# OK, I've seen The Avengers - open spoilers! **URL:** \ **Category:** Cafe Society\ **Created:** [May 8, 2012, 1:37am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/ok-ive-seen-the-avengers-open-spoilers/621234 "2012-05-08T01:37:12Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 3
**Author:** ![Blaster\_Master](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/cab0a1/32.png) [@Blaster\_Master](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Blaster_Master)\ **Post date:** [May 8, 2012, 3:52pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/ok-ive-seen-the-avengers-open-spoilers/621234/41 "2012-05-08T15:52:34Z")
I really enjoyed the movie, but I felt like the one thing that really could have been better was how Hawkeye was used in the film. All of the characters had been introduced previously in their own films except for him and Black Widow, which sort of makes sense since neither of them is a super hero, but even she had a much larger introduction in Iron Man 2 and was established as a super spy and having awesome fighting skills. All I remember of Hawkeye previous to this film was a brief cameo in Thor where he didn’t even actually do anything, he just had his arrow pointed at Thor. So, great, all the general audience knows about him going into this movie is that he’s a S.H.I.E.L.D. agent that uses a bow. That’s fine, I can deal with him not having a whole lot of backstory in the universe, but with that sort of disadvantage about having any sort of connection with him from the audience, I felt having him get immediately mind controlled and essentially being a bad guy for the first half of the movie made it impossible to be sympathetic toward his character or even see how he could be a positive for the team since he was actively working against them, albeit against his will, for much of the film. At least Black Widow had demonstrated her spy interrogation ability a couple times, including on Loki, at that point and she was even the one who beat Hawkeye and knocked sense into him. Even in the last scene, I never really felt impressed by his contribution to the teams efforts. Yeah, he was taking out some of the Chitauri with his bow, but his big hurrah was using an explosive arrow to knock Loki off his rider. Compare that to what the others did. Hulk and Thor each took down a few flying dragons and bashed a bunch of soldiers, Captain America beat up a bunch and helped coordinate the attack and pretected a bunch of civilians. Iron Man took out a dragon or two and guided the nuke into the mother ship. Even Black Widow took out as many of the soldiers and was the one who took out the portal generator. Hawkeye contributed the least by far. I mostly just felt like he was a complete waste, like he’s the Aquaman of the Avengers and just sort of there because they felt like they needed another non-superpowered member to interact with Black Widow. The least they could have done was give him some moment where he did something that wouldn’t have otherwise happened if he wasn’t there. That all said, I probably rambled about it more than it really deserves, and that I think the weakest part of the film is that only one of the 8 major players (including Fury and Loki) was underutilized, I think that’s still pretty good. One very minor nitpick, I would have liked to at least have seen a mention of War Machine akin to what they did with Natalie Portman’s character from Thor with a throw away line. It makes sense that he wasn’t there, since it took place in Manhattan and he appears to be stationed at Edwards AFB in California, but it would have at least been nice to get a throw away line for him on why he wasn’t considered for Avengers or had been and had refused or been rejected or whatever. On a positive note, I quite impressed with Mark Ruffalo’s performance. I initially wasn’t happy to see that Edward Norton didn’t make the film since I’m generally a big fan of his work and not as much of his and I felt like it might hurt the continuity a bit with a different look and a slightly different interpretation. However, I actually think he did a better job with the role than Norton had in the Incredible Hulk. I’d really like to see him pick up from there. Since Iron Man 3 is the next movie in this set and Stark seemed to take a liking to him, presumably he’ll be a major player in that movie rather than get his own sequel. ---
**Author:** ![MrDibble](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/mrdibble/32/114_2.png) [@MrDibble](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/MrDibble)\ **Post date:** [May 8, 2012, 4:07pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/ok-ive-seen-the-avengers-open-spoilers/621234/42 "2012-05-08T16:07:02Z")
Wasp _now_ is going to seem a little bit derivative of Angel Salvatore from X-Men: First Class, despite the additional shrinking gimmick. And IMO, miniaturisation is just cheesy, I think that Wasp and Ant-Man are likely ruled out for that reason alone. Just like I don’t think we’ll see a major Atom movie anytime soon. ---
**Author:** ![MrDibble](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/mrdibble/32/114_2.png) [@MrDibble](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/MrDibble)\ **Post date:** [May 8, 2012, 4:11pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/ok-ive-seen-the-avengers-open-spoilers/621234/43 "2012-05-08T16:11:42Z")
I should add, I think Pym would make a great _antagonist_ for a future movie. Guy is a dick in the Ultimates universe these movies take a lot of inspiration from. As for Hawkeye, I never felt he was superfluous, and also, I got sympathy for him being controlled entirely from BW’s concern for him. Which Scarlett Johannsson conveyed very well, IMO. ---
**Author:** ![RikWriter](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/49beb7/32.png) [@RikWriter](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/RikWriter)\ **Post date:** [May 8, 2012, 4:24pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/ok-ive-seen-the-avengers-open-spoilers/621234/44 "2012-05-08T16:24:51Z")
> [@MrDibble](#): > > I should add, I think Pym would make a great _antagonist_ for a future movie. Guy is a dick in the Ultimates universe these movies take a lot of inspiration from. One of my favorite bits from The Ultimates was when Captain America beat the SHIT out of Hank Pym while he was in Giant Man form. ---
**Author:** ![Le\_Ministre\_de\_l\_au-dela](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/le_ministre_de_l_au-dela/32/12181_2.png) [@Le\_Ministre\_de\_l\_au-dela](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Le_Ministre_de_l_au-dela)\ **Post date:** [May 8, 2012, 4:33pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/ok-ive-seen-the-avengers-open-spoilers/621234/45 "2012-05-08T16:33:55Z")
> [@Loach](#): > > No significance, Whedon just thought he would be perfect in the role. > > [THE AVENGERS: Joss Whedon On Harry Dean Stanton's Cameo; Why He Was Chosen For His Scene With Mark Ruffalo](http://www.comicbookmovie.com/fansites/rorschachsrants/news/?a=59032) Ah, many thanks for that. The way everyone in the theatre reacted gave me the impression that Harry Dean Stanton had voiced The Hulk or played the role somewhere along the line. ---
**Author:** ![Crown\_Prince\_of\_Irony](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/ed655f/32.png) [@Crown\_Prince\_of\_Irony](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Crown_Prince_of_Irony)\ **Post date:** [May 8, 2012, 4:38pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/ok-ive-seen-the-avengers-open-spoilers/621234/46 "2012-05-08T16:38:27Z")
> [@Le\_Ministre\_de\_l\_au-dela](#): > > Ah, many thanks for that. The way everyone in the theatre reacted gave me the impression that Harry Dean Stanton had voiced The Hulk or played the role somewhere along the line. Wow - that would have been awesome. ---
**Author:** ![Quimby](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/q/22d042/32.png) [@Quimby](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Quimby)\ **Post date:** [May 8, 2012, 4:39pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/ok-ive-seen-the-avengers-open-spoilers/621234/47 "2012-05-08T16:39:18Z")
> [@StusBlues](#): > > Speaking of the Hulk, I have a question about the battered motorcycle that Bruce Banner rides into the Manhattan conflagration. Is this an allusion to something? Whedon lingers on the shot of Banner and the bike a bit longer than I would think for a “here’s Hulk” moment. Has Banner ever had a bike like that in the comics? Or might this be a reference to something Ruffalo (or Harry Dean Stanton) had done previously? I think it was meant to be a joke because everyone else gathered in a flashy, super powered way and here he comes puttering along… ---
**Author:** ![StusBlues](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/dc4da7/32.png) [@StusBlues](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/StusBlues)\ **Post date:** [May 8, 2012, 4:44pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/ok-ive-seen-the-avengers-open-spoilers/621234/48 "2012-05-08T16:44:21Z")
> [@Loach](#): > > No significance, Whedon just thought he would be perfect in the role. > > [THE AVENGERS: Joss Whedon On Harry Dean Stanton's Cameo; Why He Was Chosen For His Scene With Mark Ruffalo](http://www.comicbookmovie.com/fansites/rorschachsrants/news/?a=59032) He also looked a WHOLE lot like early renditions of the Tinkerer… But, yeah, I think it was just because Harry Dean Stanton is awesome regardless. I’d just watched ‘Repo Man’ the preceding week, so my HDS pump was primed. ---
**Author:** ![Malacandra](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/45deac/32.png) [@Malacandra](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Malacandra)\ **Post date:** [May 8, 2012, 4:47pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/ok-ive-seen-the-avengers-open-spoilers/621234/49 "2012-05-08T16:47:26Z")
I very much liked the bit where Thor whacks Cap’s shield for all he is worth with Mjolnir. Irresistible force, meet immovable object. 😃 ---
**Author:** ![Chronos](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/chronos/32/134_2.png) [@Chronos](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Chronos)\ **Post date:** [May 8, 2012, 5:11pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/ok-ive-seen-the-avengers-open-spoilers/621234/50 "2012-05-08T17:11:26Z")
I didn’t get the impression that Black Widow and Hawkeye were officially Avengers, per se: Rather, SHIELD was throwing everything they had at this invasion, because they were desperate and not fully ready: That meant the four heavies, plus the two baddest-ass badass normals they had available. And I’ll agree that Hawkeye got the short end of the proverbial shaft, but then, it’s amazing that they managed to cram so much awesome into seven different characters-- Complaining that it wasn’t eight is a bit short-sighted, I think. And his primary contribution in the final battle wasn’t his shooting (though of course that helped), but his being an “eye in the sky” to coordinate everyone else (like when he tells Iron Man that the alien scooter-things can’t corner worth a damn). As far as other films go, I wouldn’t mind seeing a Hawkeye/Black Widow prequel. “Just like Budapest!” “You and I have very different memories of Budapest.” Of course, it’d be more of a spy thriller than a superhero movie, but that’s OK. ---
**Author:** ![Ethilrist](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/ethilrist/32/4604_2.png) [@Ethilrist](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Ethilrist)\ **Post date:** [May 8, 2012, 5:24pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/ok-ive-seen-the-avengers-open-spoilers/621234/51 "2012-05-08T17:24:21Z")
> [@StusBlues](#): > > Which is too bad, because it was funnier than the beat-down itself. > > Speaking of the Hulk, I have a question about the battered motorcycle that Bruce Banner rides into the Manhattan conflagration. Is this an allusion to something? Whedon lingers on the shot of Banner and the bike a bit longer than I would think for a “here’s Hulk” moment. Has Banner ever had a bike like that in the comics? Or might this be a reference to something Ruffalo (or Harry Dean Stanton) had done previously? I figured riding up on the bike was actually a Captain American reference. Also, Stanton provides the exposition that Hulk seemed to be specifically avoiding hurting people when he crashed; he aimed for an abandoned building that just had a bunch of birds in it, showing (again) that the Hulk isn’t the mindless monster that everybody thinks he is. ---
**Author:** ![Soylent\_Juicy](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/82dd89/32.png) [@Soylent\_Juicy](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Soylent_Juicy)\ **Post date:** [May 8, 2012, 5:36pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/ok-ive-seen-the-avengers-open-spoilers/621234/52 "2012-05-08T17:36:43Z")
My favourite line: \*\*“That man is playing Galaga!” \*\* I’ve been randomly giggling and saying it to my husband ever since. I also thought it was hilarious when The Hulk couldn’t pick up Thor’s hammer. ---
**Author:** ![gytalf2000](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/g/ac91a4/32.png) [@gytalf2000](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/gytalf2000)\ **Post date:** [May 8, 2012, 5:39pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/ok-ive-seen-the-avengers-open-spoilers/621234/53 "2012-05-08T17:39:51Z")
> [@MrDibble](#): > > Wasp _now_ is going to seem a little bit derivative of Angel Salvatore from X-Men: First Class, despite the additional shrinking gimmick. And IMO, miniaturisation is just cheesy, I think that Wasp and Ant-Man are likely ruled out for that reason alone. Just like I don’t think we’ll see a major Atom movie anytime soon. I would love to see the Wasp – I like the “sexy shrinking girl” gimmick, myself. I suppose she could bring Hank along, too; but I would rather just have the Wasp! ---
**Author:** ![Bakhesh](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/3da27b/32.png) [@Bakhesh](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Bakhesh)\ **Post date:** [May 8, 2012, 6:03pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/ok-ive-seen-the-avengers-open-spoilers/621234/54 "2012-05-08T18:03:03Z")
> [@StusBlues](#): > > Which is too bad, because it was funnier than the beat-down itself. > > Speaking of the Hulk, I have a question about the battered motorcycle that Bruce Banner rides into the Manhattan conflagration. Is this an allusion to something? Whedon lingers on the shot of Banner and the bike a bit longer than I would think for a “here’s Hulk” moment. Has Banner ever had a bike like that in the comics? Or might this be a reference to something Ruffalo (or Harry Dean Stanton) had done previously? Seeing as you ask, that scene was a bit reminiscent of Hulk #373, when Bruce steals a motorbike to escape the police. Betty comments about “I didn’t know you could ride a motorbike”, and Bruce says “Rick once gave him a lesson” before puttering and weaving off down the road The scene in the movie immediately reminded me of that comic, but its a bit of an obscure reference TBH ---
**Author:** ![StusBlues](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/dc4da7/32.png) [@StusBlues](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/StusBlues)\ **Post date:** [May 8, 2012, 6:08pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/ok-ive-seen-the-avengers-open-spoilers/621234/55 "2012-05-08T18:08:01Z")
> [@Ethilrist](#): > > I figured riding up on the bike was actually a Captain American reference. Also, Stanton provides the exposition that Hulk seemed to be specifically avoiding hurting people when he crashed; he aimed for an abandoned building that just had a bunch of birds in it, showing (again) that the Hulk isn’t the mindless monster that everybody thinks he is. > [@Bakhesh](#): > > Seeing as you ask, that scene was a bit reminiscent of Hulk #373, when Bruce steals a motorbike to escape the police. Betty comments about “I didn’t know you could ride a motorbike”, and Bruce says “Rick once gave him a lesson” before puttering and weaving off down the road > > The scene in the movie immediately reminded me of that comic, but its a bit of an obscure reference TBH I got the Cap reference, and it’s good that they showed him riding off on his bike–vintage Steve Rogers. And, yes, Stanton does give Bruce the idea that the Hulk may not be as bad as he’s cracked up to be. **Bakhesh** , that may be the reference I’m looking for. Another friend of mine thought Rick Jones did some riding in his time, so that might be the thing. Obscure, yes, but it is Whedon. Thanks! ---
**Author:** ![KneadToKnow](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/kneadtoknow/32/3999_2.png) [@KneadToKnow](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/KneadToKnow)\ **Post date:** [May 8, 2012, 7:00pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/ok-ive-seen-the-avengers-open-spoilers/621234/56 "2012-05-08T19:00:14Z")
Doesn’t either Banner or Rick ride a motorcycle out to the blast site in _Hulk #1_? Perhaps that figures into the choice, also. Is nobody going to comment on the shawarma-eating scene? I guffawed, even though I was sure the post-credits scene was going to be the Galaga dude again. ---
**Author:** ![drastic\_quench](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/e36b37/32.png) [@drastic\_quench](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/drastic_quench)\ **Post date:** [May 8, 2012, 7:08pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/ok-ive-seen-the-avengers-open-spoilers/621234/57 "2012-05-08T19:08:54Z")
Easily 60% of the packed theater I was in left after Thanos. WTF? Had they never seen a Marvel movie before? Everyone who stayed laughed at it like a Seth MacFarlane bit where if it keeps going long enough it gets funny again. ---
**Author:** ![KneadToKnow](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/kneadtoknow/32/3999_2.png) [@KneadToKnow](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/KneadToKnow)\ **Post date:** [May 8, 2012, 7:10pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/ok-ive-seen-the-avengers-open-spoilers/621234/58 "2012-05-08T19:10:35Z")
> [@drastic\_quench](#): > > Everyone who stayed laughed at it like a Seth MacFarlane bit where if it keeps going long enough it gets funny again. Yup. The laughter was starting to die down when Black Widow sort of sighed and took another bite, and we all started up again. ---
**Author:** ![Elendil\_s\_Heir](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/7cd45c/32.png) [@Elendil\_s\_Heir](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Elendil_s_Heir)\ **Post date:** [May 8, 2012, 7:56pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/ok-ive-seen-the-avengers-open-spoilers/621234/59 "2012-05-08T19:56:43Z")
> [@KneadToKnow](#): > > Yup. The laughter was starting to die down when Black Widow sort of sighed and took another bite, and we all started up again. LOL. I noticed Thor stared at his sandwich for awhile before taking another bite. The longer that scene went, the funnier it got. So quiet and downbeat after two-plus hours of over-the-top action. I’d actually never heard of shawarma before - Wiki says it’s the same thing as a gyro: [Shawarma - Wikipedia](http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Shawarma) ---
**Author:** ![It\_s\_Not\_Rocket\_Surgery](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/it_s_not_rocket_surgery/32/312_2.png) [@It\_s\_Not\_Rocket\_Surgery](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/It_s_Not_Rocket_Surgery)\ **Post date:** [May 8, 2012, 8:55pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/ok-ive-seen-the-avengers-open-spoilers/621234/60 "2012-05-08T20:55:35Z")
One of my favorite lines has yet to be mentioned: “Buckle up, Legolas!” [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/ok-ive-seen-the-avengers-open-spoilers/621234.md?page=2) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/ok-ive-seen-the-avengers-open-spoilers/621234.md?page=4)