# OK, I've seen The Avengers - open spoilers! **URL:** \ **Category:** Cafe Society\ **Created:** [May 8, 2012, 1:37am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/ok-ive-seen-the-avengers-open-spoilers/621234 "2012-05-08T01:37:12Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 5
**Author:** ![Flutterby](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/f/6f9a4e/32.png) [@Flutterby](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Flutterby)\ **Post date:** [May 9, 2012, 5:04am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/ok-ive-seen-the-avengers-open-spoilers/621234/81 "2012-05-09T05:04:43Z")
> [@silenus](#): > > 1. He went to Burger King, not McDs. > > 2. He might know schwarma as a gyro. 1. I forgot, been awhile since I watched Iron Man. 2. Maybe its just here but schwarma is different from a donair/gyro. In the end it’s all meat cooked on a stick and put in a pita or pita type bread but IME they are different. ---
**Author:** ![obfusciatrist](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/o/4af34b/32.png) [@obfusciatrist](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/obfusciatrist)\ **Post date:** [May 9, 2012, 5:11am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/ok-ive-seen-the-avengers-open-spoilers/621234/82 "2012-05-09T05:11:29Z")
For the record, I was making a bad joke. That said, I find it unlikely that Tony Stark would be unfamiliar with the food (but that’s moot, the joke is good). ---
**Author:** ![drastic\_quench](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/e36b37/32.png) [@drastic\_quench](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/drastic_quench)\ **Post date:** [May 9, 2012, 6:22am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/ok-ive-seen-the-avengers-open-spoilers/621234/83 "2012-05-09T06:22:53Z")
I was also struck by just how shaken Black Widow was after being chased by Hulk. By the time they cut back to her, she’d literally been curled up in a ball in shock for minutes. It really underscored how much of a nightmare Hulk can be. ---
**Author:** ![bienville](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/4bbf92/32.png) [@bienville](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/bienville)\ **Post date:** [May 9, 2012, 10:34am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/ok-ive-seen-the-avengers-open-spoilers/621234/84 "2012-05-09T10:34:36Z")
> [@srm13](#): > > Norton turning down the role is possibly the best thing that could have happened to the Avengers. His mannerisms as the mild mannered Bruce Banner were way better than the skittery near-Hulk Norton played. I’m among the few who really liked the 2008 _The Incredible Hulk_ and I thought Edward Norton did a wonderful job. But the difference between Banner/Hulk in _The Incredible Hulk_ and Banner/Hulk in _The Avengers_ is FAR more signifiant than lost actor continuity. Compare to Col. Rhodes from the Iron Man movies: Terrence Howard and Don Cheadle each brought something different to the role, but they were each presenting a realization of essentially the same character. For _Iron Man II_, screenwriter Justin Theroux wrote Rhodey consistent with the character from _Iron Man_ and Jon Favreau directed Cheadle for a performance that was consistent with the character from the first movie. Each actor brought their own nuance to the character, but I could easily imagine Howard’s Rhodey in place of Cheadle’s in _Iron Man II_. Likewise, I could easily imagine Cheadle’s Rhodey in place of Howard’s in _Iron Man_. I can _not_ say the same for the two different interpretations of Banner/Hulk. Norton’s Banner was great in _The Incredible Hulk_ but would not at all have worked in _The Avengers_. Ruffalo’s Banner would not have worked in _The Incredible Hulk_- not at all. Imagining Ruffalo (who I quite like as an actor) as Banner in the 2008 movie had me very wary to accept him in _The Avengers_. I just felt he was not at all right for the role. But the character in _The Avengers_ was so very different from the character in the 2008 movie all the way from the screenplay stage then, on top of that, the character was very different as interpretted by the director. Add a different actor on top of all that and we’ve got an entirely different interpretation of Bruce Banner- almost as much as to make the 2008 movie no more in-universe with _The Avengers_ than the 2003 movie. Part of the character difference come from Banner now being angry all the time. Now, this difference has an in-universe explanation in that Banner has discovered he can use a constant anger to better control The Hulk. He had not yet come to this realization in the previous film so Norton had no proper reason to play that under the surface anger that Ruffalo played so well. But other things were different too. Banner’s cynicism in _The Avengers_ seemed more directed at the world rather than just at the military/Government. Banner’s awareness of the various string-pulling powers-that-be was far more sophisticated in _The Avengers_. Most significant: in the 2008 film, Banner was a brilliant and talented scientist _in his field_ while in _The Avengers_ he was a full on genius. The Hulk was very different in the two films as well. First of all, he was taller in the 2008 movie- I’d say a full foot taller, easily. Most notably: he _moved_ entirely differently. Now this was the first time Hulk was done as a motion capture performed by the same actor as Banner. Ruffalo gave Hulk very ape-like movements and mannerisms. I don’t know if the ape-like performance has any basis in previous animated presentations of the character, but it is entirely inconsistent with the Hulk of the 2008 movie- in that movie the Hulk stood upright and walked like a man. Ruffalo completely re-invented the physicality and mannerisms of the Hulk. So, personally, I’m going to kind of remove the 2008 movie from the in-universe series. It really is an entirely different interpretation. ---
**Author:** ![cmkeller](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/cmkeller/32/118_2.png) [@cmkeller](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/cmkeller)\ **Post date:** [May 9, 2012, 12:01pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/ok-ive-seen-the-avengers-open-spoilers/621234/85 "2012-05-09T12:01:29Z")
Maybe, now that Marvel is part of Disney, Rick Moranis could be Henry Pym, and the “Honey I Shrunk the Kids” franchise could be tied into the Avengers universe. ---
**Author:** ![FoieGrasIsEvil](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/foiegrasisevil/32/16638_2.png) [@FoieGrasIsEvil](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/FoieGrasIsEvil)\ **Post date:** [May 9, 2012, 1:16pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/ok-ive-seen-the-avengers-open-spoilers/621234/86 "2012-05-09T13:16:29Z")
> [@cmkeller](#): > > Maybe, now that Marvel is part of Disney, Rick Moranis could be Henry Pym, and the “Honey I Shrunk the Kids” franchise could be tied into the Avengers universe. Don’t give them any ideas! Anyway, I’d like to see an Avengers movie where the good guys do battle with Dark Helmet and Mega Maid. ---
**Author:** ![Mr.Excellent](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/f19dbf/32.png) [@Mr.Excellent](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Mr.Excellent)\ **Post date:** [May 9, 2012, 1:29pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/ok-ive-seen-the-avengers-open-spoilers/621234/87 "2012-05-09T13:29:20Z")
> [@Blaster\_Master](#): > > IOn a positive note, I quite impressed with Mark Ruffalo’s performance. I initially wasn’t happy to see that Edward Norton didn’t make the film since I’m generally a big fan of his work and not as much of his and I felt like it might hurt the continuity a bit with a different look and a slightly different interpretation. However, I actually think he did a better job with the role than Norton had in the Incredible Hulk. I’d really like to see him pick up from there. Since Iron Man 3 is the next movie in this set and Stark seemed to take a liking to him, presumably he’ll be a major player in that movie rather than get his own sequel. I thought Ruffalo did a fine job with the character as well - he was very convincing as a nice, soft-spoken man trying very hard not to blow up at the very stupid people around him. I had a law school prof a lot like Ruffalo’s Bruce Banner. ---
**Author:** ![Mollie\_Magill](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/mollie_magill/32/20882_2.png) [@Mollie\_Magill](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Mollie_Magill)\ **Post date:** [May 9, 2012, 1:38pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/ok-ive-seen-the-avengers-open-spoilers/621234/88 "2012-05-09T13:38:18Z")
> [@drastic\_quench](#): > > I was also struck by just how shaken Black Widow was after being chased by Hulk. By the time they cut back to her, she’d literally been curled up in a ball in shock for minutes. It really underscored how much of a nightmare Hulk can be. You should also take into account that she had just been swatted like a fly, too. ---
**Author:** ![Mr.Excellent](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/f19dbf/32.png) [@Mr.Excellent](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Mr.Excellent)\ **Post date:** [May 9, 2012, 1:51pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/ok-ive-seen-the-avengers-open-spoilers/621234/89 "2012-05-09T13:51:56Z")
> [@Flutterby](#): > > Well, I doubt his captors were telling him what they were feeding him. It doesn’t seem like something that would come up. > > ‘What the hell kind of slop are you feeding me?’ > ‘Schwarma, shut up and eat’ Actually, I can see something like that happening. I mean, these guys are spending hours on end together in a crappy cave - eventually, human nature says they’re going to start talking. Wouldn’t surprise me at all to learn that Stark knew a bit about his guards by the time he left - names, who had kids, etc. > [@drastic\_quench](#): > > I was also struck by just how shaken Black Widow was after being chased by Hulk. By the time they cut back to her, she’d literally been curled up in a ball in shock for minutes. It really underscored how much of a nightmare Hulk can be. Agreed. I also liked the way that she _immediately_ drew and aimed her gun in the village where she met Banner, when he pretended he was about to lose his temper. No attempt to talk him down, no hesitation - it did a fine job of showing just how scared Black Widow was of this guy. (And also how exceedingly tough she is - right before she draws her gun, she seems perfectly calm, cool, and collected). ---
**Author:** ![Sir\_T-Cups](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/ed655f/32.png) [@Sir\_T-Cups](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Sir_T-Cups)\ **Post date:** [May 9, 2012, 2:13pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/ok-ive-seen-the-avengers-open-spoilers/621234/90 "2012-05-09T14:13:49Z")
Anyone care to explain to me how if Banner is “angry all the time” and can apparently control the Hulk so easily as he did in the final battle scene why he was so scared to turn into the Hulk throughout the whole movie? Also why did he turn into Hulk in the first place when he chased Black Widow around? It seemed awfully convenient that he magically discovered how to control Hulk by the time the end of the movie came. ---
**Author:** ![Mr.Excellent](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/f19dbf/32.png) [@Mr.Excellent](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Mr.Excellent)\ **Post date:** [May 9, 2012, 2:27pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/ok-ive-seen-the-avengers-open-spoilers/621234/91 "2012-05-09T14:27:59Z")
> [@Sir\_T-Cups](#): > > Anyone care to explain to me how if Banner is “angry all the time” and can apparently control the Hulk so easily as he did in the final battle scene why he was so scared to turn into the Hulk throughout the whole movie? > > Also why did he turn into Hulk in the first place when he chased Black Widow around? > > It seemed awfully convenient that he magically discovered how to control Hulk by the time the end of the movie came. Well, we need a heaping load of suspension of disbelief here - remember, we’re talking about a guy who seems to gain a whole lot of mass out of _nowhere_ when he turns into the Hulk, and sheds it instantly when he reverts to normal. That said: My fanwank would be that the Hulk transition responds to sudden changes in “baseline” flight-or-fight hormone levels. If Bruce Banner is normally not at all angry, and then he gets angry - HULK SMASH! But if Banner is always angry, there’s not a sudden spike for the Hulk to respond to - Hulk doesn’t smash. The problem is that if Banner suddenly gets even more scared, or hurt, or angrier than normal, then we get a spike in flight-or-fight again, and Hulk smashes. The key for Banner is just maintaining a steady baseline, which is tricky no matter what - but for him, I guess it’s easier to maintain a steady level of pissed-off than Zen calm. ---
**Author:** ![Bakhesh](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/3da27b/32.png) [@Bakhesh](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Bakhesh)\ **Post date:** [May 9, 2012, 2:28pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/ok-ive-seen-the-avengers-open-spoilers/621234/92 "2012-05-09T14:28:43Z")
My take on it was, Hulk just likes to smash. On the Helicarrier, he didn’t care that he was surrounded by friends, he just wanted to smash. At the end, there were plenty of other guys to smash, so he had plenty to keep him busy. I think this was why he punched Thor. He had already smashed all of the Chitari in the room, but still wanted to smash. Thor was just the only person left worth hitting. There tends to be a bit of a handover when Banner changes into Hulk. On the Helicarrier, Banner was having his head messed with by Loki’s staff, so when he became the Hulk, that aggression towards Shield was still there. At the end, Banner was move focussed on the Chitari, so this bled over to the hulk personality too. I think Banner naturally wants to avoid becoming the Hulk, as he is a bit of an introvert, and hulking out lets everyone see what is going on beneath his calm exterior. It is probably extremely embarrassing for a guy like that. Also, its worth mentioning that the Hulk and Banner have changed many, many times in the comics. Completely mindless, angry Hulk is only one of his incarnations. He’s as smart as Banner some times, and pretty much everything in between. Banner is essentially a multiple personality disorder, who just happens to have a gamma irradiated persona. Banner’s mindset has probably changed as often as the hulk over the years, which I think accounts for any differences between Nortonhulk and Huffalo ---
**Author:** ![MsWhatsit](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/eb8c5e/32.png) [@MsWhatsit](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/MsWhatsit)\ **Post date:** [May 9, 2012, 2:30pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/ok-ive-seen-the-avengers-open-spoilers/621234/93 "2012-05-09T14:30:03Z")
My feeling is that if Banner loses control and unexpectedly Hulks out, he loses control and starts randomly smashing things. If he Hulks out on purpose, he’s in control and only smashes the things he wants to smash. That may just be fanwankery, but I think it sort of works. ---
**Author:** ![Mollie\_Magill](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/mollie_magill/32/20882_2.png) [@Mollie\_Magill](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Mollie_Magill)\ **Post date:** [May 9, 2012, 2:59pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/ok-ive-seen-the-avengers-open-spoilers/621234/94 "2012-05-09T14:59:10Z")
Think of the Hulk as a four yer old. When a four year old is having tantrum, the worst thing you can do is to tell them to clam down Right Now. That just makes the tantrum worse. When he first turns into the Hulk on the Helicarrier, notice how it takes a long time to change. I think it was because he was trying to force himself to calm down. That makes The Other Guy want to come out more. And then you have Black Widow telling him that he calm down. He Knows That. The Other Guy is getting pissed at her, too. He finally yells at her to get away, and he loses control. The Hulk comes out, and where’s that puny human who wouldn’t shut up? At the end, Banner doesn’t control the Hulk so much as aim him. He wills the change, which comes very quickly and smoothly. My $0.02. ---
**Author:** ![The\_Other\_Waldo\_Pepper](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/the_other_waldo_pepper/32/12370_2.png) [@The\_Other\_Waldo\_Pepper](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/The_Other_Waldo_Pepper)\ **Post date:** [May 9, 2012, 3:01pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/ok-ive-seen-the-avengers-open-spoilers/621234/95 "2012-05-09T15:01:40Z")
> [@Bakhesh](#): > > Also, its worth mentioning that the Hulk and Banner have changed many, many times in the comics. Completely mindless, angry Hulk is only one of his incarnations. He’s as smart as Banner some times, and pretty much everything in between. Banner is essentially a multiple personality disorder, who just happens to have a gamma irradiated persona. For what it’s worth, they even did a disturbing WHAT IF with Banner as an aggressive wife-beater who can be provoked into temporarily becoming – a peaceful and childlike superhuman, which he exploits to further his career: impressing the military by (a) infallibly ‘deducing’ where the next monster-sighting will occur, before (b) deliberately cutting his hand open or whatever, inflicting enough pain to make the scary-looking creature appear, and cue the collateral damage when all the soldiers fire at him and he panickedly rushes off the military base, and what the hell was he doing there anyway, is this some kind of commie plot, get me Banner, we need Banner! Give the man anything he wants! ---
**Author:** ![Woeg](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/w/df705f/32.png) [@Woeg](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Woeg)\ **Post date:** [May 9, 2012, 3:07pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/ok-ive-seen-the-avengers-open-spoilers/621234/96 "2012-05-09T15:07:12Z")
> [@MsWhatsit](#): > > My feeling is that if Banner loses control and unexpectedly Hulks out, he loses control and starts randomly smashing things. If he Hulks out on purpose, he’s in control and only smashes the things he wants to smash. > > That may just be fanwankery, but I think it sort of works. I do think this is somewhat backed up in the movie, with Stark encouraging Banner to embrace his “terrible privilege” - when he does, he retains more control of the Hulk. When he doesn’t (forced through stress/fear) he doesn’t. ---
**Author:** ![Bakhesh](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/3da27b/32.png) [@Bakhesh](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Bakhesh)\ **Post date:** [May 9, 2012, 3:09pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/ok-ive-seen-the-avengers-open-spoilers/621234/97 "2012-05-09T15:09:13Z")
> [@The\_Other\_Waldo\_Pepper](#): > > For what it’s worth, they even did a disturbing WHAT IF with Banner as an aggressive wife-beater who can be provoked into temporarily becoming – a peaceful and childlike superhuman, which he exploits to further his career: impressing the military by (a) infallibly ‘deducing’ where the next monster-sighting will occur, before (b) deliberately cutting his hand open or whatever, inflicting enough pain to make the scary-looking creature appear, and cue the collateral damage when all the soldiers fire at him and he panickedly rushes off the military base, and what the hell was he doing there anyway, is this some kind of commie plot, get me Banner, we need Banner! Give the man anything he wants! Also, during his Pantheon days, Doc Samson merged the Banner and the hulk’s personas (actually, it was two hulk personas, as the grey hulk was in play at the time), and he became permanently hulkified, but with Banners intellect (and a bit of Hulk’s anger, but much more stable). This went on for quite a long time, until someone shot Betty, at which point he got incredibly angry. This caused his mind to revert to to his angry hulk persona, but also caused his body to de-hulk. He ended up as a snarling, mono-syllabic Banner. He would still try to smash, but would just ended up hurting his hand ---
**Author:** ![JThunder](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/j/e95f7d/32.png) [@JThunder](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/JThunder)\ **Post date:** [May 9, 2012, 3:20pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/ok-ive-seen-the-avengers-open-spoilers/621234/98 "2012-05-09T15:20:52Z")
> [@drastic\_quench](#): > > I was also struck by just how shaken Black Widow was after being chased by Hulk. By the time they cut back to her, she’d literally been curled up in a ball in shock for minutes. It really underscored how much of a nightmare Hulk can be. > [@Mr.Excellent](#): > > Agreed. I also liked the way that she _immediately_ drew and aimed her gun in the village where she met Banner, when he pretended he was about to lose his temper. No attempt to talk him down, no hesitation - it did a fine job of showing just how scared Black Widow was of this guy. (And also how exceedingly tough she is - right before she draws her gun, she seems perfectly calm, cool, and collected). This was a truly excellent depiction of the Black Widow. She was tough, smart, strong, courageous, and exceedingly competent – yet even she cowered after being chased down by the Hulk. ---
**Author:** ![Chronos](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/chronos/32/134_2.png) [@Chronos](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Chronos)\ **Post date:** [May 9, 2012, 3:23pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/ok-ive-seen-the-avengers-open-spoilers/621234/99 "2012-05-09T15:23:37Z")
The bit with him crashing into the abandoned warehouse was also part of that. The guy who finds him tells him that he apparently aimed away from people while he was falling, which let Banner know that he still had some decency even as the Other Guy. I can see that being a handle that the can grasp for the next time. ---
**Author:** ![Tangent](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/tangent/32/3098_2.png) [@Tangent](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Tangent)\ **Post date:** [May 9, 2012, 3:25pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/ok-ive-seen-the-avengers-open-spoilers/621234/100 "2012-05-09T15:25:48Z")
> [@MsWhatsit](#): > > My feeling is that if Banner loses control and unexpectedly Hulks out, he loses control and starts randomly smashing things. If he Hulks out on purpose, he’s in control and only smashes the things he wants to smash. > > That may just be fanwankery, but I think it sort of works. I think that’s the best explanation, and it’s how it seemed to me while watching the movie. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/ok-ive-seen-the-avengers-open-spoilers/621234.md?page=4) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/ok-ive-seen-the-avengers-open-spoilers/621234.md?page=6)