# OK, I've seen The Avengers - open spoilers! **URL:** \ **Category:** Cafe Society\ **Created:** [May 8, 2012, 1:37am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/ok-ive-seen-the-avengers-open-spoilers/621234 "2012-05-08T01:37:12Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 18
**Author:** ![Simplicio](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/c37758/32.png) [@Simplicio](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Simplicio)\ **Post date:** [May 18, 2012, 12:39pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/ok-ive-seen-the-avengers-open-spoilers/621234/341 "2012-05-18T12:39:25Z")
> [@Beastly\_Rotter](#): > > I think that was the point, though: Loki’s invasion - which was undertaken purely out of petulance and hubris - wasn’t really planned, and didn’t have proper leadership or tactics. Coulsen was quite right, he lacked commitment: Loki assumed that he would just show up and put on show, slap a few people around with the Glowstick of Doom, sow dissension among the supers, and then when they were split his army would bum-rush the show. Stark called it: Loki was a ful-on diva, and Stuttgart was his prelude; New York was a big show. I guess, but then Loki obviously put a lot of work into his plan to screw up Shield, so in the rest of the movie he doesn’t seem to be half-assing it. Plus the whole point of a trickster God is his tricks (which was one of the things I thought they did well in the rest of the film). No tricks make him kind of a push-over as a villian, especially since his alien army was outside getting mowed down by a dude with a bow and arrow, so didn’t really make for much of a threat either. But in anycase, whether it made sense in context or not wasn’t really my point. Having the aliens just wander around blowing up cars with no real purpose or objective made the last act feel pointless. The heroes are fighting the aliens, but it isn’t really clear why. The important thing is obviously to close the portal thingy (which the aliens seem to have zero interest in defending, since their primary mission appears to be blowing up cars), but the Avengers send their weakest member off to go figure it out instead of one of the characters with scientific training, while they run around trying to contain the aliens in the most densely populated area in N. America, so they can’t escape to somewhere less populated where they might do less damage. The movie just seemed lazily written throughout. ---
**Author:** ![BetsQ](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/fbc32d/32.png) [@BetsQ](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/BetsQ)\ **Post date:** [May 18, 2012, 2:10pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/ok-ive-seen-the-avengers-open-spoilers/621234/342 "2012-05-18T14:10:38Z")
> [@Simplicio](#): > > The important thing is obviously to close the portal thingy (which the aliens seem to have zero interest in defending, since their primary mission appears to be blowing up cars), but the Avengers send their weakest member off to go figure it out instead of one of the characters with scientific training, while they run around trying to contain the aliens in the most densely populated area in N. America, so they can’t escape to somewhere less populated where they might do less damage. I’m pretty sure that the Loki and company were quite confident that the tesseract and portal it was creating were 100% secure already. Ironman and Thor were unable to affect it in any way. The information the good guys needed about how to shut down the portal wasn’t available until Erik Selvig hit his head good and hard. At that point, any reasonably healthy person could shut it down. ---
**Author:** ![Simplicio](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/c37758/32.png) [@Simplicio](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Simplicio)\ **Post date:** [May 18, 2012, 2:50pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/ok-ive-seen-the-avengers-open-spoilers/621234/343 "2012-05-18T14:50:06Z")
> [@BetsQ](#): > > I’m pretty sure that the Loki and company were quite confident that the tesseract and portal it was creating were 100% secure already. Ironman and Thor were unable to affect it in any way. The information the good guys needed about how to shut down the portal wasn’t available until Erik Selvig hit his head good and hard. At that point, any reasonably healthy person could shut it down. Well, sure, obviously it worked out, because the Avengers are the good guys and so stuff is going to break in their favour. But the heroes aren’t supposed to know that, and they didn’t know going in that old-scientist guy knew how to break the barrier thingy. In the end, the invasion was stopped mainly because the characters were written to get lucky and the villain was written to suddenly get stupid. As I said, it was lazy writing. ---
**Author:** ![The\_Other\_Waldo\_Pepper](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/the_other_waldo_pepper/32/12370_2.png) [@The\_Other\_Waldo\_Pepper](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/The_Other_Waldo_Pepper)\ **Post date:** [May 18, 2012, 2:58pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/ok-ive-seen-the-avengers-open-spoilers/621234/344 "2012-05-18T14:58:05Z")
> [@Simplicio](#): > > Well, sure, obviously it worked out, because the Avengers are the good guys and so stuff is going to break in their favour. But the heroes aren’t supposed to know that, and they didn’t know going in that old-scientist guy knew how to break the barrier thingy. In the end, the invasion was stopped mainly because the characters were written to get lucky and the villain was written to suddenly get stupid. I’m curious: imagine the old-scientist guy _ **didn’t** _ know how to break the barrier thingy. What exactly happens if the Black Widow frustratedly stands around up there, poking and prodding at it but utterly failing to accomplish anything, at which point Iron Man rockets that nuclear weapon through the portal right on schedule? ---
**Author:** ![Skammer](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/skammer/32/143_2.png) [@Skammer](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Skammer)\ **Post date:** [May 18, 2012, 3:09pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/ok-ive-seen-the-avengers-open-spoilers/621234/345 "2012-05-18T15:09:16Z")
I also wondered why BW was in a hurry to close the portal once Iron Man had blown up the mother ship. No more enemies would be coming through at least for a little while; she could have given IM a little more of a cushion to come back through. ---
**Author:** ![Exapno\_Mapcase](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/exapno_mapcase/32/1051_2.png) [@Exapno\_Mapcase](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Exapno_Mapcase)\ **Post date:** [May 18, 2012, 3:10pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/ok-ive-seen-the-avengers-open-spoilers/621234/346 "2012-05-18T15:10:46Z")
> [@The\_Other\_Waldo\_Pepper](#): > > I’m curious: imagine the old-scientist guy _ **didn’t** _ know how to break the barrier thingy. What’s with “the old-scientist guy”? Stellan Skarsgård is all of 60. He’s three years younger than Sam Jackson. ---
**Author:** ![Ethilrist](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/ethilrist/32/4604_2.png) [@Ethilrist](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Ethilrist)\ **Post date:** [May 18, 2012, 3:28pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/ok-ive-seen-the-avengers-open-spoilers/621234/347 "2012-05-18T15:28:08Z")
> [@drastic\_quench](#): > > It absorbs and nullifies energy, except when he throws the shield and it ricochets somehow, **because comics.** Ah. I was wondering how it could both absorb and deliver blows. That explains it. ---
**Author:** ![The\_Other\_Waldo\_Pepper](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/the_other_waldo_pepper/32/12370_2.png) [@The\_Other\_Waldo\_Pepper](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/The_Other_Waldo_Pepper)\ **Post date:** [May 18, 2012, 3:38pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/ok-ive-seen-the-avengers-open-spoilers/621234/348 "2012-05-18T15:38:03Z")
> [@Ethilrist](#): > > Ah. I was wondering how it could both absorb and deliver blows. That explains it. The comics are – slightly better at explaining it. The idea is that his shield is an uneven alloy, part-vibranium and part-some-other-metal: the center is mostly vibrainium, with comparatively little of the other stuff; the rim is mostly other stuff, with comparatively little vibranium. ---
**Author:** ![silenus](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/silenus/32/166_2.png) [@silenus](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/silenus)\ **Post date:** [May 18, 2012, 3:43pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/ok-ive-seen-the-avengers-open-spoilers/621234/349 "2012-05-18T15:43:54Z")
Adamantium. ---
**Author:** ![Double\_Foolscap](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/85e7bf/32.png) [@Double\_Foolscap](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Double_Foolscap)\ **Post date:** [May 18, 2012, 3:54pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/ok-ive-seen-the-avengers-open-spoilers/621234/350 "2012-05-18T15:54:47Z")
> [@silenus](#): > > Adamantium. I’m fairly sure adamantium was created after an attempt to replicate the alloy used in Captain America’s shield. That’s what [Wikipedia](http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Adamantium) tells me, although it needs a citation. Plus it’s explicitly stated to be vibranium in the Captain America film. ---
**Author:** ![Lobohan](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/lobohan/32/79_2.png) [@Lobohan](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Lobohan)\ **Post date:** [May 18, 2012, 4:11pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/ok-ive-seen-the-avengers-open-spoilers/621234/351 "2012-05-18T16:11:46Z")
> [@Simplicio](#): > > I didn’t like the movie. The superheros seemed too interchangable. They could all basically fly around, punch really hard, get smashed through walls without any damage and either shoot projectiles that may or may not boomerang back (I guess Cap America couldn’t really fly, but given his ability to drop out of the sky at exactly the right moment, he mind as well have been able to do so). You do know he put a parachute on, for the scene with Thor and Iron Man? Aside from that, there are only so many types of super heroes. Flying strength based heroes are common. Most also have an energy blast. Superman, Gladiator, Captain Marvel, Captian Britain, etc, etc. Having similar strength-based powers isn’t some horrible failure. The differences that are important are the character’s persona, and special effects. Consider that in every cop, soldier or cowboy movie you’ve ever seen all the characters had similar powers. That said, only two of the heroes could fly. And Iron Man was much faster than Thor. Iron Man, Thor and the Hulk were highly resistant to damage, with the Hulk at the top. Captain America could resist damage, but only when he had the shield in the way. The Hulk could super-leap, but not fly. Iron Man and Thor had directed energy blasts while Cap and Hawkeye had more modest weapons. Hawkeye had a ton of trick arrows, and Black Widow had her Widow’s Bite and manipulation skills. This is hardly like the scene in Iron Man 2 where two guys in similar armor were fighting side by side. > [@](#): > > They really needed to give the characters use their individual abilities in creative ways during the fights to make them seem more unique. Obviously different people will have different views, but you’re complaining about what most people see this movie as having in abundance. The whole point of the third act was them using their strengths to contribute to the goal of repelling the aliens. > [@](#): > > The plot seemed pretty generic. Evil bureaucrats getting in the heroes way. A super-power object for everyone to fight over. The goody-two-shoes character and the bad-boy are at odds for a while. Yawn And Romeo and Juliet is about some kids who really want to fuck, but their parents hate each other. Yawn. :rolleyes: > [@](#): > > The final battle really needed some sort of objective for the alien invaders to try for. They rush through the gate in random bunches and just sort of wander around shooting up the place, making the battle seem pointless. They didn’t even try and secure the portal opening machine. And they weren’t particularly threatening. Some guy kills like 30 of them with a bow and arrow. I was left feeling like the US gov’t could’ve just dispensed with the superhero team and uber-missiles and just sent in a couple thousand marines to fight it out. Aside from the fact that the military was at least an hour out (as stated specifically in the film) I’d probably put my money on the flying chariots with energy blasters. I assume if the Avengers hadn’t shown up Loki’s plan was to raze New York and then go on TV and demand the world’s surrender. He apparently didn’t realize that the humans were willing to nuke 8 million of their own people to stop him. > [@](#): > > It had some good bits. I really liked Loki and the actor that played him and the physical comedy was amusing. And flying aircraft carriers are always cool. But the good didn’t really outweigh the bad for me. Obviously most peoples mileage varies. Everyone has the right to their opinion. No matter how weird. 😃 ---
**Author:** ![silenus](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/silenus/32/166_2.png) [@silenus](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/silenus)\ **Post date:** [May 18, 2012, 4:21pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/ok-ive-seen-the-avengers-open-spoilers/621234/352 "2012-05-18T16:21:37Z")
> [@Lobohan](#): > > Aside from that, there are only so many types of super heroes. Flying strength based heroes are common. Most also have an energy blast. Superman, Gladiator, Captain Marvel, Captian Britain, etc, etc. Having similar strength-based powers isn’t some horrible failure. The differences that are important are the character’s persona, and special effects. They play with this a bit in PS238: –_Julie, code-named “84,” The 84th person with the standard FISS (flight, invulnerability, speed, strength) powers. Like Atlas, she is affected by Argonite. She is friends with both Moon Shadow and Tyler, but does not realize they are really the same person._ ---
**Author:** ![MegaBee](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/f0a364/32.png) [@MegaBee](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/MegaBee)\ **Post date:** [May 18, 2012, 4:31pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/ok-ive-seen-the-avengers-open-spoilers/621234/353 "2012-05-18T16:31:19Z")
> [@Double\_Foolscap](#): > > I’m fairly sure adamantium was created after an attempt to replicate the alloy used in Captain America’s shield. That’s what [Wikipedia](http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Adamantium) tells me, although it needs a citation. > > Plus it’s explicitly stated to be vibranium in the Captain America film. That’s correct. In the comics, Cap’s shield is an alloy of vibranium and an unknown metal (Dr. Myron McLain fell asleep during the alloying process and didn’t take good notes). ---
**Author:** ![jayjay](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/jayjay/32/6765_2.png) [@jayjay](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/jayjay)\ **Post date:** [May 18, 2012, 4:37pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/ok-ive-seen-the-avengers-open-spoilers/621234/354 "2012-05-18T16:37:06Z")
> [@MegaBee](#): > > That’s correct. In the comics, Cap’s shield is an alloy of vibranium and an unknown metal (Dr. Myron McLain fell asleep during the alloying process and didn’t take good notes). Wakandan vibraniun or Savage Land vibranium? My comic geek cred is going to take a hit here but I can’t remember which it was or which is which at the moment. ---
**Author:** ![Babale](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/babale/32/15666_2.png) [@Babale](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Babale)\ **Post date:** [May 18, 2012, 4:46pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/ok-ive-seen-the-avengers-open-spoilers/621234/355 "2012-05-18T16:46:16Z")
Wait wait wait. So if the Hulk is unkillable (as per posts on the last page), how did he kill the big mutant Hulk guy in _The Incredible Hulk_? I mean, they were both formed the same way, only the other other guy was even bigger and stronger. So how come HE can die? ---
**Author:** ![Chronos](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/chronos/32/134_2.png) [@Chronos](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Chronos)\ **Post date:** [May 18, 2012, 4:48pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/ok-ive-seen-the-avengers-open-spoilers/621234/356 "2012-05-18T16:48:12Z")
Really, the pseudoscientific bit about Cap’s shield isn’t the absorbing of energy (which _any_ material can do), but the absorbing of momentum (which ultimately ends up violating most known conservation laws). But in a comic book movie, I can go with it. Also, for the scene where Thor drops the hammer on Cap: Per the comic canon, Thor’s hammer is awfully darn powerful, but Cap’s shield is an absolute: It _cannot_ be destroyed, it _cannot_ be smashed into his face, etc. If the Living Tribunal decided to smash the Earth between a pair of antimatter planets moving at hyperluminous speed, when all the dust (or rather, high-energy gamma rays) had settled, Cap’s shield (and Wolverine’s skeleton and a handful of other artifacts) would still be intact. ---
**Author:** ![The\_Other\_Waldo\_Pepper](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/the_other_waldo_pepper/32/12370_2.png) [@The\_Other\_Waldo\_Pepper](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/The_Other_Waldo_Pepper)\ **Post date:** [May 18, 2012, 4:51pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/ok-ive-seen-the-avengers-open-spoilers/621234/357 "2012-05-18T16:51:45Z")
> [@Chronos](#): > > Really, the pseudoscientific bit about Cap’s shield isn’t the absorbing of energy (which _any_ material can do), but the absorbing of momentum (which ultimately ends up violating most known conservation laws). But in a comic book movie, I can go with it. In the movie, it seemed more like his shield was reflecting instead of absorbing. ---
**Author:** ![silenus](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/silenus/32/166_2.png) [@silenus](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/silenus)\ **Post date:** [May 18, 2012, 4:52pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/ok-ive-seen-the-avengers-open-spoilers/621234/358 "2012-05-18T16:52:01Z")
Yet even those _have been_ destroyed, in canon. ---
**Author:** ![CaptMurdock](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/captmurdock/32/11736_2.png) [@CaptMurdock](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/CaptMurdock)\ **Post date:** [May 18, 2012, 4:58pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/ok-ive-seen-the-avengers-open-spoilers/621234/359 "2012-05-18T16:58:27Z")
> [@jayjay](#): > > Wakandan vibraniun or Savage Land vibranium? My comic geek cred is going to take a hit here but I can’t remember which it was or which is which at the moment. Wakandan vibranium is what Cap’s shield is (at least partially) made of. Savage Land vibranium, otherwise known as “the Anti-Metal,” has a completely different effect – it sends out subsonic vibrations that disintegrate most other metals. ---
**Author:** ![cmkeller](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/cmkeller/32/118_2.png) [@cmkeller](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/cmkeller)\ **Post date:** [May 18, 2012, 5:06pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/ok-ive-seen-the-avengers-open-spoilers/621234/360 "2012-05-18T17:06:37Z")
Chronos: > [@](#): > > If the Living Tribunal decided to smash the Earth between a pair of antimatter planets moving at hyperluminous speed, when all the dust (or rather, high-energy gamma rays) had settled, Cap’s shield…would still be intact. I don’t think so. It was broken during the Secret Wars by a Beyonder-powered Doctor Doom. I imagine that the other cosmic-level beings in the Marvel Universe could muster that kind of power. In addition, the Molecule Man has been able to disintegrate the shield (and re-create it as well). [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/ok-ive-seen-the-avengers-open-spoilers/621234.md?page=17) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/ok-ive-seen-the-avengers-open-spoilers/621234.md?page=19)