make_mine_marvel_marvel_universe_trading_cards_series_2/image/83701) ---
**Author:** ![D\_Odds](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/d_odds/32/2882_2.png) [@D\_Odds](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/D_Odds)\ **Post date:** [May 14, 2012, 3:10pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/ok-ive-seen-the-avengers-open-spoilers/621234/280 "2012-05-14T15:10:33Z")
> [@Mister\_Rik](#): > > He even loves his evil brother. Adopted. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/ok-ive-seen-the-avengers-open-spoilers/621234.md?page=13) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/ok-ive-seen-the-avengers-open-spoilers/621234.md?page=15)